New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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No, of course not. I phrased that wrong. As @DPLongo22 stated, most folks who come here do become more educated and are able to find the best vape style available and pay attention to safety.
And you're right, there are folks around here for several years who might not have spent much time thinking about this very issue and will find this useful. I hope even more so for new vapers who are still trying to figure out what works best for them.
We spend a lot of time on battery safety. We should be open to thinking about coil/tank/atomizer (whatever we're calling them this week) safety as well, although with far less data than a simple battery load calculation.
I am pondering it.
In my head a "Best Practices" document should be clear, and pretty much irrefutable. I think it should all be pretty clear cut stuff to maintain the credibility of the document.
I am reluctant to introduce concepts, into this particular document, that require subjective judgement. Anything even remotely "subjective" around here becomes fodder for the trolls....
I am a vaper for almost 2 years, I vape unflavoured e-liquids, 50/50, 150°C, SS316L 26GA, 6 ml/day and sometimes I get worried that "95% less harmful" figure is not real... That everytime happen after I read some posts on ECF...
Ya know what is the Best Way to not worry about Contaminates in your Tap Water is? Don't ever have it Tested.
Believing or Not Believing the Naked Statistic of 95% Less Harmful is up to you. But since the Author's of that statement Never said that "e-Cigarette" use was 100% Harmless, why is such a revelation that there might be, under certain circumstances, something that has the potential to cause harm?
If there are 40 Harmful Chemical Compounds found in Cigarette Smoke, and e-Cigarette Vapor, under certain circumstances, is found to produce 2 of them, can't I say that e-Cigarette Vapor is 95% Less Harmful?
Or if 95 out of 100 Vapors are Not Inhaling significant amounts of Harmful Compounds found in Cigarette Smoke, then on the Population Level, isn't the 95% Claim still valid?
I'm not sure where the Shift Occurred in the thinking? But for Years I have read 1,000's of Posts saying that e-Cigarette use was Harm Reduction. Then someone comes along and tries to Quantify under what circumstances such Harm may occur, and some People are Freaked Out.
Isn't this just the Reduction vs Elimination part of things? Or perhaps, the 5% on the Population Level?
Do remember, one of the great problems we have in society is the inability to understand relative risk. For so many folks it's either safe or unsafe. Anything in between, and all bets are off.
I like this thread because it gives me more information not less. I like to know what I don't. Good job, Keep it up
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Sent from my Z832 using Tapatalk
From the Royal College of Physicians, 11 St Andrews Place, Regent's Park, London NW1 4LE
"E-cigarettes and long-term harm - the possibility of some harm from long-term e-cigarette use cannot be dismissed due to inhalation of the ingredients other than nicotine, but is likely to be very small, and substantially smaller than that arising from tobacco smoking. With appropriate product standards to minimise exposure to the other ingredients, it should be possible to reduce risks of physical health still further. Although it is not possible to estimate the long-term health risks associated with e-cigarettes precisely, the available data suggest that they are unlikely to exceed 5% of those associated with smoked tobacco products, and may well be substantially lower than this figure."
This is all I have been promoting all along!
Read it again please ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The word "Relative" is an Incredible Misused/Misinterpreted word.
Relative to what?
Can I Define what the Absolute Risk is to an Individual who Smokes Cigarettes? If I Can't, then how would I define a Relative Risk for the same Individual if they used an e-Cigarette instead?
You are correct. Many People like Nice, Neat Boxes around Single Items where they can Point at it and say it is either Safe or Unsafe. Forget about the Part of Defining 1st what the meaning of "Safe" is.
Relative, to me, is a word like "Likely".
What, Exactly, is the Meaning of Likely ? Can any Numbers be put on it? Like a Sigma? Is the Distribution of Likely Normal?
"We also know that different users use different devices and liquids. So it could be that some are safer or more harmful than others. And people also use the devices in different ways. So further work needs to be done to understand these differences, so that each vaper is using their device as safely as possible."
I hear you Mike.
I think where So Much of the Problems occur is People just want the 95% to Apply to Every e-Cigarette, using every e-Liquid, under Every Circumstance.
And Not to Read how the Authors specified the Context of this Claim.
Sure. Look at mortality tables of life expectancy for smokers versus non-smokers. Ex smokers, and hopefully ex-smoker vapers, will fall in between. IIRC, a non-smoking male age 35 should have a life expectancy of ~79 years. A 35 year old smoker ~72 years.
Hopefully we'll fall a lot closer to the non-smoker longevity, but likely never match it after the long years of smoking most of us are coming from. That damage has been done.
But once Again, I don't want to know about things on the Population Level. I would like to know things on the Individual Level.
Mortality is a Great Benchmark to use when defining Risk. Because it is Easy to Quantify. It's one of the Nice, Neat, Box things I mentioned earlier.
My Uncle Smoked for about 40 Years. He aint Dead yet. But he needs to Sit for a Few Minutes when he walks from the Car to the House. And Carrying in the Groceries? Forget it. And he's been like that for a Long Time.
If he can go 6 more trips around the Sun, he'll get to 79. And help Pull Up that 72 Year Statistic.
I am 29, I have 50 years to that age... I will see long-term effects of vaping... Hopefully. Sometimes I think about that. If I continue to smoke I can live up to 70 years. If I vape, can I? We have 14 years of history on vaping... We don't know what will happen in 10 years from now. What if we find something new, what we can't predict right now? Science is a self-critical process of learning. A lots of what ifs... I know, strange logic... But I am not scientist and smart.
All we can do is go by the best that science has to offer today.
"Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may never get here, therefor all we have is TODAY".....
Today's science tells us that vaping is magnitudes safer, I have no reason to doubt that today.
A funny but true story.
When I was a kid I worked part-time in the Welding Yard for blow money. At that time, you couldnt walk 20 feet without encountering a huge dispenser of humongous Salt Pills, and you were encouraged to take as many as you could stomach. The scientific belief at the time was that we were depleting our bodies of salt by sweating so much. 20 years later the doctors were all encouraging us to limit our salt intake, saying its not good for our blood pressure.
20 years after that, I am still here, and I "amazingly" have a relatively clean bill of health (except I'm too fat), and the doctors tell me I have the blood pressure of a teenager.
Once again, live for today!
"Yesterday is gone, tomorrow may never get here, therefor all we have is TODAY".....
I think I'm more "big boned".
"Fluffy?"
I remember the days of salt pills too. And drinking water from a hose ("OMG!"), and riding bikes AND playing ice hockey with no helmet on ("OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!").
I can't believe I made it this far.
Anyone up for a nice vape?
To me it is not all about "harm reduction" at all.
Sometimes I think I need another hobby.
(I had just noticed that I had three matchy-match mods and tanks sitting next to each other and just had to snap an image of them)
- No longer smell like a ashtray
- Less costly
- More fun - hobby aspect
- The 'EX' did not mind me vaping indoors or in the car
Sometimes I think I need another hobby.
(I had just noticed that I had three matchy-match mods and tanks sitting next to each other and just had to snap an image of them)
At 6'4" 338 pounds, I am not only (truly) big boned, and fluffy, but I am plain ole fat too.......I think I'm more "big boned".
"Fluffy?"
I remember the days of salt pills too. And drinking water from a hose ("OMG!"), and riding bikes AND playing ice hockey with no helmet on ("OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!").
I can't believe I made it this far.
Anyone up for a nice vape?
Meh....... life is good!
Vaping or smoking? Problem is that this decision is not made just for today... But for the future. OK, we have just a little more than a decade of experience with vaping... So I guess that I am fine for the next 8 years... I really hope that vaping is what we think it is... I really truly hope.
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