New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[Semiretired]

Mike - you said that you were considering testing PG. If you do - can I make a request?

Test 100% PG and a 80%/20% (or 75/25) PG/VG mix - Interested to see what a smaller level of VG does to the results.

 

[mikepetro]

Mike - you said that you were considering testing PG. If you do - can I make a request?

Test 100% PG and a 80%/20% (or 75/25) PG/VG mix - Interested to see what a smaller level of VG does to the results.

The PG tests will happen this weekend. Thats about 10 hours worth of testing. Dont see myself cramming in another blend on top of that this weekend, I have yard work to do too.

My job wants their scale back Monday. If the one I ordered from eBay lives up to expectations then maybe I can do some more blends. Plus I still want to do a flavored gunked clapton coil test, ie does the gunk contribute. I am pretty sure it does, just not sure its formaldehyde.

 

[Semiretired]

The PG tests will happen this weekend. Thats about 10 hours worth of testing. Dont see myself cramming in another blend on top of that this weekend, I have yard work to do too.

My job wants their scale back Monday. If the one I ordered from eBay lives up to expectations then maybe I can do some more blends. Plus I still want to do a flavored gunked clapton coil test, ie does the gunk contribute. I am pretty sure it does, just not sure its formaldehyde.

That's cool. Just had to throw it out there. I appreciate all your effort - I have learned from it.

 

[homeuser6]

cmd-ky,mikepetro, i am somewhat skeptical about using heat flux as a temperature predictor. for an example i use the two builds on my atty that were thermocouple tested by mike(charts in his blog).
Actual temperatures inside a RSST "genny"
now plug both of these builds into steam engine and see which one is red or blue.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
i detect hotter vapor from the 28 gage coil than from the 32 gage coil and the 28 overheats the atty faster. granted, i vape like a dinosaur, but heat flux does not always equate to temperature.
this has bugged me for a long time, so i appreciate any comments.
(i'm not looking for an argument,just enlightenment)
mike, you vaped both, your opinion please.

 

[Layzee Vaper]

@homeuser6

I suspect the perceived difference in temperature comes down to the difference in mass and surface area of the two coils that you are using.

The 32 gauge build is like a small single radiator
The 28 gauge build is like a large double radiator

Running both at the same temperature in the same size room would have different results, although the surface temperature of each radiator would the same. With a large double radiator due to it's mass and surface area the air temp in the room would be much higher.

 

[mikepetro]

cmd-ky,mikepetro, i am somewhat skeptical about using heat flux as a temperature predictor. for an example i use the two builds on my atty that were thermocouple tested by mike(charts in his blog).
Actual temperatures inside a RSST "genny"
now plug both of these builds into steam engine and see which one is red or blue.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
i detect hotter vapor from the 28 gage coil than from the 32 gage coil and the 28 overheats the atty faster. granted, i vape like a dinosaur, but heat flux does not always equate to temperature.
this has bugged me for a long time, so i appreciate any comments.
(i'm not looking for an argument,just enlightenment)
mike, you vaped both, your opinion please.

In that example, look at the "Heat Capacity", I think it will be a better indicator.

 

[AzPlumber]

Airflow on a smaller diameter wire would have a greater/quicker cooling effect.

 

[stols001]

I have to add that the 10% water rec is one of my favorites. My tanks don't get hot, I prefer the vape, I now use that even in TC mode, and I vastly prefer it. The vape and flavor are better (which I didn't expect) but it ABSOLUTELY decreased the temps in my non-TC vapes. I'm so glad I kept up with this thread, and I agree with everyone saying Thank You for working on this. I think there are valuable takaways from this thread for absolutely everyone. You can make your vape safer without TC, for those who are intimidated by the notion. Knowing how the different ingredients function when vaping was so useful for me (I can't use PG) and I am happy to know my vaping is safer. I have tanks to rotate in the AM so I'm not chainvaping and I keep my wattages low.

And, I am MORE than satisfied with my vape, so it's not a chore or anything, just really helpful info. I hope more folks start reading this thread...

Anna

 

[Layzee Vaper]

In that example, look at the "Heat Capacity", I think it will be a better indicator.

I think you need to use both the heat capacity value and the heat flux value to get an idea of the temperature.
These values can put you in the right sort of area. But if you want to know the temperature you need to measure it with your own individual setup. It can help you predict if it will be way too hot or way too cool but it is limited.

I also think even those of us that don't use temp devices can limit the risks quite easily.

I have changed the makeup of my juice to reduce the boiling point.
Increased the I.D of my coil to increase the size of the wick for better wicking.
Increased the mass of the coil to slow up the ramp time.
Increased the nic level so I take shorter hits, less often.
Switched to SS from Kanthal, because the resistance rises and limits power applied, again this slows how quickly the coil heats up. (I use a mech)
Squonk more often!
Increased the airflow.

All of these things have reduced the temperature. I am also vaping less volume overall. That's got to have reduced my exposure.

I would not of changed anything without this thread.

So thanks Mike!

I may well move into temp control, once I see some of the big players stepping up and providing us with the kind of information that Mike has.

 

[mikepetro]

Someone asked me a question in a PM but I decided to answer it here as it may apply to many of you.

Many "Multimeters" come with banana jacks that will also accept a "Type K" thermocouple. If you have a thermocouple setting on your multimeter this is a solution you can do at home cheaply. It wont have the precision of the instruments I use in my tests, but it will give you a good enough idea of what ballpark you are in.

Of course it will be up to you to figure out how to get just the tip of the thermocouple under a center wrap of your coil and then reassemble it to vape and measure. Remember, the wraps at the ends of the coil are lower temp, you want to hit a center wrap. Also, you dont want the thermocouple to "short" two wraps together, it will throw the resistance off on your build.

Examples of meters that can be used like this, just make sure it has a Temperature or "Type K" Thermocouple setting.

Only $20
https://www.amazon.com/Extech-MN35-...keywords=multimeters+with+type+k+thermocouple

This is what you want to adapt the meter banana jacks on your meter to "Type K Mini thermocouples":
The black jack goes in the COM jack of the meter.

https://www.amazon.com/FLIR-TA60-Th...09818047&sr=8-4&keywords=thermocouple+adapter

It comes with a probe, but it also adapts your banana plug on the meter to ANY "mini" (aka Subminiature) thermouple connector.

A thermocouple wire that comes with it but might be too thick and I dont know what temp the insulation can handle. If desired, order smaller ones from the "Omega" links below, just make sure to get the kind with the mini connectors already on them, or else you also need to buy the mini connectors (photo above) and assemble them yourself:

Make sure you get the "Type K" thermocouples, and the finer the gauge the faster the response.

With "mini" connectors already attached (easier):
Thermocouples | Insulated Thermocouples with Connectors | Types J, K, T and E

Without connectors (cheaper but you have to buy the connectors and assemble yourself):
Glass braided & PFA Insulated Thermocouples

You need these Type K "mini" connectors if you buy the wires without connectors:
https://www.amazon.com/Thermocouple...09818047&sr=8-5&keywords=thermocouple+adapter

 

[Fozzy71]

Haven't been following this thread but FYI in case it hasn't been posted in here yet - Aldehyde levels in e-cigarette aerosol: Findings from a replication study and from use of a new-generation device

 

[mikepetro]

Haven't been following this thread but FYI in case it hasn't been posted in here yet - Aldehyde levels in e-cigarette aerosol: Findings from a replication study and from use of a new-generation device

He's referring to dry puffs being used in studies, which is something many ill informed researchers did, and then reported very unrealistic results.

I went to great lengths to ensure dry puffs were not an issue in the testing I did. I personally vaped every single test condition.

 

[Fozzy71]

He's referring to dry puffs being used in studies, which is something many ill informed researchers did, and then reported very unrealistic results.

I went to great lengths to ensure dry puffs were not an issue in the testing I did. I personally vaped every single test condition.

That post by me was not directed at you. I have no idea about any testing you did as I stopped watching this thread ages ago as it had went way off topic. I was posting that just for general info since it related to to the OP of this thread. I will bow back out of this thread now.

 

[mikepetro]

That post by me was not directed at you. I have no idea about any testing you did as I stopped watching this thread ages ago as it had went way off topic. I was posting that just for general info since it related to to the OP of this thread. I will bow back out of this thread now.

You missed a lot of good stuff then because it got very much squarely back on topic.

 

[Eskie]

Off topic? This thread??

Mike, thanks for the info on multi-meter use with a thermocouple. Pretty affordable way of doing it, even if accuracy might end up a bit looser.

 

[homeuser6]

thanks mike

 

[mikepetro]

Off topic? This thread??

Mike, thanks for the info on multi-meter use with a thermocouple. Pretty affordable way of doing it, even if accuracy might end up a bit looser.

The meter and probe should be accurate within 5 degrees, even on a cheap meter.

Your biggest margin of error will come from whatever technique you use to position the probe. Positioning is crucial to getting a good measurement.

Position the probe well and you will have a good enough measurement to know what you want to know.

 

[AzPlumber]

The meter and probe should be accurate within 5 degrees, even on a cheap meter.

Your biggest margin of error will come from whatever technique you use to position the probe. Positioning is crucial to getting a good measurement.

Position the probe well and you will have a good enough measurement to know what you want to know.

I suspect you want to stay away from the incoming airflow side of the coil, correct?

 

[DPLongo22]

Position the probe well and you will have a good enough measurement to know what you want to know.

This has always been my philosophy.

 

[mikepetro]

I suspect you want to stay away from the incoming airflow side of the coil, correct?

It really all depends on the atty, thats a judgement call. I could see where it might make a difference on dripper with side airfllow.

The thing to do is try different locations and go with the one that yields the highest reading.