Interesting feedback about PG

[Nuck]

Making multiple threads about the same issue expressing the same concerns on a substance you don't even vape is hardly constructive. There is a wealth of information on these topics easily searched within the forums. They include links and endless debates on these exact issues and are extremely useful.

 

[paladinx]

Yeah i have read some of them. obviously i cannot read all 20,000 posts. But so far the information has been conflicting. There are many who say PG causes all kinds of symptoms and makes their throat and lungs feel like a greased engine, and there are t hose who say its safe and have no ill effects. Some information posted states that PG is a lung intoxicant, Another study I read about an e-liquid study suggested finding an alternative to PG. yet other studies imply PG is completely safe. So im trying to sift through the information, and also to get into current discussions that are going on right now about the topic. Since this is a new technology, i rather keep up with the recent ongoing threads to see what people have to say right now as opposed to five months ago.

regards

 

[Nuck]

Yeah i have read some of them. obviously i cannot read all 20,000 posts. But so far the information has been conflicting. There are many who say PG causes all kinds of symptoms and makes their throat and lungs feel like a greased engine, and there are t hose who say its safe and have no ill effects. Some information posted states that PG is a lung intoxicant, Another study I read about an e-liquid study suggested finding an alternative to PG. yet other studies imply PG is completely safe. So im trying to sift through the information, and also to get into current discussions that are going on right now about the topic. Since this is a new technology, i rather keep up with the recent ongoing threads to see what people have to say right now as opposed to five months ago.

regards

The reason there is debate is because there is no definitive studies on the long term use of PG as an inhalant (and won't be for a long time). The threads with the endless arguments, debates and links are just as relevant now as there were 30-60 days ago and include all the information at hand. You started this thread with goofy conjecture from holistic nut jobs whose very industry is a multi-billion dollar a year scam.

 

[paladinx]

Oh and I took your advice and hunted down the critical thinking thread. Sure there are valid points. But I cannot see how it relates to my questions or concerns.

Its funny how when the video starts talking about unfounded legends, myths and dragons it made me think of the giant squid and rogue wave. both were considered fabricated stories and unfounded legends, both of which ended up being proved true by science decades later.



you know what critical thinking is to me, It is nothing more then intelligence. taking what you have learned and your experiences and applying them the best way you can to the unknowns. Sometimes a very intelligent person with a crazy theory contains more truth than a fabricated study.

Here is an excellent example that really parrallels our discussion here. The atkins diet. I got into many big debates with my uncle over it, i believed the diet was dangerous and not healthy. My uncle threw all kinds of scientific studies done about it in my face and said similar things to me that you are saying now. That my concerns are without base and i have no evidence to back up what I am suggesting, and he presented his own evidence and books etc. But my prior knowledge about nutrition and diet made me think the diet was ......ed. I advised him not to go on it. but he was FULLY convinced it was the right and healthy way to lose weight and didnt want to hear my skepticism at all. He also got very defensive and insulting when I brought up my "ignorant" concerns. Why? Because the diet allowed him to continue to eat in large quantities and he was "blissfully" pleased with it. That was his main problem, his addiction to food and over eating. So in his mind he found a safe way to continue eating and also lose weight. So those books and studies he read were gold to him.

Well, to make a long story short, he is no longer on the diet for obvious reasons. Everything I warned him about came out completely true in the end.

So in conclusion , if i believe someone has wisdom or is an intelligent person, I will never completely dismiss what they have to say. There might be some truth in it.

 

[Momof3]

And as soon as there is anything else to report, you won't even have to ask. Someone will post any new information they find.

Want to know exactly what % of PG is in this and that, look it up. Read the label. Contact the company. Google it. Do a forum search. If you don't find the answers you seek, then go ahead and post. But when you get the same answer over and over, stop asking it. If someone knows, they'll post. Would you take the word of anyone off an internet forum anyways without checking for yourself? You shouldn't.

I've read a bit about what happens with PG. Remember something about a study with dogs. Low-high inhaled doses. Somewhere between 1-3 mths. Something like only 10% PG absorbed and divided between 2 areas. Don't remember specifics as I didn't really care, just came across as I was looking for something else. So Google Propylene Glycol inhalation long term exposure, or something like that and see what you can find.

As to why people get ticked.....

Kid-"Why is chocolate brown?"
Mom-"I don't know, but you can look it up when we get home."
Kid 5 seconds later-"So is chocolate brown because someone makes it brown or is it always brown?
Mom-"I don't know. You can look it up when we get home."
Kid 5 seconds later-"So what makes chocolate brown?"
Mom-"Honey, I don't know. We're holding up the line. So chocolate is what you want?"
Kid-"No, I want vanilla. Is it a person that makes chocolate brown?"

 

[Nuck]

Oh and I took your advice and hunted down the critical thinking thread. Sure there are valid points. But I cannot see how it relates to my questions or concerns.

Its funny how when the video starts talking about unfounded legends, myths and dragons it made me think of the giant squid and rogue wave. both were considered fabricated stories and unfounded legends, both of which ended up being proved true by science decades later.



you know what critical thinking is to me, It is nothing more then intelligence. taking what you have learned and your experiences and applying them the best way you can to the unknowns. Sometimes a very intelligent person with a crazy theory contains more truth than a fabricated study.

Here is an excellent example that really parrallels our discussion here. The atkins diet. I got into many big debates with my uncle over it, i believed the diet was dangerous and not healthy. My uncle threw all kinds of scientific studies done about it in my face and said similar things to me that you are saying now. That my concerns are without base and i have no evidence to back up what I am suggesting, and he presented his own evidence and books etc. But my prior knowledge about nutrition and diet made me think the diet was ......ed. I advised him not to go on it. but he was FULLY convinced it was the right and healthy way to lose weight and didnt want to hear my skepticism at all. He also got very defensive and insulting when I brought up my "ignorant" concerns. Why? Because the diet allowed him to continue to eat in large quantities and he was "blissfully" pleased with it. That was his main problem, his addiction to food and over eating. So in his mind he found a safe way to continue eating and also lose weight. So those books and studies he read were gold to him.

Well, to make a long story short, he is no longer on the diet for obvious reasons. Everything I warned him about came out completely true in the end.

So in conclusion , if i believe someone has wisdom or is an intelligent person, I will never completely dismiss what they have to say. There might be some truth in it.

An intelligent man is just as capable of being wrong. The difference is, an intelligent man's opinion will evolve as more data is made available. It is extremely important that people understand what the basis was for making the choices they do, otherwise they really do end up with tubes pumping liquid up their ... trying to detoxify. Hilarious yes, but still potentially damaging.

 

[paladinx]

Momof3. Why not change your stupid example to make some sense. how about if the kid was in a chocolate factory and asked that question. This is a friggin forum on E-cigarettes with a thread specifically meant to talk and discuss the safety aspects of the devices. If the talk gets redundant for some, or if they have all the answers they need from google, why even frequent and post in these type of threads. This is a new technology, nothing is really certain, nothing is even really regulated. There are a lot of unknowns and most of the real feedback thats worth anything is feedback we give each other. Has there been any studies done specifically on E-smokers over a long period of time like there has been for cigarettes or snus?

No. That is why we have this forum, that is why there is a health thread, and a list of common symptoms thread. That is why people are eager to hear results, stories and feedback from other E-smokers. That is why you all seem to worship leaford. And that is why essentially the word guinea pig has been tossed around here more than once.

 

[Angela]

Being downright rude to people doesn't help matters paladinx.

You are right, nothing is certain, but we can make educated guesses. You have been given all the information that is available at the present time and, past that, it is up to you to make your own mind up. You asking the same questions in a different format over and over and over again is not going to make things certain, and I have to admit, even before I read momof3's post, all I kept thinking to myself was the old joke about the kid in the back seat....

"Are we there yet?"
"No"
"Are we there yet?"
"No"
"Are we there yet?"
"No"
"Are we there yet?"
"No"
"Are we there yet?"
"No"
"Are we .......

 

[TropicalBob]

Paladinx:

Leaford, Kate, Nuck, RatInTheHat, Lacey, myself .. we've been at this a long time in "e-smoking time". None of us are stupid. Guaranteed. We all asked questions, back in the stone age of E-Cig. We did research. We shared discoveries with everyone. It's all here. Over many months on this forum, many issues were resolved to any intelligent person's satisfaction. Dismiss our wisdom if you want. Means nothing to me.

But why we return to help is that the blind leading the blind is not a solution at all. And that's what's happening. Uninformed opinions become "concerns" and those without knowledge or experience often take those concerns with a seriousness they do not deserve.

You are smart to question. Be smart enough to know when you have the best answer. You have it.

 

[paladinx]

How was I rude? people been rude to me, u have it backwards. one is comparing me to a child and another comparing me to a ......ed woman talking about rainbows in her sprinkler. and i answered both of them back without insult. but now im considered the rude one haha. People on forums make me laugh.

Tropicalbob. you are right. Some of you guys been here a long time and all of this talk is redundant for you. I however have not been here that long. and will take some time to sift through the crazy amounts of information on this forum. That is the main reason why I ask some people specifically for their input. I guess I am searching for some answers that might not be here yet 100 percent, and also have not gathered all the information you have.

you know what got me a little concerned about PG recently. I value your opinion, and when you got that cough you posted about on the other thread i heard the concern in your post about the real uncertainty of e-smoking it got me a little worried. You seem to believe PG is completely safe from all of your research, and even you, soon as you got that cough you seemed to be questioning things. Didn't you even talk about switching to VG in case the pg was doing something to you? So that just got me thinking a little bit. But I will just shut my mouth about PG and read through what is already available till newer information comes out.

what was the verdict on that anyway. was it your cold?

regards

 

[Tallgirl1974]

Momof3. Why not change your stupid example to make some sense.

And *you said, and I quote, "people just want to make snide comments."
Pot meet the f ing kettle much?
You're not an idiot, I can tell that much, but you are a jerk.

 

[TropicalBob]

Good for you, Paladinx. You're reading around, as you should. I have no idea what the final verdict on the cough is. And that's the truth. I spent a day off all e-cigs. No change. A day on vaping nothing but VG-based liquid. No change.

Until it goes away, I won't have an answer. It's quite similar to coughs that followed colds during the years I was a cigarette smoker. My cold would go away; the cough lasted three months.

I switched liquids to test. As they say: test inconclusive. I'm still a PG believer .. for all the other reasons.

.... you're going to be a hard man to convince ...

 

[paladinx]

Well I wish you well Tropical Bob. I know what you mean about prolonged cough. One time I got bronchitis and the cough remained for quite some time before it cleared. Maybe it has to do with all the mucus that has to come out gradually. Thanks for pointing me to the vapor killing thread. Most useful response thus far.

lol@tallgirl. So I guess I am a jerk because I called her example of comparing me to a child as stupid? geez. Looks like its reached the point where they will nit pick every damn thing i say. oh well, at least you dont think i am an idiot despite my poor grammar and spelling. Thats always nice.

momof3, i didnt call you stupid as tallgirl is implying, I thought the example u gave was stupid because I am not a child no no no no no no no im not a child :::: stomps:::::

 

[Momof3]

paladinx, I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to explain why people are getting irritated with you. I have had that exact conversation and many like it. Yes mostly with children, but I don't personally feel children are stupid, merely trying to learn. Maybe including the end of the conversation would help.

Mom-"Honey, if I didn't know the answer a second ago and nothing has changed why would you think I do now? Simply rewording the same question over and over isn't going to make the answer magically come to me. If something changes, I'll let you know."

You keep rewording and reposting the same basic question. "Is it safe to inhale PG?" You keep getting the same answer "as far as we know, yes, but we don't know about anything long-term." You admit to already knowing this, then you reword and repost. Yes forums can get redundant, but it's usually different people asking the same question. Not the same person asking the same question to which they've received the only answer available multiple times from multiple people.

Science and medicine regard inhaling PG as enough of a non-issue they've not bothered with more studies. With the popularity of e-cigs, you probably will see more studies in the future. Anything new comes up, you'll hear about anything here. You won't even need to ask.

If you're looking for someone to tell you it's 100% safe to vape 10ml/day of PG over a 50 yr period, well you're not going to get that, no matter how many times you ask or how you phrase it. If you're looking for someone to say "It's okay to vape paladinx. It's 100% safe." You're not going to get that either. If that's what you need to feel comfortable with vaping, then maybe you shouldn't vape.

People here don't care what anyone else does. This is not a cult. People here aren't going to coerce you into vaping against your will. All you are going to get here is access to what is known and you will be urged to research and decide for yourself. People are even encouraged to consult their doctors.

I've honestly in this thread and another tried to be as helpful as possible. I've tried to take you at face value as someone who truly has concerns about PG. To be honest however, the very beginning of this thread started as nothing more than fear mongering, which you even allude to in the second post.

The concerns you express as to other peoples "symptoms"....Maybe they didn't like/were sensitive to PG. Any number of scientific data is available that says inhaling PG may irritate some people. It's not news. Ever heard the one about the guy who tells his doctor "Hey Doc, it hurts when I do this..." and the doctors response is "Well stop doing it then."

The recommendation is if PG doesn't work for you for whatever reason then you can try VG or just don't vape. It's not rocket science. When in doubt consult your doctor.

 

[Tallgirl1974]

oh well, at least you dont think i am an idiot despite my poor grammar and spelling. Thats always nice.

It has actually improved some, I am proud of you. I don't really think any of us give a rats patootie if you vape PG or VG or LMNOP. We don't care if you are scared of it, or if you are trying to find info about it. (I think we all should) but its the bashing and negative/false facts being thrown around that tick people off. People have listed good and BAD facts, research, etc. Do what you will with it. Its not the majority that are scared of PG or VG...I dont mind inhaling approximately 3980 less chemicals than I used to. Its safer IMO
Your approach is defensive and several times I have used humor to deflect, at this point you're just annoying me.

 

[Darlene7]

I have been following the threads on this forum as I am very new to E-cig's - I have learned so very much and the help I have received has been so valuable, I really don't think I would have hung in there and quit smoking analogs if it hadn't been for this forum.

Watching the talk about the PG and VG and side effects, etc. I was wondering how long exactly have E-cigs been around in the US and who are the pros on this forum who have smoked them the longest - seems that they would be the most informative on effects, health issues, and so forth since they started e-cigs. We really have very little information from actual studies out there yet for us to check on. Would be nice to hear from all the long-time e-cig smokers to see if they notice differences, etc. since they started - right now they seem to be our test subjects.
Darlene

 

[paladinx]

Have you ever thought that sometimes it could actually be the same people answering the same questions? There are X thousand number of people on this forum. I guess sometimes i feel that there might be others out there with something else to say. So i chime in on threads of interest.

So as there is no reason for me to ask more then once, there should be no reason for you to give your opinion more then once, 3 , 4 times either. I heard you.


"but its the bashing and negative/false facts being thrown around that tick people off. "

I never bashed anyone, I never stated anything as fact. Again, dont know what you are talking about, but more importantly. Anyone who finds me annoying, You are not obligated to read my posts or threads. Feel free to move to a less annoying and more productive conversation.

But I honestly believe that some of you guys actually enjoy conflict and arguing. So far I have been a jerk, i have bashed people and spread false facts when in reality i have done neither. If you want to say i been redundant in my responses thats fine. But dont start making up bull**** please.

 

[bigeyes]

Unless they start spouting off about conspiracies and how even scientific peer reviews studies are compromised and can't be trusted. At that point, any rational discussion devolves into endless mental .........ion and the only value left is derived from poking the monkeys.

Any study can be skewed. Whenever they do a study it is paid for by someone, and they set out to prove what the people who are paying for the study want to prove. You can google and find studies to back up anything you want if you look long enough.

In the end we all have to make up our own minds. Information is a good thing, but when you follow the money and see who paid for the information it does have an effect on how valid that information is imo.

 

[paladinx]

Bigeyes thats exactly what I said myself in another thread or maybe even this one who friggin knows. But you are exactly right. But what tropical bob is saying to me is that maybe those same concerns were already brought up on this forum and were discussed and resolved. They been here a long time, i have no idea about EVERYTHING that was discussed. Its like 300,000 threads.

but i completely agree with your logic. Studies and statistics are usually done because they are funded, Funded by who? that is the big question. Its an art more then a science. They get paid to portray a certain bias through statistics, and it can be very misleading.

 

[Nuck]

Bigeyes thats exactly what I said myself in another thread or maybe even this one who friggin knows. But you are exactly right. But what tropical bob is saying to me is that maybe those same concerns were already brought up on this forum and were discussed and resolved. They been here a long time, i have no idea about EVERYTHING that was discussed. Its like 300,000 threads.

but i completely agree with your logic. Studies and statistics are usually done because they are funded, Funded by who? that is the big question. Its an art more then a science. They get paid to portray a certain bias through statistics, and it can be very misleading.

Then why ask questions? If your mistrust science and studies then the only thing you are left to base your decisions on is conjecture thus my comment about devolving into mental .........ion and poking monkeys.

Btw, the reason that clinical studies are peer reviewed is to ensure that this cannot happen. It's also quite amazing that science has given us so much with all those vested interests running amok.

It seems like we've come full circle.