Philip Morris "e-cig"

[Jammin]

Business ethics and legality are two different concepts .. if a company is pedaling an illegal substance, they will be dealt with by the law .. thus far, the substance continues to be sold as it has been now .. I have no different view on ethics than anyone else does .. I am simply able to separate the two concepts ..

Other logic just does not hold water .. we know eating lard can kill you .. we know smog is bad ..

No one creates an addict / the addict creates itself ..

And, again, I'm interested in hearing anyone back up their statements by now not agreeing with

Using logic based on other posts in this thread, we should then encourage Governmental Regulation / Extensive Testing / FDA Approval .. et al .. because, we don't want any addictive substances in out liquid .. oh, I'm sorry .. except nicotine ..

because that's what it boils down to .. using your own logic ..

You are absolutely RIGHT that is what it boils down to. I do not want to purchase liquids that have the same additives they put in analogs, thereby HOOKING me like when I smoked. I think we have that right to be able to purchase a product that is not laced with additional additives for the sole purpose of creating a serious addiction that most smokers have an almost impossible time of kicking. The only reason IMO that PM and any other of these tobacco moguls got out of this without legal repercussions is by buying people off.

There are some things in life that are naturally addictive, nic is one of them. However, for a company to KNOWINGLY add chemicals to MAKE the product have an ironclad hold over you SHOULD be criminal, not to mention ad campaigns geared toward teenagers. You can make excuses for this kind of sorry business practice if you want, I know I won't.

Right now we can buy our liquids from mom and pop shops that have built up great repuations with their client. How long do you think this will last once big tobacco gets ahold of it? So what if I would like for the product we enjoy to be left alone by what I view as a big ugly corporate monster? I don't feel I am alone in that view.

 

[Jim Bob]

You are absolutely RIGHT that is what it boils down to. I do not want to purchase liquids that have the same additives they put in analogs, thereby HOOKING me like when I smoked. I think we have that right to be able to purchase a product that is not laced with additional additives for the sole purpose of creating a serious addiction that most smokers have an almost impossible time of kicking. The only reason IMO that PM and any other of these tobacco moguls got out of this without legal repercussions is by buying people off.

There are some things in life that are naturally addictive, nic is one of them. However, for a company to KNOWINGLY add chemicals to MAKE the product have an ironclad hold over you SHOULD be criminal, not to mention ad campaigns geared toward teenagers. You can make excuses for this kind of sorry business practice if you want, I know I won't.

Right now we can buy our liquids from mom and pop shops that have built up great repuations with their client. How long do you think this will last once big tobacco gets ahold of it? So what if I would like for the product we enjoy to be left alone by what I view as a big ugly corporate monster? I don't feel I am alone in that view.

Not really...(to the bold part only)

To believe that IS what it "all boils down to" implies (and quite falsely) that the FDA has our best interest at heart and not BT interests.

We KNOW for certain that the FDA (and the Government etc. )ALL "look the other way" for BT already , stating we want them to "help us or protect us" is seriously in error . FDA approved Chantix LOL after all ( a Very Long List of examples why we do NOT want that) I totally agree with what you're saying to the rest. You are far from alone on that, far.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I have not made any excuse .. nor would I .. I'm simply stating an impartial / unbiased comment .. we need to be able to separate these things .. which, apparently, many cannot do ..

Analogs are bad / Cigarette Maker wants to keep you smoking / Nicotine is addictive / Other additives are addictive / Government lets Cigarette Maker keep selling known addictive material / Consumers Know it's Bad / Many Consumers keep using even though it is Bad / People Die From It / Many don't care and keep using it / Anyone can Quit .. people do it every day / Makers continue to Advertise / Makers still want Customers / Business is Business / A Corporation owes it's stockholders the maximum profit possible / The World is Driven by Money /

All true, all facts .. no getting around it ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

And now, back to the conspiracy theories .. when logic fails / it must be a conspiracy at work .. yet, there is no solid proof, ever, of conspiracy in the classic sense .. you would think that in this day and age, clearcut proof would surface .. yet, like Area 51, I guess Uncle Sam is just so good at covering up

 

[Jammin]

Not really...(to the bold part only)

To believe that IS what it "all boils down to" implies (and quite falsely) that the FDA has our best interest at heart and not BT interests.

We KNOW for certain that the FDA (and the Government etc. )ALL "look the other way" for BT already , stating we want them to "help us or protect us" is seriously in error . FDA approved Chantix LOL after all ( a Very Long List of examples why we do NOT want that) I totally agree with what you're saying to the rest. You are far from alone on that, far.

I was being more flippant than anything with the way I wrote that comment. But yes, to me it does boil down to my belief that we SHOULD be able to get a product that has not been tampered with in a manner that should be illegal. As for me believing we will get that from the FDA, QUITE the contrary. What I am saying is we "should" have that RIGHT to be able to purchase a product free of this kind of tampering, but it will not happen relying on the FDA and this is the very reason I am so upset that BT is going to get their hands on a product we all enjoy right now. I am going to enjoy it while I can because I am not naive enough to think it's gonna last in the exact way we have it now.

So HA and a huge resounding no; I do not believe the FDA has the public's best interest (or health) at heart, I think the many prescription drugs that have been approved that had deadly side affects are proof of that.

 

[Jammin]

In a nutshell what I am trying to say is I am sure it is inevitable that big tobacco will have their paws all in e-cigs before long, but that doesn't mean I will ever be happy about it because I know they will introduce additives to it that I won't be putting in my body again. I am okay with the risks of nic. We all take risks in life and weigh out what is associated with them. I am NOT okay with the risks of additives that are not necessary. Today I feel pretty comfortable with a few mom and pop shops/reputable vendors that I buy from. When they are gone, my new found hobby will go with it. Today, with the way liquids are produced now, I can safely say I am not so diehard addicted I can't walk from it. I want it to stay that way.

 

[ambientech]

Uncle Wille

I am with you on personal responsibility it is my fault and I have to fix it.

I also understand those who hate BT for making cigs more addictive. To say it is ok for BT to make cigs more addictive by adding other chemicals then it must be ok for people to take cold medicine and make ..... Both legal products simply altered slightly with other legal products.

 

[Uncle Willie]

The goods obtained from Mom & Pop shops are far from any guarantee of purity / quality / .. who discloses a list of ingredients .. ?? Many, when asked, refuse to disclose .. and, from factual personal experience, I have tested nic levels in various vendor liquids and have yet to find any real accuracy ..

The current PV market is still the Wild Wild West .. to think otherwise is to look using blinders ..

There is a reason the cig makers are not yet in the PV market .. and that reason is simple .. it's unproven, untested and has no long term information .. Companies are not ignorant .. if they see a profit, they want some .. however, when they assess risk, the profit can end up not being worth the trouble .. so, those that wish for Mom and Pop to stay in it will get that wish for now .. because the risk / reward is not worth it for Phillip Morris or any other company ..

Tobacco, on the other hand, has a well proven track record .. the risk/reward is worth the end result profit .. that's how business works .. and that holds true for any product .. and, it's been that way for a long, long time ..

 

[Striker911]

Well, I did not mean for this to turn into a "big tobacco is bad" thread, I more meant to talk about the patents listed and the possibility of more traditional tobacco companies jumping into the e-cig biz. I am personally of the opinion that I made the choice to keep smoking, no one held a gun to my head. I could only imagine the outrage of the general US smoking population if cigarettes were to be outright banned, even though it seems they meet all the criteria for such a thing to take place. That is my opinion and I respect the other opinions expressed here, we all have our strong feelings about smoking. The good thing is we have all made the choice to put the smokes down and pick up a PV Advancements in PV technology is actually something I am very interested in. I believe all current systems have their strengths and weaknesses and I welcome any technological advancement that would make vaping better.

good point. look at the z tank. That thing is too far out of my reach and I have a provari. Went with a Arry tank. Would have liked the z more if it wasnt like the cost of 3 arry tanks.

 

[Jammin]

Well, I'll tell ya Jim, I vape like I smoked, and I smoked when I wanted to, which was damn near all the time.

To, me, however, there is a bit of difference in doing something you 'enjoy' vs being a slave to something you don't 'enjoy'. At one time, i enjoyed smoking. It got to the point, however, I began to loathe it, and I loathed even more how it seemed almost IMPOSSIBLE to shake them. With vaping, I enjoy it, but now that it's been two years analog free and my body has purged the chemicals and hopefully most associated damage, I do not feel I have a chain-lock hold on me with this product. I go days without even picking it up. When I go out to dinner, I leave my PV at home. There is no way on this earth that I could have done that with analogs. Vaping to me is enjoyable; smoking was like being chained to something I couldn't stand, and then adding insult to injury, PAYING big dollars for it.

I even believe nic without all those chemicals even has some good properties associated with it. Not all good, but the articles I have read about there being a correlation with better memory and even some studies that suggest it can help prevent alzheimers, and parkinsons, to me, that sounds like a good thing. But you add all those other chemicals to it and I am pretty sure any value that 'might' be seen becomes rather nil.

 

[Jim Bob]

Good points!

I was young when I started and had NO clue what I was getting into, I've known many exactly the same way. The majority of my doctors smoked IN their office! Honestly I didn't really realize half the real dangers before the internet nor what BT was really doing behind our backs until 60 minutes exposed BT and what they were doing somewhere around 1994 or so . So while "I smoked" I refuse to take even close to the whole blame, BT has more than an equal share- after all that was their goal and they met that gold with great vigor in my case (and many millions of others).

IF it were not intentional perhaps I'd feel differently- we'll never know

What I KNOW is I do not want to EVER see such folks involved in this! NO excuses of "that is how business works" is going to cut it, millions of businesses survive without going to such extremes, the greed of these BT folks is beyond belief! To go out of one's way to insure more addictions, knowing their very product maims and kills , WE as a whole group should not even entertain such a bunch no matter how much $$$ they "bring to the table" IMO

Uncle Wille

I am with you on personal responsibility it is my fault and I have to fix it.

I also understand those who hate BT for making cigs more addictive. To say it is ok for BT to make cigs more addictive by adding other chemicals then it must be ok for people to take cold medicine and make ..... Both legal products simply altered slightly with other legal products.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Yet, the general feel on ECF is "We want no intervention in our product by any entity connected to regulation" ..

How then, do we insure what happened with BT will not repeat itself .. ??

And, BTW, I have absolutely no doubt BT did everything humanly possible to addict us .. but keep in mind, that is their job, folks ..

 

[ambientech]

Yet, the general feel on ECF is "We want no intervention in our product by any entity connected to regulation" ..

How then, do we insure what happened with BT will not repeat itself .. ??

And, BTW, I have absolutely no doubt BT did everything humanly possible to addict us .. but keep in mind, that is their job, folks ..

I am one of the few that agree we need regulation. I wished we as a community could figure out how to regulate ourselves but it isn't looking good.

I am a fan of Halo juice because they are one of the few that actually have a chemist create their juice. Most of these vendors take off the shelf flavorings that contain things that can cause all kinds of health problems. They have no idea of what is really in the stuff they are selling. It needs to be 3rd party verified.

 

[Jim Bob]

I think the real truth is , we're Not so much against quality control as we don't trust "regulations" imposed by the tax hungry Government- again we know for a fact they regulate some things and allow many things they well should not so long as they line their pockets deeply enough. That is not acceptable and offers no real benefit- higher prices and no assurances can't help any of us (unless we crave to spend more $ to vape - which I personally do not)...

The FDA has already been caught in outright deceptions regarding vaping and niquid- none of us should (and most won't IMO) ever trust them, and for very good reason. That's the rub, WHAT entity Can we really trust? we know of whom we can't but I have no clue what "third party" could be or should even be trusted to be honest and not sell out to interest of BIG $ from BT and BP which both have real reasons to spend a few million now to shut this down.....

BT has gotten away for decades with intentional murder; the "regulation" certainly DID NOT WORK ......it protected BT NOT consumers obviously.... so NO I don't want that type of "protection" in vaping, IMO what we now have IS much better!

Now some may "cry conspiracy theory" on that, but hey that's ok , no skin off my nose!

I am one of the few that agree we need regulation. I wished we as a community could figure out how to regulate ourselves but it isn't looking good.

I am a fan of Halo juice because they are one of the few that actually have a chemist create their juice. Most of these vendors take off the shelf flavorings that contain things that can cause all kinds of health problems. They have no idea of what is really in the stuff they are selling. It needs to be 3rd party verified.

 

[okwithit]

and you know this how?

. Most of these vendors take off the shelf flavorings that contain things that can cause all kinds of health problems.

 

[ambientech]

and you know this how?

. Most of these vendors take off the shelf flavorings that contain things that can cause all kinds of health problems.

I did my homework Search ECF this isn't something I pulled out of my .........

 

[tippyclubb]

i can almost guarantee you that when they get into this business they will try and run all of the other vendors out. i for one will NEVER buy a thing from them.

neither will I

 

[ambition]

Aren't some of us forgetting how hard we worked to become addicted to the stuff to begin with?

Not many people actually really enjoy the first cigarette, or the second, or the tenth. Remember how much of an investment of effort it took to like the taste and push through the headspins?

 

[Jim Bob]

I did my homework Search ECF this isn't something I pulled out of my .........

Help us out, I can't find anything even suggesting that MOST of the Niquid sellers use such things as "normal practice"

 

[Jim Bob]

Aren't some of us forgetting how hard we worked to become addicted to the stuff to begin with?

Not many people actually really enjoy the first cigarette, or the second, or the tenth. Remember how much of an investment of effort it took to like the taste and push through the headspins?

Correction that IS how addiction "works" on you- again it was NO accident it was researched and implemented at great costs (more costs than just $ to BT btw)