Official ProVari Radius Thread

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[Zen~]

I was asking what the users reasons are for not wanting them to appeal to a broader customer base.

Oh that's easy... There are more tootle puffers than high-power vapers, they already are in the broad end of the market. I can't speak directly to ProVapes motiviations, but I can say that I believe that adding another 10% to their bottom line by going higher power and increasing their liability exposure simply doesn't make any sense from a business point of view.

 

[wvducklady]

As silly as it may sound, I am happiest vaping at 7w. The highest I have ever went is 12w, but not for long because I cannot handle it for very long. I love the taste I get at 7w, and it is not too warm for me I love vaping my hazelnut Actually enjoying it right now!

 

[RebelGolfer72]

I think perhaps the tootle puffers (of which I include myself) are just excited to perhaps finally see a quality box that is more suited to OUR vape styles... We've been watching the hi-watt race excluding us for the past year or so, and well... maybe we're a little tired of watching some folks attempt to convince ProVape into stepping away from US as well.

High watters tell us ALL THE TIME that we have not "graduated" or kept up with the times, and that unless a device has 50+ watts it's outdated before it even hits the market.

By that standard every car that came out after the Dodge Viper was already obsolete! Some people DO want higher performance, and it's great that there are cars for that, some of us want to drive to work in a safe car that doesn't have more power than we need, or more than we wish to pay for.

I see how frustrated this appears to make you, and I understand why... but please realize there are people on the other side that are equally as frustrated with the notion that unless it's high power, it's of no value. I think I speak for many of us when I say we respectfully disagree.

This has been a pretty civil thread, all things considered, especially considering these types of threads turn into flame wars all over the internet. No matter what, somebody in this thread isn't going to get what they truly desire, and in light of that, the maturity level has been astonishingly high.

I hope we learn more about the Radius later today, there are MANY unanswered questions. If things don't head toward your vape style, I feel bad that you'll be disappointed, but let the tootle puffers (and we number in the millions) have their day.

Partially correct.
Take the SX350 based boxes. Yes thy top out at 60W (some higher) on one battery...120 on 2 batteries. BUT they also go down as low as 5W. So these devices are not just catering to those who need more power and neglecting those whO don't. They expand the range in order to accomodate all but the most extreme cloud chasers.

And all this talk about "most vapers" or "the majority of vapers", and how they don't want or need above 15, 20, 30w or whatever number is referred to at the time, is kind of misleading. I agree that the majority of vapers are on cigalikes. To this "majority", an ego and ce4 is "hardcore vaping", and anything bigger than that (ProVari 2/ carto tank or anything more "advanced") is all grouped into the same category as the 18yr old hipster blowing clouds with a 600w box.

So to be more accurate, those who use ProVari, or VV/VW/Mechanical devices in the same ranges covered by ProVape offerings are really the minority. I would venture to say the number of vapers who Vape at higher than 20w outnumbers the vapers who Vape unde 20w AND are not using egos/cigalikes. Not doubting, however the cigalikes and ego users are truly the majority of vapers.
My best estimate to the breakdown of vapers would be:
-- cigalikes/ego users: 40%,
-- advanced device users vaping under 20w: 20%,
-- advanced device users vaping 20-100w: 30%,
-- and the cloud chasers vaping 100w+: 10%

 

[coldgin96]

Partially correct.
Take the SX350 based boxes. Yes thy top out at 60W (some higher) on one battery...120 on 2 batteries. BUT they also go down as low as 5W. So these devices are not just catering to those who need more power and neglecting those whO don't. They expand the range in order to accomodate all but the most extreme cloud chasers.

And all this talk about "most vapers" or "the majority of vapers", and how they don't want or need above 15, 20, 30w or whatever number is referred to at the time, is kind of misleading. I agree that the majority of vapers are on cigalikes. To this "majority", an ego and ce4 is "hardcore vaping", and anything bigger than that (ProVari 2/ carto tank or anything more "advanced") is all grouped into the same category as the 18yr old hipster blowing clouds with a 600w box.

So to be more accurate, those who use ProVari, or VV/VW/Mechanical devices in the same ranges covered by ProVape offerings are really the minority. I would venture to say the number of vapers who Vape at higher than 20w outnumbers the vapers who Vape unde 20w AND are not using egos/cigalikes. Not doubting, however the cigalikes and ego users are truly the majority of vapers.
My best estimate to the breakdown of vapers would be:
-- cigalikes/ego users: 40%,
-- advanced device users vaping under 20w: 20%,
-- advanced device users vaping 20-100w: 30%,
-- and the cloud chasers vaping 100w+: 10%

While I am not privy to the actual statistical percentages, I respectfully disagree with your estimate, especially "-- advanced device users vaping under 20w: 20%."

 

[RebelGolfer72]

This truly is the typical response from those that desire high power... "well you can just turn it down".

I can also just buy a Viper and drive it SLOW...

But... why PAY for a Viper if you will NEVER use the power? This is why Dodge sells a LOT more Darts than they EVER sold Vipers. People that require less, resent having to buy MORE, just because some people want more. There are literally hundreds of high power mods out there. People in this very thread have said "If THEY can do it, so can ProVari", but if THEY are doing it why do you need ProVari to do it too?

If the response is "Because we want ProVari reliability in a high power device", then why not just let ProVari make the highest power device that THEY are comfortable making, and decide THEN if it's enough for you? At every step, I believe in my heart, that ProVari has always made the highest power device they are comfortable making, without compromising safety or reliability.

Skewed logic. Just as you say those who like th lower power settings would "resent paying for something they won't use", I find that odd in this context. I've never heard a person say "I really like this 100w mod, and would gladly pay them what they are asking for it, but only if it vapes between 30-45W...it kills me to pay that price though since I'll never Vape it at 100w, and definitely won't Vape it at 2w!"

You are comparing to cars? How about something a bit more mundane and generic, like a Honda Civic. I know people that own them, and only drive around town, never going above 35mph. I know others who use them for some longer highway commutes that drive them at 65 mph all day..and I know others who love to push them and take them well over 100 for fun frequently. Is it as fast as a vette? Nope. Not meant to be, but it can hold its own when the speed is needed. Is it as efficient as a smart car around town? Nope, but it can do pretty good around town. All in all, it's a generic car, that will work reliably, every time, and do it safely, for all but the most extreme cases. Does. Good job to fit as many people's style as it can. Yet, I've never heard anyone complain that they hated to pay for a car that can go,that fast when all they do is drive around town.

Maybe I see things differently, but trying to alienate everybody whose vaping style doesn't fit within a very specific, narrow range of needs is kind of snobby and elitist. I still see nothing wrong with expanding the range a bit to include more people into those who fit the products. If they are so concerned with vapers safety, wouldn't they want to capture those who are vaping a bit above what the current offerings give? Or would they rather see us have to resort to products of unknown origin and quality?

 

[coldgin96]

As silly as it may sound, I am happiest vaping at 7w. The highest I have ever went is 12w, but not for long because I cannot handle it for very long. I love the taste I get at 7w, and it is not too warm for me I love vaping my hazelnut Actually enjoying it right now!

Currently using a 2.0 ohm HH coil in a Kabuki on my P3 @ 7.0 watts, 2 BOOST, J.C. Birchwood Vanilla, 1.6% nic.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

While I am not privy to the actual statistical percentages, I respectfully disagree with your estimate, especially "-- advanced device users vaping under 20w: 20%."

I'm just going off of what I hear Vape shop owners saying. Currently, most users of devices with less than 20w are still using egos and cigalikes. Once that barrier is broken for many, especially with the new subohm tanks flooding the market, there are more vaping 20-40w on APVs than under 20w

In either case, though, mod circuit board designers have no problem with programming the firmware to fire low power. I have 40w mods, 60w mods, 120w mods, and even a 200w mod, and I Vape them all in the 30-40w range. It's nice knowing that I can go higher if I want or need to, just like it's nice to know I can go lower if I need to. Likewise, I have confidence recommending some of these devices to others, regardless of their vaping style, since I know they can accomodate them no matter where they are in their vaping journey.

 

[Zen~]

Partially correct.
Take the SX350 based boxes. Yes thy top out at 60W (some higher) on one battery...120 on 2 batteries. BUT they also go down as low as 5W. So these devices are not just catering to those who need more power and neglecting those whO don't. They expand the range in order to accomodate all but the most extreme cloud chasers.

Great, so you're all set! You've found the device that suits your needs.

And all this talk about "most vapers" or "the majority of vapers", and how they don't want or need above 15, 20, 30w or whatever number is referred to at the time, is kind of misleading. I agree that the majority of vapers are on cigalikes. To this "majority", an ego and ce4 is "hardcore vaping", and anything bigger than that (ProVari 2/ carto tank or anything more "advanced") is all grouped into the same category as the 18yr old hipster blowing clouds with a 600w box.

I don't actually agree with this, that's not how I see it. But... what's the point of this? To skew the results towards your conclusion below? These are not facts you are posting, these are your observations, and I don't question that you see it that way.

So to be more accurate, those who use ProVari, or VV/VW/Mechanical devices in the same ranges covered by ProVape offerings are really the minority. I would venture to say the number of vapers who Vape at higher than 20w outnumbers the vapers who Vape unde 20w AND are not using egos/cigalikes. Not doubting, however the cigalikes and ego users are truly the majority of vapers.
My best estimate to the breakdown of vapers would be:
-- cigalikes/ego users: 40%,
-- advanced device users vaping under 20w: 20%,
-- advanced device users vaping 20-100w: 30%,
-- and the cloud chasers vaping 100w+: 10%

But... you just made these numbers up based on what you have observed online and in real life, in this country. You have no way of knowing what the breakdown is in reality.

People IN this industry do have access to market research so we can make decisions. And the numbers change weekly. Your numbers for the cigalikes/ego users is so laughably low it is actually comical. Your 20-100w numbers are completely out of line. And your 100w+ is over 10x the actual percentage.

So take your numbers and look at the number of devices sold, and do some math... START with this number... NJOY sells 75,000 to 100,000 disposables PER DAY in the US market... That is ONE cigalike manufacturer and they are not #1 in the Convenient store results for cigalikes. Your percentages are WAYYYYYY off.

See, we can't really have a discussion about broadening the market if you don't actually know the numbers. If you look at the number of devices in the market which are available in the wattage ranges you have broken down, you'll see that it is impossible for 10% of the people vaping, are vaping at over 100 watts. AT BEST, they are at 1% of the market.

So rather than this being a marketing discussion, I think it's best to go back to looking for clues about the Radius. I really can't spend a whole lot more time defending market analysis for a company that I don't own. I've done ok with My company so far, though, I think .

 

[laurie9300]

I was really impress with the not so subliminal marketing of the first eVic. Presenting the eVic!

latent castration anxiety...............lol

 

[coldgin96]

Well, gnight peoples, if anyone cares to answer the following I would really like to know the mindset. I have an idea that @Vape360 may be curious as well. considering I'm sure they are aware of the current status of the market. I'm equally sure that as a business it is to their advantage to appeal to as broad an audience of consumers as they can. Businesses like money, and despite what some people may think, it would be cool to see them reclaim their place in the industry.

"reclaim" their place in the industry?

 

[RebelGolfer72]

Great, so you're all set! You've found the device that suits your needs.


I don't actually agree with this, that's not how I see it. But... what's the point of this? To skew the results towards your conclusion below? These are not facts you are posting, these are your observations, and I don't question that you see it that way.



But... you just made these numbers up based on what you have observed online and in real life, in this country. You have no way of knowing what the breakdown is in reality.

People IN this industry do have access to market research so we can make decisions. And the numbers change weekly. Your numbers for the cigalikes/ego users is so laughably low it is actually comical. Your 20-100w numbers are completely out of line. And your 100w+ is over 10x the actual percentage.

So take your numbers and look at the number of devices sold, and do some math... START with this number... NJOY sells 75,000 to 100,000 disposables PER DAY in the US market... That is ONE cigalike manufacturer and they are not #1 in the Convenient store results for cigalikes. Your percentages are WAYYYYYY off.

See, we can't really have a discussion about broadening the market if you don't actually know the numbers. If you look at the number of devices in the market which are available in the wattage ranges you have broken down, you'll see that it is impossible for 10% of the people vaping, are vaping at over 100 watts. AT BEST, they are at 1% of the market.

So rather than this being a marketing discussion, I think it's best to go back to looking for clues about the Radius. I really can't spend a whole lot more time defending market analysis for a company that I don't own. I've done ok with My company so far, though, I think .

My numbers may be off, but I would think the distribution order pretty much on the mark: biggest majority are the cigalikes/ego users (by your estimates, 80% of vapers?), and the lowest percentage being the cloud chasers. So in essence, the percentage of vapers who would use any advance device is still a pretty small number. So your exact numbers do not disprove the order in any way. My point is, the number of vapers who don't fit into the ego/cigalikes group and who are not cloud chasers is still a small percentage of the market, and I think that the smartest thing to do would be to accomodate the biggest piece of that market as possible.

...but then again, I'm not a marketing person. I'm just a guy with over 30years experience in studying, building and repairing electronics, who had his own musical instrument amplification, repair, building, design and modification business...A geek whose name is on patents in the electrical industry, and has programmed electrical temperature control processes in machinery for manufacturing electrical products, and ultimately, an IT professional...so I can debate the "geek side" of things while wearing my propeller-beanie, but the business side of things, I'll admit is not my strong suit.

And I do mean no disrespect to you or your business. I think your products are works of art. I'm not a cloud chaser by any means, but I also need a high air flow. And if you ever produced anything that fit into my vaping style, I'd be proud to use it. So p.ease do t see this as an attack on you personally or your products.

 

[Zen~]

it would be cool to see them reclaim their place in the industry.

One cannot reclaim something they never lost. Simply because they no longer meet your needs, doesn't mean they do not meet the needs of countless others.

 

[Train2]

I think a little matter of phrasing and interpretation is causing some of the conflict.
See, I don't think folks who vape under 10 watts really HOPE that others DON'T like a new ProVape model...it's just that they are excited that FINALLY, maybe, a device has been designed with them in mind.
New mods, for a while, have been ALL about higher and higher power. And Temp Control. Nothing shiny and new for a 10-watt vaper to get excited about.
But ProVape has always been a leader in OTHER ways. Remember - for a while, when 1-2-3 ohms was common, there was NOTHING that vaped as well as a ProVari. I didn't believe it til I bought one - but there was a noticeable difference.

So, assuming that the MAIN FEATURES of the Radius are things OTHER than high power, the lower power vapers are just excited.
A better menu?
A better form factor?
A little box that looks good, but you can hammer in a nail with it?
Who knows what else they may have developed? - but again, the hope is that it's something that was developed with the kind of vaping they do in mind.

So I'm sure if someone only needs 15 watts, but you want 50, they're not going to be unhappy that you're happy if it comes out and goes 50 watts. They are being defensive because NO ONE has DESIGNED A MOD that had anything new for them in quite a while, and they want this to be it.
They want the exciting stuff to NOT be higher watts, but to be a new better experience at 10 watts.
A new mod with ProVape features like durability, reliability, great design and machining, etc...
If the power limit isn't secondary, their fear it'll be "just another hiwatt box".

Make sense?

(I just hope it'll fire at around 0.4. That'll work for me.)

 

[kates]

Still, I'm wondering why are the ' provarinati' against Provape making something for a broader audience. you are giving me what you think their reason may be, not what the reason is for the majority of the people in this thread.
It seams to me ... as a person who once held your view on vaping, that the 'tootlepuffers', to use your word, feel as though, should Provape broaden their audience, that they would thereby be leaving ya'll behind.
Or to simplify, that the low wattage vapors feel as though they have had a manufacture catering to only them, and they want to keep it that way.
Would that possibly be correct?
Despite the fact that it would vape as well at 14w as it would at 40w or 50w.

If you don't want to answer that's fine, I'm just asking out of curiosity. I've always wanted to know what makes people think the way they do.

I haven't seen any postings at all that anyone is against provape making a higher watt mod? I think everyone thinks it would be great if they broadened their market. Any debate has surely been about how high they will go given their reputation for safely?

 

[Train2]

Oh, and I think ProVape IS stretching to regain a bit of the market that they have been missing, in that since we know it'll go over 30 watts, people can pop their 0.5 ohm factory coil on it.

That's a LOT of people right there...that's what vape shops are setting up new vapers with...
They're still a "high end" device - it's not going to be competitive with an iStick or a Subbox.

But if people WANT those other features that Radius as a ProVape product will probably offer - and are willing to pay for it - being capable of using your TFV4 or SubTank means a fair number of new customers...

 

[Zen~]

And I do mean no disrespect to you or your business. I think your products are works of art. I'm not a cloud chaser by any means, but I also need a high air flow. And if you ever produced anything that fit into my vaping style, I'd be proud to use it. So p.ease do t see this as an attack on you personally or your products.

No offense taken, it's a civil discussion. And while your order of distribution may indeed be correct , the numbers ARE way askew. The high power vaper is SO far removed from the "conversion point' where I personally focus my efforts, that including them in my design process would only increase my sales by 1%. I can't speak to how it would effect ProVapes numbers, they, for obvious reasons, need to keep their market intel private, just as I need to as well.

But with that being said... MY focus is to make high quality devices for people that are at the conversion point of Smoking and Vaping... to offer intuitive and easy to use devices for people that are JUST starting vaping (bypassing the ego stage) or for people looking to move into higher quality devices than the ego devices they are currently using. I am specifically NOT designing products that are aimed towards advanced users... In essence, I'm hoping to head them off at the pass with a product that meets their needs, as long as their need is to get off, and stay off combustible tobacco.

There are billions of smokers, and millions of Ego users... I believe by focusing on THOSE points of conversion, I have positioned myself to help the LARGEST number of users, and therefore the largest segment of the market.

With all due respect, a super advanced user is not where I focus my efforts. The good news for super advanced users is... there are quite literally thousands of options available for those users. Some from companies smaller than mine, some from much bigger (offshore). I don't "intentionally" alienate high power vapers... But I rarely take into consideration the needs of that end of the market.

I hope this makes sense...

 

[USMCotaku]

I think perhaps the tootle puffers (of which I include myself) are just excited to perhaps finally see a quality box that is more suited to OUR vape styles... We've been watching the hi-watt race excluding us for the past year or so, and well... maybe we're a little tired of watching some folks attempt to convince ProVape into stepping away from US as well.

High watters tell us ALL THE TIME that we have not "graduated" or kept up with the times, and that unless a device has 50+ watts it's outdated before it even hits the market.

By that standard every car that came out after the Dodge Viper was already obsolete! Some people DO want higher performance, and it's great that there are cars for that, some of us want to drive to work in a safe car that doesn't have more power than we need, or more than we wish to pay for.

I see how frustrated this appears to make you, and I understand why... but please realize there are people on the other side that are equally as frustrated with the notion that unless it's high power, it's of no value. I think I speak for many of us when I say we respectfully disagree.

This has been a pretty civil thread, all things considered, especially considering these types of threads turn into flame wars all over the internet. No matter what, somebody in this thread isn't going to get what they truly desire, and in light of that, the maturity level has been astonishingly high.

I hope we learn more about the Radius later today, there are MANY unanswered questions. If things don't head toward your vape style, I feel bad that you'll be disappointed, but let the tootle puffers (and we number in the millions) have their day.

I understand your view point, and have NEVER been disparaging towards it, or the rootless puff style....I myself enjoy tootling now and then. But you have to admit....how many borderline snarks (and a few outright snark) came the second someone mentioned (gasp) 50 watts? It just gets so tiring.
Could provape make a safe dependable 50 watt mod? Of course. Would that mod tootle puff just as well? Of course, I wouldn't imagine provape would alienate their longest customers by creating a mod incapable of down regulating. So the question rises.....why are some SO against the mere possibility of a provari that meets the needs of a larger cross section of vapers?

Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping

 

[Zen~]

I AM EXCITED FOR THE RADIUS!
Shove a Kabuki on that bad boy and let's go save some LIVES!

 

[USMCotaku]

Ive never understood how some of the lower wattage users cannot just kick the wattage down. I run the sxm low, the DNA's low and most other newer boards will also run in lower parameters fine.
A 75w, 100w or 150w mod does not mean you have to run them wide open. Outside of trying it, just to say i did, I've never run my higher wattage mod's full bore.
Is it that some people want a mod company to make products for their style of vaping exclusively? wouldn't that deny the company income from other users via limiting their market? If so,Why would that be a good thing? I would think that people who love a company would want to see them appeal to broader audience.

I've been singing this tune for quite some time [emoji14]

Sent with one hand, the other is busy vaping