FDA Personally unworried about the regulations

[zoiDman]

That would be me so thank you! My bad, I should have read more of my NBF previous posts.

My NBF said: "You say they don't work. I find that inaccurate."

I never said "they don't work"! Of course they work for some folks and I frankly don't care what device anyone uses, as long as they either eliminate or cut back on stinkys.

My NBF said: "Arguably product in a future black market will be safer than current product in an unregulated market of a budding industry."

No argument required with your logic. That's a waste of bandwidth but of course this is a Forum so have at it and lets see how much "traction" you get with your assertion. Your talking apples and oranges with not a single piece of logic in your statement. Black markets don't appear until a given substance is regulated! You need BOTH circumstances (Regulated + Black market) in place before you make what I consider to be a specious and self serving comment. Using "future" vs "current" to use your words in case my thoughts need clarification. I'm not talking about counterfeit golf clubs or stolen inventory marked way down. Think controlled substances like "uppers' or "downers" as an example more closely related to juice.

On the other hand, if you wish to continue the discussion about black markets then lets assume for the sake of that discussion that the deeming is the law of the land and this produces a critical shortage of vaping supplies AND a black market has sprung up to fill this "demand" In this case by all means post your thoughts in this specific circumstance. All views are encouraged in this case. Until then...

Good luck and best wishes with Vinne in the alley and don't forget to bring cash.

Are you Replying to Me? Or to Jman8?

Because I'm not the One who is Advocating that the Black Market is the Answer or can be Used by All People as a Fall Back.

Although I can See that there Can be a Black Market Dynamic in All This.

 

[Jman8]

On a Forum this size, I can Guarantee that there are Many People who Do Not Know that Jman8 still Smokes.

If a Person says an e-Cigarette Works, I think knowing that the Person who says it Hasn’t Quit Cigarettes is pertinent. And gives some Perspective to the reader.

I concur with this. Though, in interest of perspective to reader, I think it behooves all of us to understand how worried mind set doesn't serve us, while concern can be of benefit. And I do not find this to be semantical, but more along lines of how balanced are we (collectively and individually) to fighting regulations and/or harsh restrictions that may come up with policy/law for vaping.

Just like if a Person says that they are Not Worried about future FDA Regulations. Many will Scratch their Head and wonder how can Someone not be Worried?

But if they know that the Person who Isn’t Worried still smokes Cigarettes, and uses a Cigalike similar to the Grandfather Cut Off Date, then they might have a Different Perspective than one who has who has Quit and uses an e-Cigarette that is Threatened by Regulations.

I’m not Going Back to Cigarettes. No Way. No How.

If you are not going back to smoking, then where's the worry? What is worst case scenario here that causes you to worry?

Maybe I would be Less Worried if I still Smoked? And the Only e-Cigarette I used was something that a Grandfather Clause might allow? And when the Regs come, and they are Bad, I would just Keep Smoking.

And as one who is current dual user, but has quit cold turkey previously, then under worst case scenario that I can imagine (but think is unlikely in shared reality), I would go cold turkey rather than going back to PAD smoking. So, if you are one who is reading this and who has sworn off smoking while also spouting off all the ANTZ rhetoric about how "smoking kills," I would think you would not be worried about going back to smoking under harsh regulations. Instead, I think it reasonable to assume that you would go away from habit/use of any nicotine product. And under the harshest regulatory scenario would realize you may not have a choice at some future point in time, thus planning now to go cold turkey from vaping (nicotine) would be on your agenda, so as to not live with a worried mindset and to overcome what is the harshest possible scenario.

Collectively, I don't think this sort of advocacy will work - to suggest that all persons vaping have a plan of action that rests on all people going cold turkey. And is one reason why I wouldn't advocate that right now for the vaping community. I would put it on the list of considerations for the vaping community as a reasonable step to take for individuals who may be frantic about what's to come.

But as I am arguably speaking to a crowd that is operating from frantic mindset right now, then the other considerations are even hard to discuss. Black market gets dismissed by this frantic group as incredibly dangerous and not even worthy of consideration. Let's not even discuss it, because well, being frantic and worried seems to serve us better. How bout we go to originators of FSPTCA and discuss moving the grandfather date so that 99% of products aren't eliminated? Frantic crowd dismisses this as impossible, and not even worth trying, because worried mindset is so much more appealing.

As noted on this thread, it is worried mindset that has FDA as big bad entity in the mix, in cahoots with ANTZ, BT, BP and BG and that has mind made up, already pre-determined to decimate the vaping industry and culture. But, hey if us 10,000 people band together and write a few thoughtful comments, then surely that will steer the ship right and together we will win.

Yep, that sounds reasonable. (Jman rolls eyes)

 

[Jman8]

seems like Cigalikes have helped you cut down on your smoking ... however, they have not helped you quit smoking entirely.

Correct. I see quitting smoking and desire to stay quit as an individual choice.

In my case, vaping nicotine has helped in reducing the amount of cigarettes I smoke and has broken my addiction to smoking.

 

[SeniorBoy]

@zoi - Sorry...This and only this was directed at you my fellow activist: "That would be me so thank you! My bad, I should have read more of my NBF previous posts."

The rest of my post was directed at my NBF aka Jman8. A little humor to lighten the load.

 

[DC2]

Reading through these threads, the FDA is the all powerful, heartless, money-hungry, bought and paid for enemy. One does not reason with or persuade such types. Perhaps it is the tin foil hat posters which end up doing the most harm...

No, one does not reason with them. One attempts to SCARE them into NOT acting in a way that would put them under the public spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

 

[zoiDman]

...

If you are not going back to smoking, then where's the worry? What is worst case scenario here that causes you to worry?

...

Sorry Jman8.

I just Don't Have the Time or Desire to get into one of those Long Debates with you where Every Paragraph is Dissected and then Multi-Quoted. Maybe Tomorrow?

But to Answer your Question, go back an Read Post #36. I'm Not Sure how I could have made it Any Clearer?

And after Reading Post #36, if you Still Wonder why I Don't Like the "Don't Worry - Everything will be Fine" concept, Read Post #75.

It think it Sums Up how things have a way of Happening in the Real World.

 

[Kent C]

My My. The Word "Worried" sure seems to be Being used a Lot Lately. LOL

I'm Not Worried about People Not Knowing that Jman8 still Smokes. Just Know that there will be Many who Read what he Post and Don't know that he Does.

This is what I posted...



Maybe it is just me? But I believe that the More you know about Someone, the Better you can Understand Ones POV or Motivations for what they Post.

Again, 'many' overstates. Esp. here with people following closely.

So you're 'concerned about 'Fairness'? But not worried about it.

There's no doubt that the better you understand someone the better you know them As far as motivations go, you'll never have certainty on that but I'm almost certain that you like to continue points ad infinitum, way past any important point has been made or not. lol. Something, I might add, that you have in common with jman .... I go until all clarity that is available is shown... but no further. I'm outta here .... unless a new point arises....

 

[Jman8]

My NBF said: "Arguably product in a future black market will be safer than current product in an unregulated market of a budding industry."

No argument required with your logic. That's a waste of bandwidth but of course this is a Forum so have at it and lets see how much "traction" you get with your assertion. Your talking apples and oranges with not a single piece of logic in your statement. Black markets don't appear until a given substance is regulated! You need BOTH circumstances (Regulated + Black market) in place before you make what I consider to be a specious and self serving comment. Using "future" vs "current" to use your words in case my thoughts need clarification. I'm not talking about counterfeit golf clubs or stolen inventory marked way down. Think controlled substances like "uppers' or "downers" as an example more closely related to juice.

On the other hand, if you wish to continue the discussion about black markets then lets assume for the sake of that discussion that the deeming is the law of the land and this produces a critical shortage of vaping supplies AND a black market has sprung up to fill this "demand" In this case by all means post your thoughts in this specific circumstance. All views are encouraged in this case. Until then...

Good luck and best wishes with Vinne in the alley and don't forget to bring cash.

Btw, I saw Vinnie last night in the alley and he said to say hi to SeniorBoy. I don't know why Vinnie had to point a gun at me before he got that message across, but he did.

I consider clones to be either current black market item with regards to vaping, or likely a product that remains available (online) after possible heavy restrictions on devices occurs.

These are products that appear to be 'perfectly legal,' but as can be discussed on several other threads, are not 'perfectly legal.' They are example of foreign interest (namely China) participating in world vaping economy and playing by rules that make sense to Chinese government which may conflict, drastically, with other country's interests. I don't see clones going away anytime soon regardless of what EU and US (FDA) come up with. By anytime soon, I mean within next 15 years, more likely indefinitely.

And we all know sales for clones are very popular. So popular that Vinnie says he is fairly certain he won't be in that market as the Chinese have cornered it and can outsell him. Well, until he gets a bigger, or darker, alley from which to operate from.

 

[zoiDman]

@zoi - Sorry...This and only this was directed at you my fellow activist: "That would be me so thank you! My bad, I should have read more of my NBF previous posts."

The rest of my post was directed at my NBF aka Jman8. A little humor to lighten the load.

I thought So. LOL

BTW - Right On for your efforts with http://www.vapefight.com/

I have linked to the "Vaping Resources" Many Times.

 

[Kent C]

Sorry Jman8.

I just Don't Have the Time or Desire to get into one of those Long Debates with you where Every Paragraph is Dissected and then Multi-Quoted. Maybe Tomorrow?

But to Answer your Question, go back an Read Post #36. I'm Not Sure how I could have made it Any Clearer?

 

[DC2]

The funniest thing about the hatred and mass paranoia is that the FDA hasn't even done anything yet and no one even knows what regulations will end up enacted- even the FDA...

So we should wait until they pass it before we react to it?
How very Nancy Pelosi of you.

 

[DC2]

I disagree with the op's opinion and views on regulations, I strongly disagree with those who seek to prevent his opinion from being posted.

Agreed.

Of course I don't want to prevent anyone from posting their opinion.
Nor do I want to prevent anyone from reacting to said opinion however they see fit.

 

[Jman8]

Sorry Jman8.

I just Don't Have the Time or Desire to get into one of those Long Debates with you where Every Paragraph is Dissected and then Multi-Quoted. Maybe Tomorrow?

But to Answer your Question, go back an Read Post #36. I'm Not Sure how I could have made it Any Clearer?

And after Reading Post #36, if you Still Wonder why I Don't Like the "Don't Worry - Everything will be Fine" concept, Read Post #75.

It think it Sums Up how things have a way of Happening in the Real World.

Post #36 comes across to me in same vein as "for the children." Glad to discus that in multi-quote discussion, for accuracy, as may be (mutually) desired.

Post #75 has too much stereotyping in it to comment on, in way that I think would lead to reasonable discussion. In short, the concerned group that isn't frantic over FDA proposed regulations isn't saying "everything will be fine" so the little straw man that you've used in vain attempt to pigeon hole your opposition is lacking in credibility.

 

[Oliver]

BTW - It would be Interesting if there was a Follow Up survey on the 12% who have reduced there Smoking in 3 Months or so.

Funny you should say that

 

[zoiDman]

Funny you should say that

I would have be Very Surprised if you hadn't consider doing just that SJ.

 

[SeniorBoy]

I thought So. LOL

BTW - Right On for your efforts with http://www.vapefight.com/

I have linked to the "Vaping Resources" Many Times.

Thanks so much for the link love

Btw, I saw Vinnie last night in the alley and he said to say hi to SeniorBoy. I don't know why Vinnie had to point a gun at me before he got that message across, but he did.

I consider clones to be either current black market item with regards to vaping, or likely a product that remains available (online) after possible heavy restrictions on devices occurs.

These are products that appear to be 'perfectly legal,' but as can be discussed on several other threads, are not 'perfectly legal.' They are example of foreign interest (namely China) participating in world vaping economy and playing by rules that make sense to Chinese government which may conflict, drastically, with other country's interests. I don't see clones going away anytime soon regardless of what EU and US (FDA) come up with. By anytime soon, I mean within next 15 years, more likely indefinitely.

And we all know sales for clones are very popular. So popular that Vinnie says he is fairly certain he won't be in that market as the Chinese have cornered it and can outsell him. Well, until he gets a bigger, or darker, alley from which to operate from.

LOL. Finally in this thread so thanks for raising the "clone" and Juice via Fasttech et all issue which is as you state is very popular and IMHO certainly worthy of discussion today. I need to research this issue. How was it handled in 2009-2010 which is before my time?

Struck down in 2010 by Judge Leon: Judge Orders F.D.A. to Stop Blocking Imports of E-Cigarettes From China http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/business/15smoke.html?_r=0

If their is another thread around here that focuses on this issue of China imports that might be better?

 

[Jman8]

If their is another thread around here that focuses on this issue of China imports that might be better?

Just do a forum search on "clones." There are discussions it seems every other week on this topic, and they often seem to repeat the same points, IMO.

I am one who has come to peace with clones because I see them as viable way to get around certain FDA regulations. Not "the answer" but a viable response to whatever policy makers in EU and North America think they can do to control the (world) market. I think China will weigh in post FDA Final Rule and won't be changing a whole lot to appease zealots. Not when there are billions of dollars to be made and a high demand for product.

 

[DC2]

I am personally not worried, because I have 10 years worth of supplies, and 10 years worth of frozen nicotine concentrate.
And I am personally not worried because my niece still smokes, and I don't care if she dies from it.

Yeah.

Step up, or step out.
This conversation is not for you.

 

[Jcdew67]

I agree with you on Cigalikes BUT I think second generation+ ecigs would help most quit on first try as long as they have enough nic content and a flavor they like.

I am not sure what defines a Heavy smoker but I was at 2 cartons a week(36 years) of Full Flavor Marlboro,I was able to quit totally for over 4 years with not one cigarette after my first day of a ecig. I started out dripping with a JoyeEgo and a 1.5lr atty and 2.4% nic and enjoyed basically my first flavor.
My Mother and Father smoked for 50+ years and my Dad smoked 3 cartons a week while my Mother was at 2.5,they were able to quit just like me. My twin brother had exact same results as me but he,his wife,son and daughter used 1.5LR carts.
I started by dripping with a 1.5lr atty and a JoYe Ego battery,I got a Starter kit for $39 at a Nashville Store that had just opened up.

None of us have had one cigarette,not one and there have been times I forgot a fresh battery,etc and no way to vape all day and didn't desire a cigarettes at all.

 

[dragonpuff]

And my point is if they work for some people, as you have stated, then it is inaccurate to make the blanket statement of "they will not work" or "they do not work."

There will never be a product that works 100% of the time for all people. I grant that many, perhaps even most, eCig users who are seeking cessation will benefit more using larger devices. But again, I don't see the purpose in putting down cigalikes (to point of saying of they will not work) when another product, mods, has better chance of working for, as you have noted, a different type of smoker.

Sigh... I see what you're doing here as splitting hairs, unnecessarily, and missing the larger goal at hand.

I did not say they do not work, I said they do not work for the majority of people trying to achieve complete abstinence, especially heavy smokers. There is a huge difference there. If your goal is to be able to "smoke" in bars or restaurants where smoking is not allowed (as many cigalike ads claim), but continue smoking otherwise, then cigalikes are for you. If you want to cut back on how much you smoke, or if you are a light smoker who wants to quit, then maybe cigalikes will work for you, maybe not. If you're a heavy smoker trying to quit, then forget it.

In other words, cigalikes have a quit rate more similar to NRTs than to second and third generation APVs. In my opinion, if your product's quit rate can be easily compared to that of nicorette gum, your product does not work well enough. End of story.

And what is our goal here in fighting these regulations? Is it to make sure we have access to any e-cig, or is it to make sure that our access to e-cig products is sufficient enough to guarantee that all smokers have a real chance at sustaining complete abstinence?

Btw, I smoked at level of 1 to 1.5 PAD. As a dual user, using only cigalike type devices, I currently smoke a pack a week, and in last 6 months have had 2 months where I smoked a pack a month, or less. Given my history with cold turkey and with my knowledge/experience of vaping, I believe I could cease smoking at any time, that I choose.

And there you go, proving my point ever so perfectly You have not sustained abstinence with cigalikes as you generally smoke at least 1 cigarette a day (which is far better than before of course, but is still not quite quitting), but you believe you can quit if you want to! Well, sir, I believe that pigs can fly, but that doesn't make it so! (Though if they could, their wings would be delicious...)