New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[52anddone]

If it breaks down to the molecular level, and we inhale enough of it, then yes. But I'm not too worried about that happening while I'm vaping. I'd be worried about Titanium Oxide more than SS, but if used properly, Titanium is OK also.

 

[rokyo87]

If it breaks down to the molecular level, and we inhale enough of it, then yes. But I'm not too worried about that happening while I'm vaping.

Isn't the same with any other wire like Titanium? Why is then Titanium worse than SS?

 

[KenD]

But in SS wire is nickel and chrome... Both are bad for inhalation.

If you're heating up the metal hot enough to vaporize and inhale it you'll have problems no matter what material it's made of.

Sent from my Thor E using Tapatalk

 

[rokyo87]

I use Titanium. From what I have read it is fine as long as you dont dry burn it.
That being said, I think SS wire is probably the safest.

How long are you vaping with Titanium wire? Why do you think Titanium is not as safe as SS wire?

 

[mikepetro]

How long are you vaping with Titanium wire? Why do you think Titanium is not as safe as SS wire?

About 2 years. I think the only danger is if you dry burn it, it will form titanium oxide which is very hazardous. I had to give up the practice of dry burning to clean my coil. Now, once it gets gunked I just replace it. However at the temps we normally vape at I feel it is as safe as any other wire.

The thing is that I dont know that ANY wire is 100% safe. Using wire in our application is something that nobody has ever studied. What we know about wire hazards tends to come from the metallurgy folks, and also the welding folks. But in most of those cases the hazards are from passive stuff in the air while working with the superheated metal. Nobody has studied directly inhaling the fumes from a 300-600 degree heated wire. We do know that temperature plays a huge role as many metals give off various oxides when heated enough, but to my knowledge those oxide producing temps tend to be well above what we are doing.

Even nickle, which gets a bad rep, can fool you. I know a gal (a well known Modder) who is so allergic to nickel that she has to wear gloves to handle the wire, yet she is able to vape nickel wire with no apparent side effects.

 

[awsum140]

Titanium has gotten a bad rap based on one incident. Even that incident is questionable and involved a person who got cancer after exposure to titanium dust, oxide, in the air. Things not mentioned in the "scare" reports are that he worked in a relatively closed space laden with titanium dust for years, he wore no breathing protection and he also was a smoker. So the "titanium causes cancer" line is based on one, extreme, incident and the guy was a smoker. Was it titanium or was it cigarettes?

Any metal, if heated hot enough, will emit things we don't want to inhale. If you're that concerned you should probably not vape at all. Last time I checked, kanthal contains chromium. Stainless contains both chromium and nickel. Most other wires contain nickel, chromium, aluminum, copper, iron and yadda yadda, not to mention all the incidental impurities left over from refining and production. None of those are very good either and exposure to them can also cause cancer at high enough concentrations. At the temperatures we vape at, hopefully below 450F, emission of significant, measurable, amounts of dangerous components of the wire are either non-existent or so low that they can't be accurately measured. Keep titanium below 800F and oxide is not a problem. Vape at 800F and your head will explode no matter what wire you use. Sort of self correcting.

 

[rokyo87]

Titanium has gotten a bad rap based on one incident. Even that incident is questionable and involved a person who got cancer after exposure to titanium dust, oxide, in the air. Things not mentioned in the "scare" reports are that he worked in a relatively closed space laden with titanium dust for years, he wore no breathing protection and he also was a smoker. So the "titanium causes cancer" line is based on one, extreme, incident and the guy was a smoker. Was it titanium or was it cigarettes?

Any metal, if heated hot enough, will emit things we don't want to inhale. If you're that concerned you should probably not vape at all. Last time I checked, kanthal contains chromium. Stainless contains both chromium and nickel. Most other wires contain nickel, chromium, aluminum, copper, iron and yadda yadda, not to mention all the incidental impurities left over from refining and production. None of those are very good either and exposure to them can also cause cancer at high enough concentrations. At the temperatures we vape at, hopefully below 450F, emission of significant, measurable, amounts of dangerous components of the wire are either non-existent or so low that they can't be accurately measured. Keep titanium below 800F and oxide is not a problem. Vape at 800F and your head will explode no matter what wire you use. Sort of self correcting.

I agree with you completely but my only concern is what if vaping with one specific wire (SS, Titanium, Nickel, Kanthal, etc.) is more hazardous than smoking one pack of cigarettes a day. I know this is highly unlikely but what if? It's a shame we don't have any studies from wires till now. Not one in 15 years of vaping. Are scientists not concered about behaviour of wires in vaping application?

P.S. If there were no vaping I'll still be smoking 1 and half pack of West Silver a day... I am sure.

 

[Eskie]

This is from 2016

Trace Metals Derived from Electronic Cigarette (ECIG) Generated Aerosol: Potential Problem of ECIG Devices That Contain Nickel

So folks are looking at the issue.

 

[DPLongo22]

Any metal, if heated hot enough, will emit things we don't want to inhale. If you're that concerned you should probably not vape at all.

 

[mikepetro]

This is from 2016

Trace Metals Derived from Electronic Cigarette (ECIG) Generated Aerosol: Potential Problem of ECIG Devices That Contain Nickel

So folks are looking at the issue.

Good to know. Some guidance from the scientific community showing relative risks, wire to wire, and wire to cigarettes, would be very welcome.

Science has the capability to show us how to vape as safe as possible. If they would just keep the politics out of it and be objective so that we could trust what they present.

 

[ScottP]

I don't even question the safety of vaping with SS wire. SS is used too much in cooking process that if it were unsafe at even 450F-500F we would all already be dead. I have SS pots and pans and SS oven wire racks that are routinely heated to 450F (sometimes even to 500F) so if SS emitted harmful things at that temp, I have not only been breathing it in, but also eating it. I cannot say the same for the other metals.

Now dry burning SS MAY emit some bad things if you get it too hot, for too long, but I also rinse any of that off before reusing it. The issue with Titanium is you can't really dry burn to clean gunk off of it. Doing so will produce a very flaky white powder that can easily be inhaled. Also, while many wires contain "chromium", there are many types of chromium, and only hexavalent chromium (chromium-6) is the "bad" one. None of these wires contain the hexavalent version. At least not that I know of.

As far as which version of SS to use, there are 3 main types to choose from: 304, 316, and 316L. The "L" in 316L designates that it has a maximum carbon content of 0.03 percent, compared to 316 maximum of 0.08 percent. Using 316L should greatly reduce the risk of inter-granular corrosion compared to 316. Also both of the 316 types have better overall corrosion resistant properties than 304. So for me personally I have chosen to use 316L exclusively.

 

[awsum140]

All I can say, again, if the metal wire is not heated hot enough to produce molecular release of particles, IE degenerate the structure, there is no real hazard. Do leave your house when cooking, making toast or using the toaster oven? In those cases all kinds of metals are being heated at least as hot, or hotter, than the coil temp of an e-cig with, probably, hundreds or thousands of times the mass involved when compared to a coil. Yet, we happily hover over the stove, breathing it all in, without a second thought. Looking for minutia like this as reasons for saying wire "A" is dangerous versus wire "B" is just a waste of time.

Unless I missed something, that study was on the metal content generated by the liquid but did find nickel. The source of the nickel was sort of speculated but could certainly have come from the coil or overheated parts of an atomizer. I didn't read the whole thing but also wonder what temperature they were at.

 

[stols001]

I vape SS but mostly for the convenience of knowing if I get kicked out of TC mode for some reason, it won't make much of a difference, and it's just one more thing not to stress about.

I do agree that perhaps some of the risk concerning some wires may be overblown, although the idea of a dry, fine powder I could inhale," doesn't sound so appealing.

I think there were similar claims by one vendor about their non-delivery of Ceramic, they kind of made it sound like vaping ceramic would involve some kind of lung collapse (I forget who, but I actually went to that vendor's page and read it) and they claimed that "they" couldn't come up with a ceramic coil that wasn't at risk of crumbling and reducing itself to a fine dust, more or less. I think that one was blown out of proportion too, I have some ceramic coils and have vaped them with 0 incident and have inspected them for "cracks or chips" and it just doesn't happen. Maybe if you hurled a ceramic coil with incredible force onto the floor THEN tried to vape it? IDK. It sort of seemed like they "couldn't" or "wouldn't" come up with a usable process and then for a while it was "ceramic is bad." IDK. I feel fine, and I know for a while everyone was going all nuts about non-stick pans (I think this was in the 80s) and how they gave up "undesirable cooking products" and yet, I know of no deaths connected with a non-stick pan.

Most wives know cast iron works better. Heavy.

Anna

 

[ScottP]

One other point. We do not know how most wire materials will behave in the presence of certain chemicals under a heated situation. While I would not worry so much about the PG/VG themselves, some of the flavorings we use can be acidic. How do those affect the various wires? Again the SS316L is probably the most corrosion resistant wire choice we have, which is why it is used in cooking.

 

[ScottP]

Most wives know cast iron works better. Heavy.

Yes I do recall that "non-stick" scare way back when. Now it's all over everything in the kitchen it seems.

I like cast iron for some things, but only the few things where I am going to be cooking at a constant steady heat and have no reason to vary the temp. Cast iron holds heat way too long for many uses. If you get the pan too hot or just want to turn the temp down to keep something warm, you are SOL with cast iron. Still they have their uses and if cared for they will last forever and then some.

 

[Eskie]

I vape SS but mostly for the convenience of knowing if I get kicked out of TC mode for some reason, it won't make much of a difference, and it's just one more thing not to stress about.

I do agree that perhaps some of the risk concerning some wires may be overblown, although the idea of a dry, fine powder I could inhale," doesn't sound so appealing.

I think there were similar claims by one vendor about their non-delivery of Ceramic, they kind of made it sound like vaping ceramic would involve some kind of lung collapse (I forget who, but I actually went to that vendor's page and read it) and they claimed that "they" couldn't come up with a ceramic coil that wasn't at risk of crumbling and reducing itself to a fine dust, more or less. I think that one was blown out of proportion too, I have some ceramic coils and have vaped them with 0 incident and have inspected them for "cracks or chips" and it just doesn't happen. Maybe if you hurled a ceramic coil with incredible force onto the floor THEN tried to vape it? IDK. It sort of seemed like they "couldn't" or "wouldn't" come up with a usable process and then for a while it was "ceramic is bad." IDK. I feel fine, and I know for a while everyone was going all nuts about non-stick pans (I think this was in the 80s) and how they gave up "undesirable cooking products" and yet, I know of no deaths connected with a non-stick pan.

Most wives know cast iron works better. Heavy.

Anna

That ridiculous study on ceramic was from Uwell and was utterly misleading and without foundation. As far as I'm concerned ceramic is a perfectly acceptable choice for a factory coil. I've used them and found they have clean flavor and unlike other factory coils can be easily cleaned up and reused for a longer lifespan.

It does demonstrate that if you create something that looks "scientific" (although that one want even close to the cut) you can use it to support any argument you want. Truly objective research can sometimes be hard to come by as some bias can be introduced into the study even by the most well intentioned researchers.

 

[stols001]

Yep, it was Uwell, and they did seem to paint the picture that if they couldn't accomplish it no one could, but when I was looking for stuff I came across it early on, and it did look "so scientific" and yet somehow without even being told I was like, "That sounds like nonsense," because literally almost everything else than the occasional post from someone who had just read that and was worried about the coils they'd been using for months.... Crickets.

I don't think they did themselves any favors with that one.

Anna

 

[52anddone]

Science has the capability to show us how to vape as safe as possible. If they would just keep the politics out of it and be objective so that we could trust what they present.

I'll not hold my breath on that one. They can't even keep politics out of scientific findings about the Climate, the Air we all Breath, or the Water we all drink. Yes, they have the capability to show us how, but not the will. Unfortunately for Vaping, Personal Bias and the Politics of the day still trumps Hard Scientific Findings.

 

[zoiDman]

But in SS wire is nickel and chrome... Both are bad for inhalation.

Hate to be the Big Black Fly in the Frosting. But I Can't think of too many Metals that are Safe to be Inhaled.

Unless you are Inhaling while doing a Dry Burning a Coil, as KenD mentioned, I don't think you are in any Particular Risk from Metal Fumes.

But it might be a Good Idea to hold you breath when you Open the Oven to check on the Lasagna just to be on the Safe Side.

 

[mikepetro]

Not to be a party pooper, but cooking on a SS pan, and enjoying the aroma of Linguini with a white clam sauce, could easily be different than inhaling vapors straight from a coil into our lungs. In many things it is "the dose" that is the hazard. Fumes from a frying pan mixed with many liters of air might well have a much weaker dose than the concentrated stream off an atty. Is it PPM vs PPB?

I dont know this to be the case, but it would not surprise me. I think it warrants genuine laboratory study.