Philip Morris "e-cig"

[Huuwap]

You're absolutely right chinsk - this isn't the place for my previously posted rant and it has been removed.

I think any and all innovation in personal vaporizers is good. R&D is expensive, and the little guys can't always make that happen...but if a company with a lot of capital gets into it and really starts to change the way we look at the PV side of it (higher battery capacity, smaller form factor, better juice delivery system) I can't complain too much about it. If you refuse to buy from PM, that's great, I'm sure there will be a knockoff, assuming PM ever actually brings anything to market. If it is a quality product, buy it, and stay away from their niquid if you don't trust it. The worst case is them pushing out disposables, or proprietary patented connections...in which case stay away from it. But it could really push things in the right direction.

 

[Jim Bob]

To be repeating the obvious- one does not Need " a gun to one's head" to feed a severe addiction, though by manipulating the addiction BT did "close enough" to exactly that. Not being content with how addictive they already were, they made sure to increase the addictive properties as much as possible. It was not some "accident" it was well planned (and even well documented in their own records) . My health was good (as far as I know) it was discovery of what lengths they'd gone to without my knowledge (or permission) why I made the difficult choice to stop supporting such a business, it was HARD but a wise decision. When we know that > 90% of those who try to quit won't make it no matter how much they try to quit, well that IS bad any way you slice things IMO.

As for what it "turned into" I don't see how we could discuss the possibility of BT getting into this business without bringing out what they Have already done with their current products and WHY we don't want that in PV supplies/niquids (and it's not assumptions or speculation it is very well known)

I will be surprised if BP doesn't at some point get into "paying for some studies " which will "prove" that PV are less effective than the patch to suit their own goals. ONCE you know what folks have done you can easily see what they MAY do.... IMO

 

[chinsk]

To be repeating the obvious- one does not Need " a gun to one's head" to feed a severe addiction, though by manipulating the addiction BT did "close enough" to exactly that. Not being content with how addictive they already were, they made sure to increase the addictive properties as much as possible. It was not some "accident" it was well planned (and even well documented in their own records) . My health was good (as far as I know) it was discovery of what lengths they'd gone to without my knowledge (or permission) why I made the difficult choice to stop supporting such a business, it was HARD but a wise decision. When we know that > 90% of those who try to quit won't make it no matter how much they try to quit, well that IS bad any way you slice things IMO.

As for what it "turned into" I don't see how we could discuss the possibility of BT getting into this business without bringing out what they Have already done with their current products and WHY we don't want that in PV supplies/niquids (and it's not assumptions or speculation it is very well known)

I will be surprised if BP doesn't at some point get into "paying for some studies " which will "prove" that PV are less effective than the patch to suit their own goals. ONCE you know what folks have done you can easily see what they MAY do.... IMO

Fair enough. As I said, I respect your opinion but will still maintain mine. The good news is that the e-cig "community" is getting a bigger voice and if they do decide to enter the market with products exhibiting the properties you outlined we have a mountain to shout it from. As e-cig popularity grows, so will that force. If we have lobbying powers to overcome it vs their bank roll, thats a whole different story. But who knows. What I can almost guarantee is that if they were to put anything like that on the market, we probably have hundreds, if not thousands of chemistry and engineering minded vapers in the community that you can bet will be tearing these things apart to see exactly what they are made of.

I also think that study released a month or so ago showing that current smoking cessation products are basically junk will weaken their influence in pushing such products. It may not be impacting them immediately, but down the road I see it hurting them a bit. I think what e-cigs have done for smokers is thus far amazing, and the uptake rates reinforce that. I see that number rising. Heck, Greensmoke is sponsoring a NASCAR Sprint Cup car (not truck, not nationwide, SPRINT CUP)! Now only if it would put Jeff Gordons car square in the wall while its wearing its Nicorette sponsors that would be something

 

[Jim Bob]

As I respect all other's opinions! I happen to believe that vaping IS saving many thousands of lives, and I sincerely hope that never changes. We as a free Nation of people should have the right to choose vaping especially when it works so well for so many of us. IMO BT joining the vaping community is bad, if for no other reasons the facts of how they've gone so far with additives in tobacco products. WE as a whole don't want or need that "press" (IMHO) . I seriously doubt they'd be welcomed with "open arms" and I see the justification of not doing so.

One thing seems to be sure the future of vaping is very much at risk and that troubles me deeply

 

[chinsk]

As I respect all other's opinions! I happen to believe that vaping IS saving many thousands of lives, and I sincerely hope that never changes. We as a free Nation of people should have the right to choose vaping especially when it works so well for so many of us. IMO BT joining the vaping community is bad, if for no other reasons the facts of how they've gone so far with additives in tobacco products. WE as a whole don't want or need that "press" (IMHO) . I seriously doubt they'd be welcomed with "open arms" and I see the justification of not doing so.

One thing seems to be sure the future of vaping is very much at risk and that troubles me deeply

Agreed, and that is an interesting perspective -- the additional scrutiny and stigma associated with the vaping community if its now in the same camp as tobacco companies. And I think the opinions expressed in this thread shows, a decent percentage of the community is very much against their entrance into this market, which might not make it a good business choice for them.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Nothing added to any of these products, including cigarettes, changes the fact that you choose to buy them and you choose to use them.

Where does this stop? At what point is it your responsibility? Can you honestly say that if you'd known about everything added to cigarettes that you'd never have started? Unless you're a lot older than I am, you certainly knew they were addictive and harmful to your health. It's always been your choice. No one did anything to you but, you. The only place we differ is that I know that there's no one else to blame.

Exactly .. the continued ragging on about conspiracy theories, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, ad nauseum still boils down to personal choice ..

 

[Striker911]

Actually, I expect that if/when somebody big gets involved in this industry, there will be a lot of unjust patent fights. I'm also pretty sure it won't be a cigarette company. I have to carry a spare kit with me because I can't get a replacement just anywhere. Once they are more available, the price will come down. A lot of vendors are currently profiting from the ignorance of the public about these things.

I would rather not give anymore money to big tobacco, but im all for the rest. Id like things like the Z tank and the provari to be affordable, for more of us. I believe more people would quit smoking if you could some how find a way to get the mini out of the hands of new people. That takes care of the mini altogether cause your not going to ever go back to a mini once u had a P with a nice tank system. So whats wrong with having the best chance of quitting? Money and in most cases availability as well. Id have a Darwin if they had any in stock 4 weeks ago.

 

[Jim Bob]

Exactly .. the continued ragging on about conspiracy theories, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, ad nauseum still boils down to personal choice ..

What "conspiracy theories" to you imply? When ANY company PUSHES an addiction (much less intentionally adds to it) that is terrible and to pretend it is not very real is sad In MY view! The very real (and clear) evidence of this is quite well known (which takes the Conspiracy Theory stuff out of the equation 100%) that makes it fact - not opinion BTW

I have to wonder HOW MUCH "personal choice" an addict REALLY has......

 

[EJH]

The device in the patent looks like a re-jiggered Eclipse.

Eclipse (cigarette) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Huuwap]

When ANY company PUSHES an addiction (much less intentionally adds to it) that is terrible and to pretend it is not very real is sad In MY view!

What exactly are e-cig suppliers doing if not pushing an addiction? They're in the same boat as big tobacco when you look at the fact that they're supplying devices and the addictive liquid to use with them.

You ARE free to choose, as is every other living, breathing person in the world. We throw addiction around like it's a filthy crook, robbing us of every ounce of free will...that's just not the case. Yeah, if we like something (for whatever reason) we'll come back for more, until we reach a threshold where x of y is too much or too little, and then we're on to something else. Don't solely blame addiction, people are very much capable of conscious self destruction, with and without the help of addiction to harmful substances.

 

[chinsk]

I would rather not give anymore money to big tobacco, but im all for the rest. Id like things like the Z tank and the provari to be affordable, for more of us. I believe more people would quit smoking if you could some how find a way to get the mini out of the hands of new people. That takes care of the mini altogether cause your not going to ever go back to a mini once u had a P with a nice tank system. So whats wrong with having the best chance of quitting? Money and in most cases availability as well. Id have a Darwin if they had any in stock 4 weeks ago.

I don't totally discount the mini. I believe that form factor is an important part of the transition step. I do not think a smoker can go from a normal cig to a lightsaber like PV immediately, rather I think they need to transition into it. The cost, size, appearance, required fiddling, abundance of choices would be a detractor in my opinion. The simplicity of a stick + pre-filled carto is much more enticing to those looking to quit or make the switch. I think the stick form factor bridges that gap, auto batteries and all. Once they get used to vaping, THEN I think they seek out the better vaping devices. At this point they are not looking for a cig look alike/replacement, but a better vaping device. What if they could make a stick sized auto battery that had all the pros of the more advanced vaping gear? And heck, what if a person doesn't want to vape, but just wants to kick the smokes, a stick may be all that person would need to get rid of the habit, and then they are done with it all.

 

[ctourtelot]

I don't totally discount the mini. I believe that form factor is an important part of the transition step. I do not think a smoker can go from a normal cig to a lightsaber like PV immediately, rather I think they need to transition into it. The cost, size, appearance, required fiddling, abundance of choices would be a detractor in my opinion. The simplicity of a stick + pre-filled carto is much more enticing to those looking to quit or make the switch. I think the stick form factor bridges that gap, auto batteries and all. Once they get used to vaping, THEN I think they seek out the better vaping devices. At this point they are not looking for a cig look alike/replacement, but a better vaping device. What if they could make a stick sized auto battery that had all the pros of the more advanced vaping gear? And heck, what if a person doesn't want to vape, but just wants to kick the smokes, a stick may be all that person would need to get rid of the habit, and then they are done with it all.

I don't discount the mini either especially since they are coming out with some really quality models now. When I used to sell ecigs, I always asked what the persons intentions were when it comes to vaping.

If they want to quit smoking, taper down the nicotine and quit altogether, then I suggest the most user friendly and inexpensive option. If they want to quit smoking, but wish to continue vaping then I'll suggest something that is upgradeable and can evolve with their habit/hobby.

I think that the fiddle factor is either a big turn on or big turn off for new vapers. When I first started vaping, I got into all kinds of tweaking and modding, but after awhile I just wanted to vape so I went backwards a bit to a slim ecig. The battery life was still an issue for me though, so I moved onto the fat batts and with the exception of a few mods, I've stayed there.

I recently picked up a new slim ecig because of the rave reviews and I think that if I had had this one available from the beginning, I wouldn't have looked any further.

 

[Jammin]

To be repeating the obvious- one does not Need " a gun to one's head" to feed a severe addiction, though by manipulating the addiction BT did "close enough" to exactly that. Not being content with how addictive they already were, they made sure to increase the addictive properties as much as possible. It was not some "accident" it was well planned (and even well documented in their own records) . My health was good (as far as I know) it was discovery of what lengths they'd gone to without my knowledge (or permission) why I made the difficult choice to stop supporting such a business, it was HARD but a wise decision. When we know that > 90% of those who try to quit won't make it no matter how much they try to quit, well that IS bad any way you slice things IMO.

As for what it "turned into" I don't see how we could discuss the possibility of BT getting into this business without bringing out what they Have already done with their current products and WHY we don't want that in PV supplies/niquids (and it's not assumptions or speculation it is very well known)

I will be surprised if BP doesn't at some point get into "paying for some studies " which will "prove" that PV are less effective than the patch to suit their own goals. ONCE you know what folks have done you can easily see what they MAY do.... IMO

As I respect all other's opinions! I happen to believe that vaping IS saving many thousands of lives, and I sincerely hope that never changes. We as a free Nation of people should have the right to choose vaping especially when it works so well for so many of us. IMO BT joining the vaping community is bad, if for no other reasons the facts of how they've gone so far with additives in tobacco products. WE as a whole don't want or need that "press" (IMHO) . I seriously doubt they'd be welcomed with "open arms" and I see the justification of not doing so.

One thing seems to be sure the future of vaping is very much at risk and that troubles me deeply

In response to both of your posts above, yea, I also agree vaping the way we all know it today is very much at risk.
PM plays a mean game in the industry, I hate to even think of them getting ahold of the e-cig business. And some of those naive to Phillip Morris act as if this is a conspiracy theory, when the things you have said is information that is easily found and certainly not 'made up'.

 

[Uncle Willie]

What "conspiracy theories" to you imply? When ANY company PUSHES an addiction (much less intentionally adds to it) that is terrible and to pretend it is not very real is sad In MY view! The very real (and clear) evidence of this is quite well known (which takes the Conspiracy Theory stuff out of the equation 100%) that makes it fact - not opinion BTW

I have to wonder HOW MUCH "personal choice" an addict REALLY has......

I don't imply anything .. I come right out and say it .. ECF is rife with conspiracy talk .. etc etc etc .. no one makes you smoke, no one makes you eat,

Does a business want to sell you a product .. ?? Yes .. Will they do what they can to sell that product .. ?? Yes ..

Do you have to buy that product .. No ..

An addict has all the control THEY want to have .. it's so easy to blame addiction or advertising, or whatever for our own failings as humans .. it's high time we started to own our issues ..

 

[ctourtelot]

In response to both of your posts above, yea, I also agree vaping the way we all know it today is very much at risk.
PM plays a mean game in the industry, I hate to even think of them getting ahold of the e-cig business. And some of those naive to Phillip Morris act as if this is a conspiracy theory, when the things you have said is information that is easily found and certainly not 'made up'.

Yeah not a conspiracy theory. I had a guy come in to buy an ecig for his father one day when I used to work at an ecig retail shop. He asked how quickly his father could step down the nicotine and I mentioned that he should probably stay at a higher level at first until he's detoxed from the other additives in tobacco.

When I started to mention that tobacco has other things in it that are addictive, he said "Oh, I know! I work at PM and we put all kinds of things in there...sugar, cocoa, etc"

 

[Jim Bob]

Exactly what additive are juice makers adding to INCREASE addiction; ...

Oh that's right NONE not even close to what BT is known to have been doing

Folks seem to want to PRETEND instead of admitting the factual happenings, that is fine with me so long as the other folks know the reality...

What exactly are e-cig suppliers doing if not pushing an addiction? They're in the same boat as big tobacco when you look at the fact that they're supplying devices and the addictive liquid to use with them.

You ARE free to choose, as is every other living, breathing person in the world. We throw addiction around like it's a filthy crook, robbing us of every ounce of free will...that's just not the case. Yeah, if we like something (for whatever reason) we'll come back for more, until we reach a threshold where x of y is too much or too little, and then we're on to something else. Don't solely blame addiction, people are very much capable of conscious self destruction, with and without the help of addiction to harmful substances.

 

[ctourtelot]

I don't imply anything .. I come right out and say it .. ECF is rife with conspiracy talk .. etc etc etc .. no one makes you smoke, no one makes you eat,

Does a business want to sell you a product .. ?? Yes .. Will they do what they can to sell that product .. ?? Yes ..

Do you have to buy that product .. No ..

An addict has all the control THEY want to have .. it's so easy to blame addiction or advertising, or whatever for our own failings as humans .. it's high time we started to own our issues ..

This I will agree with. Does the tobacco industry deliberately put additives in cigarettes to make them more addictive. YES

Do we still have a choice to use them. YES

I've known that cigarettes were bad since I was a child, so well over 30 years now. Smokers who started back when doctors promoted smoking and the dangers weren't known, have a bit of a pass as little was understood about them back then, but anyone who started smoking in the last 50 years knew what they were doing.

If quitting was absolutely impossible for everyone, ie you die without smoking once you start, then some of the posters would have a bit more of a leg to stand on as far as "we were victimized".

But, although it's hell to stop once you're hooked, it can and does happen everyday through various means so it's still free will and still a choice.

BTW choosing to do nothing but complain about the situation is still a choice.

 

[Jim Bob]

LOL Make an accusation then say " I come right out and say it" but then don't OK then!

BT has been caught (with clear documentation) of among other things spending millions to figure out what chemicals and compounds they can ADD to make tobacco even more addicting- that is a fact - not anyone's thought or opinions internal documents prove that to be accurate and nothing else can change a fact.

I don't imply anything .. I come right out and say it .. ECF is rife with conspiracy talk .. etc etc etc .. no one makes you smoke, no one makes you eat,

Does a business want to sell you a product .. ?? Yes .. Will they do what they can to sell that product .. ?? Yes ..

Do you have to buy that product .. No ..

An addict has all the control THEY want to have .. it's so easy to blame addiction or advertising, or whatever for our own failings as humans .. it's high time we started to own our issues ..

Sure "every addict" CAN - so you claim but that doesn't refute that many with cancers and other terrible diseases CAN NOT quit smoking......hundreds of thousands DIE and a major cause IS the manipulation of addiction qualities by BT

Also your opinions do not explain why addiction treatments abound and yet don't seem to work "so well" IF it WERE as easy as you would like us to believe , (it is not obviously) feel free to "own" your own issues but don't pretend you KNOW everyone else's . Until you show some real professional conditionals which surpass the REAL professional's who don't even begin to agree with your theories I will trust the real experts on addiction- not someone on the internet. But hey that's just me

Since the addict can quit anytime , how do you explain the Multi-Billion $ NRT industry, Chantix, Welbutrin etc. etc. etc. I guess it's just "too bad" they got duped into terrible addiction because some company "Crossed lines" that should have never been crossed to some but not to me. Clearly BT shares the majority of the blame for what they set out to create and did exactly that!

Doesn't matter whether one chooses to believe the clear evidence or not......it is what it is

ETA

You mention "Advertising" but seem to wish to not mention that BT targeted teens (illegal but still they did and the documentation easily proves that they did) knowing that by addicting TEENS they'd have much better odds of keeping customers. Using things like "Joe Camel" they Targeted young folks , and intentionally increased the addictive properties . How that is NO responsibility falling on BT I don't grasp the reasoning.

Simply BT did the research and found that young brains can be targeted with the addiction they "perfected". It was no accident and words cannot express how wrong that IS in my view.

 

[Jim Bob]

It is "Nice" to say "people quit every day" , but the reality is > 90% FAIL to Stay quit

Who Really thinks that is "one's choice" and free will?

It is no accident , it was BT plan all along, how anyone can NOT have a serious issue with that , especially on here is beyond me, but the longer I live the more I expect such things for some odd reason.

 

[Jim Bob]

Thank you!

While I agree that many folks like to pass the blame , rather than own up to their own responsibilities I find it odd that here (of all places) a few seem to want to defend what BT has in fact done, which in my view has no possible defense. Intentionally killing people is wrong period, no other business gets away with it , only BT. That sends out the message in and of itself in my views.

In response to both of your posts above, yea, I also agree vaping the way we all know it today is very much at risk.
PM plays a mean game in the industry, I hate to even think of them getting ahold of the e-cig business. And some of those naive to Phillip Morris act as if this is a conspiracy theory, when the things you have said is information that is easily found and certainly not 'made up'.

If the things we Know about BT (not to mention what we may never know possibly worse)do not make folks think more than twice about not wanting them involved in niquids etc. I don't know what would . I'd rather Not have unethical killers involved and I kinda doubt I'm alone in that.