New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

Nice find.

 

[mikepetro]

The study concludes that: "Optimal combinations of device settings, liquid formulation and vaping behaviour normally result in e-cigarette emissions with much less carcinogenic potency than tobacco smoke, notwithstanding there are circumstances in which the cancer risks of e-cigarette emissions can escalate, sometimes substantially. These circumstances are usually avoidable when the causes are known."

While this study does find that there are conditions under which e-cigarettes can be made to produce rather high levels of certain hazardous chemicals -- most notably aldehydes -- these conditions involve jacking up the voltage to excessive levels that typically produce dry puff conditions, something that vapers would almost certainly detect immediately and not tolerate. Nevertheless, the results do suggest that FDA safety standards related to the maximum allowable voltage or coil temperature may be warranted.

 

[mikepetro]

Does anybody have access to http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/

If not I will look at buying the article, though I cant find a price yet.

 

[Eskie]

Does anybody have access to http://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/

If not I will look at buying the article, though I cant find a price yet.

Which article title. Almost all are already unlocked.

Do you mean this one? Comparing the cancer potencies of emissions from vapourised nicotine products including e-cigarettes with those of tobacco smoke | Tobacco Control

Edit: It's 37 pounds for the full pdf

 

[mikepetro]

Which article title. Almost all are already unlocked.

Do you mean this one? Comparing the cancer potencies of emissions from vapourised nicotine products including e-cigarettes with those of tobacco smoke | Tobacco Control

Edit: It's 37 pounds for the full pdf

Yep, damn thats about $50. A little steep.

 

[zoiDman]

Has anybody read the study this article refers to?
The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: New Study Provides Strong Empirical Support for New FDA Approach to Tobacco Product Regulation

Details of the study would be interesting if there is a subscriber among us!

Interesting Last Sentence in that article...

"While this study does find that there are conditions under which e-cigarettes can be made to produce rather high levels of certain hazardous chemicals -- most notably aldehydes -- these conditions involve jacking up the voltage to excessive levels that typically produce dry puff conditions, something that vapers would almost certainly detect immediately and not tolerate. Nevertheless, the results do suggest that FDA safety standards related to the maximum allowable voltage or coil temperature may be warranted."

This Last Sentence is something I have Mentioned that I thought would be a Unambiguous Requirement to successful PMTA approval.

I think you have to look at Temp Control thru the Eyes of a Regulator. And Not thru the Eyes of a Vaper.

How many Studies have we seen where the Real Culprit has been Results based on Dry Hit? Now think of going to the FDA and telling them that I have a Patent on a Circuit Board that will prevent Thermal Run-Away?

And you tell them that No Thermal Run-Away = No Toxins due to Thermal Breakdown.

What Regulator would Not see this as a Good Thing? If Not, a Necessary Thing? If Not, part of the Reason that Regulations are Needed?

zoiDman, Feb 19, 2016 Report

Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-

 

[440BB]

That article's last sentence, seemingly logical, makes everything in use today unacceptable from a regulatory standpoint. The need to control all the variables to achieve a consistent temperature limit makes all in one systems, if not entirely closed systems, the likely future.

 

[zoiDman]

That article's last sentence, seemingly logical, makes everything in use today unacceptable from a regulatory standpoint. The need to control all the variables to achieve a consistent temperature limit makes all in one systems, if not entirely closed systems, the likely future.

Unless the FDA really comes Down Off the Ledge, that is how I always thought PMTA approval would go.

And "Unadulterated" is a Very Powerful Word when it comes to Regulations.

 

[awsum140]

This all makes me cherish my DNA and other TC devices even more, and happier still I have a modest inventory of replacements in case of failure.

 

[Eskie]

Real life testing of actual vape products looking both at temperatures in use and measuring any potential excessive from actual vape gear as normally used (airflow) would be needed before being able to act with an evidence based approach, and not arbitrary, just because, pick a number approach. With an extension of 4 years, I expect that information will be available in that time frame.

 

[mikepetro]

This all makes me cherish my DNA and other TC devices even more, and happier still I have a modest inventory of replacements in case of failure.

Yeah, rarely do they break, but I managed to break one today. My favorite one too, a black anodized 200 with a short black Merlin on it. It fell out of my shirt pocket and hit the cement - HARD. Screen doesnt work, but the it still fires. I think I "might" have a spare screen or ten laying around somewhere.

 

[mikepetro]

Real life testing of actual vape products looking both at temperatures in use and measuring any potential excessive from actual vape gear as normally used (airflow) would be needed before being able to act with an evidence based approach, and not arbitrary, just because, pick a number approach. With an extension of 4 years, I expect that information will be available in that time frame.

DNAs already have a 600f limit, but I suspect if the alphabets get involved that will get lowered. The real kicker is that it would force even open systems into using TC wire to work.

I like TC, and I believe in it, but I dont believe it should be shoved down anybody's throat. That may very well be the only way open systems would be allowed though.

 

[Eskie]

DNAs already have a 600f limit, but I suspect if the alphabets get involved that will get lowered. The real kicker is that it would force even open systems into using TC wire to work.

I like TC, and I believe in it, but I dont believe it should be shoved down anybody's throat. That may very well be the only way open systems would be allowed though.

Well, if we believe the BS Gottlieb helpful information on regulation would support both choice and innovation in the harm reduction, noncombustible tobacco alternatives. Lots of information remains to be gathered, particularly in light of all the data you have already generated that needs to correlated to measurements of what if any breakdown organic products in the vapor are produced.

 

[440BB]

I feel like I've been transported into the near future, sitting in my self-driving car which adheres to the speed limit, no more, while my vape does the same.

No more slamming me back in the seat when I hit the Mopar's gas pedal, no more crackle of a fresh coil...

I like TC, and I believe in it, but I dont believe it should be shoved down anybody's throat. That may very well be the only way open systems would be allowed though.

I agree. Even though I vape at lower power and hopefully temps, I don't want every vapers' choice to be taken away. For some, higher temps than some predefined limit may be the only way to keep off the smokes.

TC is useful. It's who controls the temp that concerns me.

 

[zoiDman]

...
TC is useful. It's who controls the temp that concerns me.

JMO.

But I think a Likely Scenario is that someone at NIH or CDC will set a Temperature to some value, say 440 F. The temp will represent when they feel Toxins start to form. And that will be the Maximum Coil Temp that would be Expectable for a PMTA-ed e-Cigarette.

So the TC would be Hardwired at 440 F. No User Adjustment.

Now the user might be able to push Up/Down "wattage" buttons to adjust the Hit. But the TC Max Temp would be Fixed.

 

[mikepetro]

JMO.

But I think a Likely Scenario is that someone at NIH or CDC will set a Temperature to some value, say 440 F. The temp will represent when they feel Toxins start to form. And that will be the Maximum Coil Temp that would be Expectable for a PMTA-ed e-Cigarette.

So the TC would be Hardwired at 440 F. No User Adjustment.

Now the user might be able to push Up/Down "wattage" buttons to adjust the Hit. But the TC Max Temp would be Fixed.

Not going to "like" that post, but I do agree that some variant of that will be our future.

 

[mikepetro]

Easy enough to defeat though. Put TI wire in a Mod with a NI TCR and see what happens.

 

[440BB]

The term "mod" may once again evolve. Instead of making flashlight tubes and Altoids boxes into vaping devices, it may eventually mean hacking vaping devices to regain control over functionality. Pretty ironic, but at least something is actually getting modded.

 

[zoiDman]

Not going to "like" that post, but I do agree that some variant of that will be our future.

I hear you.

I'm encouraged by the recent statements of the FDA. But it still Isn't going to be all Unicorns and Rainbows compared to what we have Enjoyed.

 

[Rossum]

I feel like I've been transported into the near future, sitting in my self-driving car which adheres to the speed limit, no more, while my vape does the same.

I reject your reality and substitute my own, which involves motorcycles with absurd power-to-weight ratios and and mechanical mods (squonkers, of course).