I'd also mention that Dr. F was basing his study on power while Mike is using temperature, a much more reliable indicator.
New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Ah I see, I wondered how to compare results, but mikes last graph is per puff too.
So is F. downplaying those "minimal" values and their impact or are all of these findings here not something to really think about.
As in "only the dose makes a poison" and these values are to low to be harmfull?
Apples and Oranges, the two cannot be reasonably compared.
He tested based on power, which tells us nothing about the temperature. POWER is NOT the trigger that creates formaldehyde!
Thermal degradation = TEMPERATURE is the trigger.
My tests were based on temperature.
Historical testing based on Voltage or Power is inadequate to accurately predict Thermal Degradation.
There are 17 other variables in a VW mod that could also influence the temperature, and hence the amount of formaldehyde.
To be blunt, Science has been testing the WRONG variable!!!!!!
Every single test was with a fully saturated wick, there no "dry hits" involved in my study.
The explanation is called Thermal Degradation.
Many thanks, Mike.
@Katya and @Katdarling :
Maybe you two should just stop fighting it and get into vaping with TC?
Although some gear doesn’t go that well with TC (e.g. Kayfun 4), the transition is otherwise really not that bad. I have no doubt that you both have the skills to handle it.
[Psst: TC builds in my Ego One tanks work fine.]
Nah, much too much fun "fighting" it.
As far as skills go, that's never been my concern, but I'm sorry, Jumpin' In, you're going to have to take this swim without me. (now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go transition my wick in my kanthal built Doglet.)
I thought F´s study is not really about watts but about emissions when a human detects a dry hit compared to those when the testsubject thinks its still ok.
Bottom line of Fs study is like "as long it doesnt taste burned, its ok"
Though that doesnt really matter as Rossum mentioned that Fs values under non dry hit conditions are like your max values.
"Minimal amounts of aldehydes per 10 puffs were found at all power levels with A1 (up to 11.3 µg for formaldehyde"
So like 1 µg per puff, which you found with 100% VG at about 490°F, right?
So, even if you found those emissions, I wonder -is it something people should worry about at all?
As in everything is toxic, it really depends on the dose.
Bottom line of Fs study is like "as long it doesnt taste burned, its ok"
Though that doesnt really matter as Rossum mentioned that Fs values under non dry hit conditions are like your max values.
"Minimal amounts of aldehydes per 10 puffs were found at all power levels with A1 (up to 11.3 µg for formaldehyde"
So like 1 µg per puff, which you found with 100% VG at about 490°F, right?
So, even if you found those emissions, I wonder -is it something people should worry about at all?
As in everything is toxic, it really depends on the dose.
Most historical science has been testing based on this variable, ie POWER setting. But there are a ton of other variables involved that will also affect the true trigger.
The true trigger is coil temp:
Temperature is the bottom line in determining when, and how much formaldehyde is produced.
The true trigger is coil temp:
Temperature is the bottom line in determining when, and how much formaldehyde is produced.
How much formaldehyde you choose to allow yourself to be exposed to is a personal decision.
My reasoning is why expose yourself at all if it can easily be avoided.
I vape between 200 - 400 puffs per day, so at 1 µg per puff that would accumulate to 200-400 µg per day. Now multiply by a week, a month, a year. Thats a lot when you total it up. If I can achieve a perfectly satisfying vape without exposing myself to 300 µg per day, why wouldnt I?
But that is for each person to decide for themselves, I am just presenting the data in a manner that is realistically accurate.
I tried TC, used it for a month or two (found out that the best temperatures for me are at below 400F). Returned back to power mode. I feel myself reasonably safe, because I can run my builds at 25W and higher, but actually I vape only at 10-12W, so my temperatures are much lower than that of dry burn effect CORRECTED: bad taste zone (CORRECTED: not according to Mike, my mistake).
Important thing from Mike's research:
We cannot anymore advice novices with VW setups "to go up until you feel bad taste and then go back a click or two". It will put them in a temperature range of elevated formaldehyde.
Important thing from Mike's research:
We cannot anymore advice novices with VW setups "to go up until you feel bad taste and then go back a click or two". It will put them in a temperature range of elevated formaldehyde.
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I never said 500F was a "dry" burn, true dry hits are much hotter. My wick was not at all dry at 505F.
Just dont want to confuse a "burnt flavor" with a dry hit, two very different things. A dry hit tastes like the Devils .... and will burn your throat and lungs.
A dry hit is when the wick is not saturated enough and the temps will skyrocket well above 500f.
I recall a hundred or two pages ago that the relative boiling points of PG, VG and water were thought of as reasonable predictors of when thermal degradation may occur. The 50/50 results show a different result. Interesting!
Yes, I have been contemplating that all day. VG acted as expected, but the 50/50 mixture did not.
My next step is to measure some 100% PG juice, to see if I see any clues there. Not gonna happen today though.
One thing I have been contemplating is that the 200+ tests I have done may be leaving a film on the sensor, it certainly left a film on the outside of the probe and inside of the chamber. I took it apart but did not detect anything, however there is a porous membrane on the sensor. I am afraid to apply any sort of alcohol or cleaner to it for fear of ruining it. The sensor is made by DART. I am going to contact them, although I expect to get blown off as not using the meter in a manner for which it was designed.
https://dart-sensors.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/HCHOSensorDatasheet.pdf
Dart Sensors Ltd – Product categories – Formaldehyde Sensors
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And actually, it wasnt be thought of as an indicator of thermal degradation at all, except to get under 410 at the coil based on Wang. It was proposed that you could use BP to reduce the temp required to get a satisfying vape. It was about lowering your power/temp.
But even that theory doesnt seem to match the data. BP plays a role in maximum vapor, but there may be more to it than we realize yet.
I recorded it all in the blog below.
Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures (includes BP Charts)
Its not the sensor, I just repeated three reading of pure VG, 470, 480, and 490, and all three were in the exact same range as originally recorded. So the sensor is fine.
Reminds me of that famous USC study that found more heavy metal particles in ambient air than in actual e-cig aerosol. But that's LA air.
Well, my main reason for not switching to TC was the initial difficulty I encountered with user interface on different mods (different chips)--seemed overwhelming to me. Press this button, hold those two buttons for three seconds, press here to scroll, there to select, lock in resistance (coil has to be cool), answer the question, 3 more clicks to adjust temperature, 3 more to adjust adjust wattage, upgrade firmware, remember which mode you're in--and then you're kicked out of TC mode for some reason... Heck, I have a mod that always locks itself and demands to know if I'm using a new coil--even in power mode.
Arctic Fox??? Too much for me. 
Different connector, eh? Lemme think--KR808-D1, KR808-D2, 901, 801, 4081, Leo, P3. I still have a baggie full of different adapters. The 510 seems to have won and I don't see it going away anytime soon. Even ProVape failed.
Exactly right. That's why I feel comfortable using it (thanks, @MacTechVpr ).
Yeah. And now I see more and more battery manufacturers (Sony) and vendors posting big disclaimers that their batteries are not to be used in e-cigs. I can't blame them. Those cells were never intended to be used in personal vaporizers.
The same is true for VG, PG, PEG, flavorings, sweeteners, wires, cotton, rayon, silica, etc. We've been improvising from day one.
And I daresay, will CONTINUE to do so......
Hehehe, some people even use tampons for wicks! Seriously!
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