New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Has this been credibly debunked?

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...tte_Vaping/links/583f1a4f08ae8e63e6182588.pdf

@Kurt I see you listed as a "commenter" but I cant find the actual content of your comment anywhere.


From Dr F

Konstantinos Farsalinos | Feb 11 2017 14:33 EST
Dr Khlystov mentions that there is information about 5 samples tested in their study. Unfortunately he refers to the samples with the lowest (by far) levels of carbonyl emissions. In fact, only one of these samples had high carbonyl emissions, unlike Brand I samples which showed very high levels of toxic emissions (especially for 3 of the samples, the levels found were extreme).

Liquids from different batches may not be the same, but finding almost 7000 ug/g of formaldehyde compared to < 0.65 ug/g from an unflavored sample can be easily reproduced with reasonable accuracy even with different batches. A replication study finding levels of carbonyl emissions lower by orders of magnitude cannot be attributed to different batches.

As i mentioned in my ES&T letter to the editor, the levels found by Khlystov and Samburova could only be explained by dry puffs, but this has been excluded because of the findings in unflavored liquids. Also, previous studies with verified realistic (i.e. no dry puff conditions) have found aldehyde levels orders of magnitude lower compared to their study. This creates a crucial need to replicate the samples with the highest levels of carbonyl emissions, despite the reassurance about the laboratory quality. Replication is the epitomy of science. But the authors are not providing the necessary information for these liquids.

 

[Rossum]

Has this been credibly debunked?

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...tte_Vaping/links/583f1a4f08ae8e63e6182588.pdf

 

[mikepetro]

Dr F's comment was basically that they needed to replicate the tests to show repeatability. Which I totally agree with. However, that alone does not "disprove" their results, it just puts them in question. It is a reputable lab, and the protocols seemed reasonable from my layman's eye.

4 scientists commented on this study, but I could only find Dr F's comment. The rest of the sources I found required subscriptions that I dont have, and probably dont qualify for.

 

[mikepetro]

On a side note, I have been looking at formaldehyde testing equipment. Some of it is marginally affordable but I am unsure if it would do the job. Sure could use someone knowledgeable to help me out. I would love to be able to measure temp and formaldehyde on my own. I can respond a lot faster to new and changing tech than the average laboratory who has to develop protocols and documentation to stand up to the scientific community. I am not worried about that level of credibility, I just want to see if there is enough smoke/fire to warrant raising an issue to the scientific community to validate.

 

[Layzee Vaper]

Has this been credibly debunked?

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...tte_Vaping/links/583f1a4f08ae8e63e6182588.pdf

@Kurt I see you listed as a "commenter" but I cant find the actual content of your comment anywhere.


From Dr F

It's difficult to know what to believe. Having said that I am switching to higher nic and no flavourings, in an effort to reduce the amount I vape and minimise the risk as much as possible given the limited information we have.

vaping is a HUGE business now. It's about time some of bigger players funded some proper research to help those of us that want to minimise the risks.

 

[mikepetro]

It's difficult to know what to believe. Having said that I am switching to higher nic and no flavourings, in an effort to reduce the amount I vape and minimise the risk as much as possible given the limited information we have.

vaping is a HUGE business now. It's about time some of bigger players funded some proper research to help those of us that want to minimise the risks.

I think (actually I "know") many already have. The FDA created a competitive playing field though with the whole PMTA thing. Companies are competing against each other to gain the coveted PMTAs (and thus market-share), and are therefor keeping their research close to the vest. Some companies have research specifically geared towards discrediting other companies applications, etc.

 

[mikepetro]

I have been trying my best to get an account on ResearchGate - Share and discover research but I guess my credentials are just not good enough. That is where there is a lot of studies to be mined if you had access to the full articles.

 

[zoiDman]

... The FDA created a competitive playing field though with the whole PMTA thing. ...

 

[mikepetro]

Hehehehe, yeah, among other things......

 

[englishmick]

I have been trying my best to get an account on ResearchGate - Share and discover research but I guess my credentials are just not good enough. That is where there is a lot of studies to be mined if you had access to the full articles.

Have you come across Sci-Hub. I've never been there, just read about it. Supposedly contains all published scientific papers for free. It lives on the dark web but sometimes it's out there on the regular web. I googled it just now and couldn't figure out whether it can currently be accessed without Tor, which I don't have.

 

[mikepetro]

Have you come across Sci-Hub. I've never been there, just read about it. Supposedly contains all published scientific papers for free. It lives on the dark web but sometimes it's out there on the regular web. I googled it just now and couldn't figure out whether it can currently be accessed without Tor, which I don't have.

VPN, TOR, USENET, whats all that stuff? I'll look tonight.... From Scandinavia.

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks to @Mazinny I have some iClear 16s to test!

 

[lil_buddy]

I have been trying my best to get an account on ResearchGate - Share and discover research but I guess my credentials are just not good enough. That is where there is a lot of studies to be mined if you had access to the full articles.

If you know anyone who is student or faculty at a university - they should have access through their library gateway.

 

[Verb]

I have been trying my best to get an account on ResearchGate - Share and discover research but I guess my credentials are just not good enough. That is where there is a lot of studies to be mined if you had access to the full articles.

Got you covered. PM incoming.

 

[Mazinny]

Thanks to @Mazinny I have some iClear 16s to test!

Cool, it would be interesting to compare with CE4 results. Kind of the same design except the Iclear16 is dual coil. My guess is that Iclear will do better.

 

[mikepetro]

I have been trying my best to get an account on ResearchGate - Share and discover research but I guess my credentials are just not good enough. That is where there is a lot of studies to be mined if you had access to the full articles.

Well, it looks like I finally got in. Over the course of a couple days they kept quizzing me, asking for Associates, credentials, diplomas, etc. Finally they asked for "an example of my research". So I converted my blog to a PDF and sent it to them. After not hearing anything back for a while I thought I was toast and they threw me out with wharf rats.

Today, they approved me and I now have a logon......

 

[Eskie]

On a side note, I have been looking at formaldehyde testing equipment. Some of it is marginally affordable but I am unsure if it would do the job. Sure could use someone knowledgeable to help me out. I would love to be able to measure temp and formaldehyde on my own. I can respond a lot faster to new and changing tech than the average laboratory who has to develop protocols and documentation to stand up to the scientific community. I am not worried about that level of credibility, I just want to see if there is enough smoke/fire to warrant raising an issue to the scientific community to validate.

There are commercial tests available varying from collection kits to send in to digital probes. There are also quantitative test strips. None of those methods short of a certified collection container and send could be considered sensitive and accurate enough unless you're willing to invest in a collection system and a spectrophotometer, which can be found on eBay (of course ) for a few hundred dollars.

Well, it looks like I finally got in. Over the course of a couple days they kept quizzing me, asking for Associates, credentials, diplomas, etc. Finally they asked for "an example of my research". So I converted my blog to a PDF and sent it to them. After not hearing anything back for a while I thought I was toast and they threw me out with wharf rats.

Today, they approved me and I now have a logon......

Congrats!

 

[mikepetro]

invest in a collection system and a spectrophotometer, which can be found on eBay (of course ) for a few hundred dollars.

The stuff I was looking at (Agilent 1220) was beyond the imagination of out of my my budget. I would be VERY interested in the solutions you mention above. Any links you can help with?

BTW, I would love it if the spectrophotometer could also do ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, iron, potassium, etc... (requiring the appropriate reagents of course) That would be an added plus. I have drooled over some of the Hach units for years.

 

[mikepetro]

OMG..... Getting access to that site has opened the proverbial Pandora's Box for me.

It was difficult to keep my mouth shut on some of the ignorance being displayed by the scientific community.

On the other hand, while I am still digesting it, there is a lot that backs up the temp/nasty relationship I have been presenting here. A whole lot!

What I am finding is that most of the legitimate research is dated, not so much by when it was done, but by the vape equipment being tested. And the test protocols are dated, most focus on power/nasty relationships, they are looking at the wrong "trigger". The trigger is temp!!!!!!!! What was it, 18 variables (from a layman's point of view) that go into temp? None of the testing tracked or controlled all of these variables, or even kept them constant.

Anyway, I have to take a break, all this science mumbo jumbo is making my head hurt.

 

[classwife]