New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[zoiDman]

@mikepetro I am curious what you think about this study from the CDC on formaldehyde in vapor:
New CDC study officially debunks ‘vaping and formaldehyde’ myth

Am I the Only One that has a Problem with the Title of that article?

 

[mikepetro]

It tested "air quality", akin to passive smoke, in a room. That is a lot different than the concentrated vapor stream we are inhaling. For example, my formaldehyde meter didnt measure anything in my office at all, but it definitely measured increasing levels as coil temp increased (above a certain minimum threshold) when measuring the equivalent of a standard puff.

Upon reflection, there was one day where I did measure significant formaldehyde in the ambient air in my office. That was the day after I had my driveway sealed with coal-tar. I chose not to test any attys that day.

 

[PapawBrett]

Thanks, Mike.
Because of this thread I began an arduous journey from strait mechs to TC vaping. Had a lot of help along the way. I am content with TC vaping. And, at 400*F, my vape is both satisfying and better for me.
If I can get it, anyone can.

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks, Mike.
Because of this thread I began an arduous journey from strait mechs to TC Vaping. Had a lot of help along the way. I am content with TC Vaping. And, at 400*F, my vape is both satisfying and better for me.
If I can get it, anyone can.

I am grateful for everyone that found value in this thread, it made it worth the efforts.

 

[pufZeppelin]

I am grateful for everyone that found value in this thread, it made it worth the efforts.

I value your efforts and will Thank You again for the work and time you put into it

it has helped me be a better vapor'er


Vape≈Smart

​

 

[ScottP]

I concur this thread has been a valuable read which is why I asked for opinions on that article. I found it odd that real results from Dr. F. and Mike were showing one thing and the CDC was showing something different. It makes sense though that the CDC was checking stores more than direct inhaled vapor.

 

[mikepetro]

If you have access to this, it is a VERY good read and accurately highlights the clustermuck that exists in scientific studies done to date. The analysis was in depth and spot on. It is too long to quote here, but I did quote the CONCLUSION below.

Carbonyl emissions in e-cigarettes represent an important
research topic that has generated a lot of interest. The present
review identified different methodologies used in the laboratory
assessment of carbonyl emissions. Of particular concern is
the large diversity of puffing patterns used, which makes
comparisons difficult while in some cases the puffing regime
was unrealistic. While varying puffing patterns is understandable
considering the diversity of e-cigarette device performance and
functional characteristics, it seems that choice of puffing regimes
was not based on these parameters. The variability of reported
units of carbonyl emissions can also create confusion and may
be difficult to interpret. A reasonable recommendation would be to
report values per amount of liquid consumption. Additionally,
analytical methods need to be accurately validated since the
possibility of false positive and false negative results is of
concern due to the complexity of ingredients in flavored liquids.
Finally, it is particularly important that laboratory studies ensure
that no dry puffs are generated under laboratory conditions;
otherwise testing realistic conditions relevant to true human
exposure cannot be ensured and the findings could be misleading
and misinformative for consumers and regulators. A result
of these research discrepancies is that the reported carbonyl
emissions varied from extremely low (lower not only compared
to tobacco cigarette but also compared to environmental levels)
to extremely high (up to orders of magnitude higher than
tobacco cigarettes. Further research should consider all these
concerns in order to improve research quality and find ways
to reduce thermal degradation and carbonyl emissions from
e-cigarettes.

(9) Carbonyl Emissions in E-cigarette Aerosol: A Systematic Review and Methodological Considerations. Available from: Carbonyl Emissions in E-cigarette Aerosol: A Systematic Review and Methodological Considerations (PDF Download Available) [accessed Jan 15 2018].

 

[stols001]

Thanks for the info, @mikepetro . Sounds like some pretty sound conclusions.

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

I take that back, they are still overlooking the temp/Carbonyl relationship, at least not beyond a dry puff. But they are getting closer.

However, by calculating the levels of aldehyde emissions
per gram of liquid, based on the information on aerosol yield
per puff, slightly higher formaldehyde (4.343μg/g vs. 4.153μ
g/g)and acetaldehyde (3.027μg/g vs. 2.640μg/g) were observed at
24 mg/mL compared to 6 mg/mL nicotine concentration liquid.
This clearly shows that it is the higher liquid consumption at
6 mg/mL that mainly determines the higher carbonyl exposure
in users.

Add temp to this and they would be spot on.

 

[awsum140]

Send them an email, Mike!

 

[gerrymi]

I'm shopping for a tank that has TC ready drop in coils.(suggestions welcome) I can't physically make or wick my own coils, I've tried but it just isn't going to work.

@amoret ...have you run across the eGo ONE Mega V2 Tank?

It DOES have "TC ready drop in coils" (Titanium)...but you could rebuild the 0.5ohm or 1.0ohm Kanthal coils with any wire you desire.

(The 0.5/1.0 differ only in their "air holes"...the 0.5ohm are large and aimed at DL vapers...the 1.0ohm are small and aimed at MTL vapers.)

The CLR coils are designed to be rebuilt (they come with simple instructions in each 5-pack)...but I...being somewhat inept and lazy...(and since they're rather inexpensive)...just remove one from the blister pack => vape on it for 4-5 weeks => replace it with another one from the 5-pack...

Joyetech eGo ONE Mega V2 Tank

Joyetech CLR Coils (5 pack)


..

 

[Katdarling]

You know I'm a huge fan of the CLRs, too, gerry, but I don't think rebuilding them is what @amoret wants. If the .5 coils (the Ti coils) were fine for the particular vape style (MTL vs DL), those might be a great alternative. I've not tried them, so I'm without experience.

 

[mikepetro]

Send them an email, Mike!

I have already spoken with Dr F on the topic several times. He does not seem to agree, he is focused on VW and dry puffs. VW is just not a reliable variable to use, thermal degradation is a direct result of temp, and as demonstrated many times, temp can be all over the place at a given wattage.

Honestly, I think that mainstream science just hasnt developed the right test equipment yet to prove this out. Considering how fast our hardware evolves, and long it takes to get peer reviewed studies published, I am no longer surprised by this.

 

[awsum140]

I have to admit I'm surprised at Dr. F and his lack of interest in TC. I know he's looking at it from the "mainstream" of vaping, which probably is VW based, but the real, underlying, cause is temperature and I would think he would realize that. Yes, that's a function of power but without being able to determine temperature, with at least a little accuracy, power is still meaningless.

 

[mikepetro]

I have to admit I'm surprised at Dr. F and his lack of interest in TC. I know he's looking at it from the "mainstream" of vaping, which probably is VW based, but the real, underlying, cause is temperature and I would think he would realize that. Yes, that's a function of power but without being able to determine temperature, with at least a little accuracy, power is still meaningless.

"Power" and a BOATLOAD of other variables..........

 

[440BB]

Honestly, I think that mainstream science just hasnt developed the right test equipment yet to prove this out.

Both basic equipment and assumptions have been pretty well covered right here. If only some quality ECF noodling and your thermocouple/measurement tools were something mainstream science could digest!

 

[gerrymi]

You know I'm a huge fan of the CLRs, too, gerry, but I don't think rebuilding them is what @amoret wants. If the .5 coils (the Ti coils) were fine for the particular vape style (MTL vs DL), those might be a great alternative.

Well...Kat...I was going to also mention the "new CLR" coil that @pufZeppelin mentioned in the "eGo ONE/CLR" thread (?for TC)...(think it has "Pro" in its name)...

But it's very hard to Search ECF for a post about an item...when you can't remember the name of that item...

..

 

[gerrymi]

I was going to also list the "new CLR" coil that was mentioned in the "eGo ONE/CLR" thread (?for TC)

ProCL 0.6ohm Head - Joyetech


..

 

[52anddone]

So then, is VW vaping still considered safer than Smoking a Cigarette or Cigar ??

 

[mikepetro]

So then, is VW vaping still considered safer than Smoking a Cigarette or Cigar ??

Probably, I dont think that was ever in dispute in this thread except at the extremes.