obamacare and vaping?

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wv2win

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I've said this before in this forum, and I'll keep saying it as it bears repeating. Regardless of your opinion of the President, the current administration, or liberals in general, it does not help our cause to divide the public opinion with unrelated partisan rhetoric. Over the past year, the President's job approval rating has averaged out to about 50%, so that is about half of the population of this country that you could inadvertently "turn away" from our cause just because you have a bone to pick. We (vapers) are the minority in this country, and we need all of the public support that we can get if we are to stand a chance of limited and sensible regulation.

If you want to enlighten people of actual legislators that vote against THR and vaping, then great! We should all know who these people are so we can call / write / email / fax them and let them know that their on the wrong side of this issue. However, if you just want to blow off steam without providing any factual and relevant information, please take it to the OUTSIDE forums and have a blast. There are quite a few people in the OUTSIDE that love to debate partisan view points.

Your "point" is missing the point. One cannot counteract the lies and misinformation about vaping effectively if one does not know where the lies are coming from and who are supporting those lies.

Your inaccurate and silly inference that we have a negative opinion about this administration, for any reason other than it's attack on vaping, is divisive and does our cause a disservice.

If this administration, and any politician regardless of party, had come out with a "reasoned" approach to the harm reduction miracle of vaping, instead of trying to have it banned nationwide, most of us would be singing their praises whether we agreed with their policies on other issues.

And many of us have listed the politicians who have called for a ban and/or severe restrictions on vaping Here is one example from another thread:

Originally Posted by DC2 View Post
I know it's hard to believe, but here you go...

3 Democrat Senators urge FDA to "swiftly" propose regulation to apply Chapter IX of FSPTCA to e-cigarettes and other products


And then there is this monstrosity...
https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1403

Co-Sponsors
Sen. Richard Durbin [D, IL]
Sen. Tim Johnson [D, SD]
Sen. Frank Lautenberg [D, NJ]
Sen. Patrick Leahy [D, VT]
Sen. Barbara Mikulski [D, MD]
Sen. Patty Murray [D, WA]
Sen. John Reed [D, RI]
Sen. John Rockefeller [D, WV]
Sen. Amy Klobuchar [D, MN]
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse [D, RI]
Sen. Jeanne Shaheen [D, NH]
Sen. Mark Begich [D, AK]
Sen. Michael Bennet [D, CO]
Sen. Al Franken [D, MN]
Sen. Richard Blumenthal [D, CT]


So, many of us would prefer that you not try to "misdirect" the "facts" as just a rant against the current administration when the "facts" clearly demonstrate that those who want vaping eliminated as much as possible, all have the one thing in common. To counteract these attacks we need to know who they are.
 
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ClippinWings

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Knowing ones own ignorance gives one a chance to get educated and grow. However, one has to be able to hear and decipher the actual context of the conversation to be able to do so.

Quoted for truth... and irony.

If it makes you feel better: No the ACA won't equate Vaping to Smoking... It will absolutely be viewed differently, because why on earth would insurers want to use every opportunity to collect higher premiums from individuals with lower risk and increase their profit margins... I mean, that would just be greedy... and no insurer or government entity is ever greedy, they do their work for purely altruist reasons.

Of coarse that last paragraph was a lie, but since you refuse to believe the truth... Just giving you what you'll apparently accept.
 

Fulgurant

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And then there is this monstrosity...
https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1403

That really is chilling -- a shameless money grab wrapped in pandering, do-gooder packaging.

It's no surprise that such a bill, purporting to fund education through a massive tax increase on all tobacco and nicotine-delivery products*, would come from Democrats. You may very well be right that most of our opposition in government, at this time, has come from the left. But as you say, we can only evaluate each politician's position as it comes up; there's no reason to believe that conservative-leaning officials wouldn't also gravitate to the "for the children" narrative in an albeit different context.

And there's a heavy opposition to vaping in the private sector too. Tobacco companies are largely passive observers at this point as far as I can tell, but their interest clearly aligns with people who would support the above-referenced bill. Big Tobacco is, if you like, a malignant bystander, biding its time, possessed of the resources to profit from almost anything the government/FDA decides to do to the vaping industry. BT may even be actively working against us behind the scenes.

* - I found the following comment on the popvox website particularly apt. When you read through the bill, it's not entirely obvious what's going on; you can only evaluate the amounts discussed in each item based on their relationship with one another. In fact, in some cases the tax hikes are so huge that the formatting makes them look like a typo -- but this guy sums it up admirably:

"You raised the tax on one of the poorest minority groups in America, those so poor they are forced to roll their own cigarettes daily from shreds of tobacco and scraps of paper, by over TWO THOUSAND PERCENT with the SCHIP tax just three years ago. And now you want to add another 2,000%+ over 2008's base rate tax on TOP of that?
Do you remember the huge stink that was made years ago when Congress wanted to raise the tax on YACHTS by just 10%? And yet you're considering a tax that would result in over a 4,000% increase in just four years on poor people? You should be royally ashamed of yourselves.
Michael J. McFadden
Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
Philadelphia, PA"​
 

Ohio Points

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""Oct 2008: "You'll never get elected and pass healthcare."
Nov 2008: "We'll never let you pass healthcare."
Jan 2009: "We're gonna shout you down every time you try to pass healthcare."
July 2009: "We'll fight to death every attempt you make to pass healthcare."
Dec 2009: "We will destroy you if you even consider passing healthcare."
March 2010: "We can't believe you just passed healthcare."
April 2010: "We are going to overturn healthcare."
Sept 2010: "We are going to repeal healthcare."
Jan 2011: "We are going to destroy healthcare."
Feb 2012: "We're gonna elect a candidate who'll revoke healthcare NOW."
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Aug 2012: "American people'll never re-elect you-they don't want healthcare."
Oct 2012: "We can't wait to win the election and explode healthcare."
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Sept 2013: "We are going to leverage a government shutdown into defunding, destroying, obliterating, overturning, repealing, dismantling, erasing and ripping apart healthcare."
Oct 2013: "WHY AREN'T YOU NEGOTIATING???""
 

AttyPops

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The whole tobacco tax thing is a form of social engineering, designed to keep healthcare costs down.
It's ALSO a justification for another tax. As it's an easy "sin tax" target. Alcohol is too, except it has broader use/acceptance so they just pick on tobacco. Besides, there's prohibition era repercussions to "learn" from. Alcohol is easy to make.

Note how it's targeted...the "Fire Safe" thing that ruined cigs, the taxes, the premium increases/penalties, hiring restrictions, smoking restrictions.

It's an irony, since tobacco and cotton built the country at one time.

EDIT: I should add that it's been going on for decades and across parties for the most part.
 
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Fulgurant

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The whole tobacco tax thing is a form of social engineering, designed to keep healthcare costs down.
It's ALSO a justification for another tax. As it's an easy "sin tax" target. Alcohol is too, except it has broader use/acceptance so they just pick on tobacco. Besides, there's prohibition era repercussions to "learn" from. Alcohol is easy to make.

Note how it's targeted...the "Fire Safe" thing that ruined cigs, the taxes, the premium increases/penalties, hiring restrictions, smoking restrictions.

It's an irony, since tobacco and cotton built the country at one time.

Right. The problem with sin taxes is that at some point the revenue from them becomes an end in itself. What may have started as an altruistic endeavor to discourage harmful behavior inevitably becomes little more than a politically expedient source of cash to fund the pet project du jour -- and in an economic environment like ours, the sin tax can become so politically expedient relative to other, more generalized taxes that the government finds itself actually encouraging (or at the least, protecting) the very behavior that they originally sought to discourage.

The bill that wv2win referenced is a perfect example. It's designed to trap smokers so that they pay the sin tax whether they commit the sin or not.
 

djezewski

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This whole Obama care has me annoyed. My son can sign up for insurance where he works in Jan. I wanted to compare the Obamacare rates. What I do not like to you cannot see any of these rates without actually filling out an application with NYS Dept of health in their marketplace. I feel like this an invasion of privacy. I feel that you should be able to remain anonymous during this process.
 

Petrodus

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I'm not going to the website and pretend I'm applying for this and answer questions
just to find out the costs for various plans. I'm not giving up my privacy or volunteering
to divulge information to a government that I don't trust to safe guard my personal information.

Would like to have a list of the questions asked by the government.

Heard someone say today ... one of the questions asked was what radio station one listens to.
I don't know .... One thing is for sure ... Most people going to the website are NOT signing up
but go there just to find out information.
 

djezewski

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I'm not going to the website and pretend I'm applying for this and answer questions
just to find out the costs for various plans. I'm not giving up my privacy or volunteering
to divulge information to a government that I don't trust to safe guard my personal information.

Would like to have a list of the questions asked by the government.

Heard someone say today ... one of the questions asked was what radio station one listens to.
I don't know .... One thing is for sure ... Most people going to the website are NOT signing up
but go there just to find out information.

Well said! I hope my son just buys the insurance from his job. I know if won't be free from the so called affordable healthcare act anyway. I am tired of all the tracking and thank God I have insurance from my husband. No questions from his plan on smoking, e-cigs, etc at this time.
On another note. I am not a big fan of CVS after their bs with their employees. I get my medications from a small Mom and Pop drug store and avoid CVS when possible.
 

Uma

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That really is chilling -- a shameless money grab wrapped in pandering, do-gooder packaging.

It's no surprise that such a bill, purporting to fund education through a massive tax increase on all tobacco and nicotine-delivery products*, would come from Democrats. You may very well be right that most of our opposition in government, at this time, has come from the left. But as you say, we can only evaluate each politician's position as it comes up; there's no reason to believe that conservative-leaning officials wouldn't also gravitate to the "for the children" narrative in an albeit different context.

And there's a heavy opposition to vaping in the private sector too. Tobacco companies are largely passive observers at this point as far as I can tell, but their interest clearly aligns with people who would support the above-referenced bill. Big Tobacco is, if you like, a malignant bystander, biding its time, possessed of the resources to profit from almost anything the government/FDA decides to do to the vaping industry. BT may even be actively working against us behind the scenes.

* - I found the following comment on the popvox website particularly apt. When you read through the bill, it's not entirely obvious what's going on; you can only evaluate the amounts discussed in each item based on their relationship with one another. In fact, in some cases the tax hikes are so huge that the formatting makes them look like a typo -- but this guy sums it up admirably:

"You raised the tax on one of the poorest minority groups in America, those so poor they are forced to roll their own cigarettes daily from shreds of tobacco and scraps of paper, by over TWO THOUSAND PERCENT with the SCHIP tax just three years ago. And now you want to add another 2,000%+ over 2008's base rate tax on TOP of that?
Do you remember the huge stink that was made years ago when Congress wanted to raise the tax on YACHTS by just 10%? And yet you're considering a tax that would result in over a 4,000% increase in just four years on poor people? You should be royally ashamed of yourselves.
Michael J. McFadden
Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
Philadelphia, PA"​

They proudly declare that the poor, the African American, and other minorities are the main people who smoke, hence the main people they rape and plunder. (TobaccoFree places).
 

Mohamed

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And then there is this monstrosity...
https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1403

‘(3) SMOKELESS TOBACCO SOLD IN DISCRETE SINGLE-USE UNITS- On discrete single-use units, $100.50 per each 1,000 single-use units.’.
Is that roughly $0.10 per cartridge? I'm having a hard time understanding what the "discrete singe-use units" is referring to in regards to mg/ml.

(4) DISCRETE SINGLE-USE UNIT- The term ‘discrete single-use unit’ means any product containing tobacco that--

‘(A) is intended or expected to be consumed without being combusted; and

‘(B) is in the form of a lozenge, tablet, pill, pouch, dissolvable strip, or other discrete single-use or single-dose unit.’.
This sounds like 1 cartridge, 1 disposable cig, or 1 "dip" of snus, etc., but no where am I reading anything about ejuice bought in bottles.

I'm currently at 24 mg/ml so if they arbitrarily say 8 mg/ml is "one single discrete unit" does that mean my juice would go roughly $0.30 per ml the equivalent of $10 for a 30ml bottle?
 

Mohamed

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This whole Obama care has me annoyed. My son can sign up for insurance where he works in Jan. I wanted to compare the Obamacare rates. What I do not like to you cannot see any of these rates without actually filling out an application with NYS Dept of health in their marketplace. I feel like this an invasion of privacy. I feel that you should be able to remain anonymous during this process.

I'm not going to the website and pretend I'm applying for this and answer questions
just to find out the costs for various plans. I'm not giving up my privacy or volunteering
to divulge information to a government that I don't trust to safe guard my personal information.

Would like to have a list of the questions asked by the government.

Heard someone say today ... one of the questions asked was what radio station one listens to.
I don't know .... One thing is for sure ... Most people going to the website are NOT signing up
but go there just to find out information.

Can't you just fill in NA...I agree what does that have to do with anything. If I listen to Classical does that make me a lower risk health care patient than a Heavy Metal listener?

I wonder if it's considered fraud to make up a name and social security but fill the rest out as normal just so you can "see" what your options would be.
 

djezewski

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Can't you just fill in NA...I agree what does that have to do with anything. If I listen to Classical does that make me a lower risk health care patient than a Heavy Metal listener?

I wonder if it's considered fraud to make up a name and social security but fill the rest out as normal just so you can "see" what your options would be.
In NYS they go by your required e-filing of taxes user name and password and make you create an account...huh? Why do you need to create an account? There is no way I want to have anything to do with this if I don't have to.
 

Petrodus

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I wonder if it's considered fraud to make up a name and social security but fill the rest out as normal just so you can "see" what your options would be.
You don't think the government knows the location of the computer and thus able to know the owner.
The days of privacy is over especially on the Net. Log on to anything and your IPS is known and tracked
and logged and cross-referenced to who you are.

By the way ... The government loves and encourages use of Facebook ... for their reasons.
 

Mohamed

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You don't think the government knows the location of the computer and thus able to know the owner.
The days of privacy is over especially on the Net. Log on to anything and your IPS is known and tracked
and logged and cross-referenced to who you are.

By the way ... The government loves and encourages use of Facebook ... for their reasons.

Well if you're truly worried about that take a look at proxy servers, the Tor Project, Onion Routing, etc. They don't work on all sites especially those that require 3rd party installs like flash, pdf, etc...but that might ease your mind a little bit if you wanted to attempt to try...but now I'm just getting off topic.

But if they go by your e-filing account and tax return that wouldn't help much.
 
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