PG is bad for people with kidney disorders (I can no longer vape in the house)

[ProStreet]

We just found out my wife has some serious kidney problems. 1 kidney is pretty much done and the other appears normal but is not functioning as it should. Her creatinine level is way high at 8.2 and they are not sure why yet. Needless to say I am freaking out and upset to the point that I am getting the shakes and upset stomach etc etc.


For some reason I thought to look up affects of PG. What I found made my heart stop for a second. PG is NOT good for people with kidney disorders.


PROPYLENE GLYCOL


Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
No adverse health effects via inhalation.
Ingestion:
Relatively non-toxic. Ingestion of sizable amount (over 100ml) may cause some gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems.
Skin Contact:
Mild irritant and defatting agent, especially on prolonged contact.
Eye Contact:
May cause transitory stinging and tearing.
Chronic Exposure:
Lactic acidosis, stupor and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Kidney disorders.



I broke down and have had a couple analogs over the last 2 days when we found out all of this stuff.

 

[Katattack]

I believe that's based upon the finding that prolonged intravenous lorazepam therapy delivered with PG in the mix has at times lead to a further decrease in kidney function in patients with pre-existing renal impairment.
I'm going to try to find more information on this. I mean look into the whole thing not just info to support what I'm thinking.

 

[schaedj]

Inhalation:
No adverse health effects via inhalation.
Ingestion:
Relatively non-toxic. Ingestion of sizable amount (over 100ml) may cause some gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Kidney disorders.



I broke down and have had a couple analogs over the last 2 days when we found out all of this stuff.

Sorry to hear about your wife.
I can't tell you what to do, but going back to analogs can't be an improvement.
If there was a impact on the kidneys from inhalation, wouldn't they have to list that?
I also noticed on the MSDS that it can break down to CO or aldehydes when it is heated to decomposition. Does vaping heat it to decomposition? 8-o

 

[Metstoo]

My dad's wife has poly-cystic kidney syndrome. Her kidney's gradually shut down. However, she has been on dialysis for 3 years now and recently started home dialysis. She is healthier then ever! While it's not the greatest news ever, please don't despair. There is hope!

As for the PG, are you the only vaper in the house or does your wife vape? You can always switch to VG and/or vape outside (if you are the only vaper) just in case.

 

[ProStreet]

My dad's wife has poly-cystic kidney syndrome. Her kidney's gradually shut down. However, she has been on dialysis for 3 years now and recently started home dialysis. She is healthier then ever! While it's not the greatest news ever, please don't despair. There is hope!

As for the PG, are you the only vaper in the house or does your wife vape? You can always switch to VG and/or vape outside (if you are the only vaper) just in case.

What is going on with her has all 5 Dr's and specialist's puzzled. They cant figure out why the one kidney looks normal but is not functioning like it should. Tomorrow she goes for more blood work then off to the blood specialist. They think she has some sort of infection because her spleen is enlarged and a lymph node next to her kidney doesn't look right like it has a growth on it. Kidney guy thinks that may be squeezing off proper flow to the kidney that looks good but they have no clue what it is or anything. they are calling it a medical mystery at this point.


I am the only vaper. She quit cold turkey 3 years ago. I hate to admit it but she is much more strong willed than I am. Just to be on the safe side I will likely start going outside to vape.

 

[Metstoo]

I hope they find a solution for her soon!

As for the PG, I doubt the small amounts she may be getting second-hand would be a real medical concern so try not to harbor any guilt! From what I've read here and there, she'd have to be sucking directly on a fog machine to get enough PG to affect her so severely.

Still, I'd be vaping outside too, though, just to be safe until you know what's what with her condition. Best to be overly cautious.

 

[AlexTM]

I wouldn't worry too much - at most she could get a fraction of what you vape, and that's on average like 2-3ml. She probably gets as much from food, cosmetics and stuff, because PG is really, really common.

If you are still worried, switch to VG juiced when you are around her.

But those kidney problems were reported, AFAIR, with really far, far larger amounts.

 

[Lab]

i highly doubt that she would get the amounts that would cause reaction from you using in the house.. but leave the room and clean up after yourself... just look at all the items in your house that contain pg.. in all honesty i would be outside too if i was put in that situation even though i dont think that it is that high of risk.. at least it is warming up out..

bring it up to a doctor though since if it is that bad you might want to remove a bunch of household items too..

hope the tests find out what is going on and are able to get the healthy kidney working properly..

it is also not good to inhale for ppl with asthma..


what you posted though is for large amounts..
Ingestion:
Relatively non-toxic. Ingestion of sizable amount ****(over 100ml)***** may cause some gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems.

 

[ToneBone]

Hmm... I only have one kidney. I had surgery about 11 years ago to have the other one taken out. It was giving me ultra-high blood pressure with no symptoms. I feel fine so far vaping.. only VG tho.. PG is a lil rough. Hope she feels better!

Tony

 

[N00bx7]

I also noticed on the MSDS that it can break down to CO or aldehydes when it is heated to decomposition. Does vaping heat it to decomposition?

I think this has been talked about before and from what I remember the attys dont get hot enough. Might wanna search the forums if you are concerned about it though.

Sorry to hear about your wife man like others said you can always switch to VG to ease your worries.

 

[Brewster 59]

i highly doubt that she would get the amounts that would cause reaction from you using in the house.. but leave the room and clean up after yourself... just look at all the items in your house that contain pg.. in all honesty i would be outside too if i was put in that situation even though i dont think that it is that high of risk.. at least it is warming up out..

bring it up to a doctor though since if it is that bad you might want to remove a bunch of household items too..

hope the tests find out what is going on and are able to get the healthy kidney working properly..

it is also not good to inhale for ppl with asthma..


what you posted though is for large amounts..
Ingestion:
Relatively non-toxic. Ingestion of sizable amount ****(over 100ml)***** may cause some gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems.

Really? not that I doubt you but do you have a creditable source I can look at that states PG is bad for astimatics? I not being a smart a but my wife is astimatic and if its bad for her I need to know.

 

[River]

We just found out my wife has some serious kidney problems. 1 kidney is pretty much done and the other appears normal but is not functioning as it should. Her creatinine level is way high at 8.2 and they are not sure why yet. Needless to say I am freaking out and upset to the point that I am getting the shakes and upset stomach etc etc.


For some reason I thought to look up affects of PG. What I found made my heart stop for a second. PG is NOT good for people with kidney disorders.


PROPYLENE GLYCOL


Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
No adverse health effects via inhalation.
Ingestion:
Relatively non-toxic. Ingestion of sizable amount (over 100ml) may cause some gastrointestinal upset and temporary central nervous system depression. Effects appear more severe in individuals with kidney problems.
Skin Contact:
Mild irritant and defatting agent, especially on prolonged contact.
Eye Contact:
May cause transitory stinging and tearing.
Chronic Exposure:
Lactic acidosis, stupor and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Kidney disorders.



I broke down and have had a couple analogs over the last 2 days when we found out all of this stuff.

chronic ingestion would be like a pint or more. so as long a nobody is drinking it they should be fine.

 

[Lab]

Really? not that I doubt you but do you have a creditable source I can look at that states PG is bad for astimatics? I not being a smart a but my wife is astimatic and if its bad for her I need to know.

i cant remember where i read it at.. it was dealing with fog machines.. and them causing asthma attacks.. so i would see it as a low risk unless chain vaping.. trying to find the post on it.. but i am not at home so i am running off someones unsecured network and its not a good signal

 

[Drozd]

Hey ProStreet..
that PG thing you quoted is from too much of it as an injectable medication or from over use as a topical for burns..

Here's some more information from the CDC's Agency for Toxic substances and disease registry.. Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM

note these:
About 45% of an absorbed propylene glycol dose is excreted by the kidneys unchanged or as the glucuronide conjugate.

Topical application to injured skin (as a component of burn creams) or intravenous administration (as an excipient in certain anticonvulsant, antianginal, antibiotic, or other medications) has sometimes been associated with: •renal failure

Lack of Renal Effects: Propylene glycol has not been associated with nephrotoxicity caused by calcium oxalate in humans. Unlike ethylene glycol, propylene glycol is not metabolized to oxalic acid, so calcium oxalate is not deposited in the kidneys (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry 1997).


This post was made to help at least calm your fears somewhat, it was in no way intended to completely blow off what you're saying...best practice is always to use caution and consult a doctor...I would however print out that page from the CDC and take it along with you for the tests and explain your use of PG and how and show him that...let them do the research and let the doctors rule it out..

 

[Drozd]

i cant remember where i read it at.. it was dealing with fog machines.. and them causing asthma attacks.. so i would see it as a low risk unless chain vaping.. trying to find the post on it.. but i am not at home so i am running off someones unsecured network and its not a good signal

I find this statement somewhat suspect as an ingrediant in air sanitizers, breathing treatments, and nebulizers...

I think the differences in industrial or commercial grade and the Pharmaseutical grade that we're using should be recognized..

in other words theres lots of other crap in stage fog and sometimes it's not even PG at all..

 

[AlexTM]

I remember reading that one person who did get problems with PG got them after suffering really large burns, and those burns for days being treated with a cream containing lots of PG. In other words, we are talking about rather large amounts. 2-3ml a day, most of which others don't get anything from, is hardly a problem.

Do check out the Wikipedia article, it gives some numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propylene_glycol

 

[cappuccina]

I am so sorry about your wife's condition, but ask her kidney specialist what he thinks, as you may not have to quit vaping depending on what he/she says...

 

[Drozd]

I remember reading that one person who did get problems with PG got them after suffering really large burns, and those burns for days being treated with a cream containing lots of PG. In other words, we are talking about rather large amounts. 2-3ml a day, most of which others don't get anything from, is hardly a problem.

Do check out the Wikipedia article, it gives some numbers. Propylene glycol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are some numbers from that CDC write up:

FDA considers an average daily dietary intake of 23 mg/kg of body weight to be safe for persons 2-65 years of age

Although propylene glycol is nontoxic under normal conditions, it can cause poisoning in rare and unusual circumstances.
In one case, an 8-month-old infant with large surface area second-degree and third-degree burns was treated for many days with topical silver sulfadiazine containing a large amount of propylene glycol. The infant developed acute metabolic acidosis and cardiorespiratory arrest. The daily dose of propylene glycol was 9,000 mg/kg. Serum propylene glycol levels were highest on day 14 (1,059 mg/dL) (Fligner, Jack et al. 1985).

Propylene glycol toxicity has been reported only rarely and in unusual circumstances. For example, toxicity may result from

• excessively large or rapidly infused intravenous injections of propylene glycol-containing medications, excessively large or rapidly infused intravenous injections of propylene glycol-containing medications (Louis, Kutt et al. 1967; Seay, Graves et al. 1997; Yorgin, Theodorou et al. 1997; Wilson, Reardon et al. 2000)
• prolonged dermal contact during treatment of burns

The elimination half-life of propylene glycol is about 4 hours.

So the way I'm reading that is you'd either have to ingest, recieve it as a topical on damaged skin, or be injected with it at concentrations way higher than 23mg per kg of body weight...now I don't know how much a ml of juice weighs and how much of that weight is the PG (but lets for simplicity sake just say the weight is all PG)..I don't think it's even possible to vape that much in a day..much less in under a 4 hour period where it would start to be eliminated from the body...and even less possible in a "second hand" senario

 

[Brewster 59]

Here are some numbers from that CDC write up:

FDA considers an average daily dietary intake of 23 mg/kg of body weight to be safe for persons 2-65 years of age

Although propylene glycol is nontoxic under normal conditions, it can cause poisoning in rare and unusual circumstances.
In one case, an 8-month-old infant with large surface area second-degree and third-degree burns was treated for many days with topical silver sulfadiazine containing a large amount of propylene glycol. The infant developed acute metabolic acidosis and cardiorespiratory arrest. The daily dose of propylene glycol was 9,000 mg/kg. Serum propylene glycol levels were highest on day 14 (1,059 mg/dL) (Fligner, Jack et al. 1985).


Propylene glycol toxicity has been reported only rarely and in unusual circumstances. For example, toxicity may result from

• excessively large or rapidly infused intravenous injections of propylene glycol-containing medications, excessively large or rapidly infused intravenous injections of propylene glycol-containing medications (Louis, Kutt et al. 1967; Seay, Graves et al. 1997; Yorgin, Theodorou et al. 1997; Wilson, Reardon et al. 2000)
• prolonged dermal contact during treatment of burns

The elimination half-life of propylene glycol is about 4 hours.

So the way I'm reading that is you'd either have to ingest, recieve it as a topical on damaged skin, or be injected with it at concentrations way higher than 23mg per kg of body weight...now I don't know how much a ml of juice weighs and how much of that weight is the PG (but lets for simplicity sake just say the weight is all PG)..I don't think it's even possible to vape that much in a day..much less in under a 4 hour period where it would start to be eliminated from the body...and even less possible in a "second hand" senario

Thank-you for your post.

 

[AlexTM]

PG is very close to water in weight, 1.04gr/ml, IIRC. For the (allegedly) average 70-kilo-person, that would be 1,6ml/day for the FDA numbers. Let me quote Wikipedia (since I don't have access to the original) on more than that: "In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects." The stuff is also fed to cows these days, seems they give more milk that way. And not in miligrams, either.

Ingested, though - inhaled is an even different thing, and there had been several studies about PG as a room desinfectant. No ill effects observed, even if animals lived in a veritable fog of PG. Similarly, there was a study done with very sick children, also, no ill effects on them, just far less respiratory infections.