Pipe tobacco and Cigar extraction

[madbricky-Craig]

After decades of blending tobacco I can't help but mention that we use heat to change the flavor and character of tobacco. Basically, heating up a non flavored RYO is going to convert it much like the Cavendish method is used to make that pipe tobacco. I myself plan to go very easy on my extractions after I get my goodies. I will shoot for nothing higher than what fermenting pipe and cigar tobacco experiences because I want to preserve the RYO flavor. <110°f as its all about caramelizing of sugars at high temps.

 

[boomerdude]

That's good to know. I was doing 150F. Looks like I'm gonna need an adjustable heat plate.

 

[johni]

After decades of blending tobacco I can't help but mention that we use heat to change the flavor and character of tobacco. Basically, heating up a non flavored RYO is going to convert it much like the Cavendish method is used to make that pipe tobacco. I myself plan to go very easy on my extractions after I get my goodies. I will shoot for nothing higher than what fermenting pipe and cigar tobacco experiences because I want to preserve the RYO flavor. <110°f as its all about caramelizing of sugars at high temps.

This explains why heat extractions seem to always be darker than room temp extractions. I've been using the room temp soak to avoid the carmelized color and taste.

Craig, it's good to see someone with more tobacco knowledge here. If you don't mind, some of us might seek your advice.

 

[madbricky-Craig]

This explains why heat extractions seem to always be darker than room temp extractions. I've been using the room temp soak to avoid the carmelized color and taste.

Craig, it's good to see someone with more tobacco knowledge here. If you don't mind, some of us might seek your advice.

At your service, its a passion for me chasing after good tobacco and Cigars, but I must change that delivery method by a large fraction now, lol
I'm the one that's going to be a babe in the woods looking for a decent drip atomizer to test extractions next month ot two.

 

[billherbst]

I was going to start this post with the phrase, "I've always thought...," but then I realized that "always" amounts to only about 15 months, since that's how long I've been doing simple soak macerated extractions. LOL.

Anyway, it makes sense to me that cold-process macerations (room-temperature long-steeps) are the way to go if one wishes to avoid caramelizing or otherwise bringing out the sugars more assertively. I can certainly see that being preferable for people who want the most "true" tobacco flavor from the extract.

Vaping is very different for me than smoking was. I like the extra sweetness of VG or some caramelized sugars in my Natural Tobacco extracts and liquids, whereas I never enjoyed sweetened tobaccos as a smoker. I try not to "cook" my macerations, however, so the heat-assisted warm-water-bath 1-3 day steeps I do work nicely for me. I use low heat for my water baths---well below a simmer. Next batch I'll check with a thermometer.

 

[PaulBHC]

I'll be interested bill. I have a fondue pot and plate from the 70s and about half an ounce of that organic Am Spirit. Would be fun to find out the difference.

 

[johni]

At your service, its a passion for me chasing after good tobacco and Cigars, but I must change that delivery method by a large fraction now, lol
I'm the one that's going to be a babe in the woods looking for a decent drip atomizer to test extractions next month ot two.

I don't know if you found it yet but we discuss extracted tobaccos on this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ussion/519685-natural-tobaccos-part-deux.html. We also discuss gear and what works best with the NETs we love.

The best atomizers for maximizing flavor for me have been small chambered rebuildables. Igo S, Cyclone, Reomizer 2, Hornet, and Divo are a few examples.

 

[Ian444]

Today I received some tobacco samples in the post, most of them are 10gm, a couple are 20 or 25gm. There was a wonderful smell in the house after I put them on the table, and I really enjoyed breaking up the tobacco and putting it into jars. I really love being around and handling tobacco, it is rare these days! Two of the samples are RYO, it did cross my mind to roll some up, you know, just for taste testing, but after 6 months not smoking, I know the taste will overpower and near destroy my taste buds within about six drags, I know that because I sampled some White Ox recently, and now I know my smoking days are over, and that tobaccos can make excellent extracts for vape juice.

From left to right, top to bottom, Bali Shag RYO, Brown Rope No. 4 Rum, House Blend RYO Virginia, Grousemoor, English Luxury, McClelland - Old Dog, Classic Virginia 2010 and Luxury Navy Flake. I just ordered some of what was available in small quantities and which also have reasonably favorable reviews on the internet. When I smoked RYO I always tried to stick with the same tobacco, so I am tobacco illiterate despite smoking for decades.



A close up of the Brown Rope, I have never seen tobacco in this pysical form before in my life, it smells nice too, and a little bit like a cigar.



And all in jars, except the house blend Virginia RYO, I'll put some of that in tomorrow. I have eight of those larger jars and 12 of the smaller ones, barely enough.

 

[FearTX]

I appreciate it thanks. When adding flavors such as vanilla, can you add vanilla extract or does it have to be a vanilla "flavoring"?

I am but a babe in the woods to NET extractions but vanilla and to some extent coffee I can chime in on.

At one time I ran some vanilla extractions for family gifts. For me to get a vanilla extraction for cooking, baking etc. it takes about 5 to 6 months. You can get a decent one for vaping in a few weeks if you do not mind the change in flavor profile that heat gives vanilla. Other wise you can get a usable one in 6 weeks. PG and beans following the standard vanilla extract method. Slice bean open, scrape caviar out, rough up internal bean sheath cut sheaths into shorter lengths and place all components in a jar with PG. You can use water/PGA as well as this is what your typical vanilla extract is done in. There is actually an FDA standard for vanilla extracts. I believe it is the only extract with an actual standard.
Typical 1x extractions are going to be weak for a flavor modifier with e-liquids. A lot of what you can get over the counter is going to have either cane syrup or corn syrup added to it "for clarity and initial flavor punch" You can get some nice 2x non GMO, organic, free trade vanillas fairly cheap that work really well. Different beans are going to have different profiles and they are fun to play with.

My favorites, there are a few 10x vanilla extractions available, either in VG or in the regulated h2o/pga ratio. I would quiz the vendors on these as they will often have pure cane syrup added as a clarifier, usually at 1 - 2% of total volume. You would be surprised, but even using the 10x at 1 or 2% of a finished eliquid the sugar which will be at .1 to .2% of finished eliquid and can cause some pretty funky things to happen at the coil and lend to some nasty tastes and acrid vapor in just a few mils. The 10x extractions are also all reduced from 2x extractions with vacuum distillation. The heat changes the flavor profile a bit. They are very nice for boosting a weak vanilla or added that nice vanilla flair to things.

Anyways thanks Bill for pointing me to this and a few other threads. I believe I am going to shift my NET experiments over to PG from the VG I am currently using.

 

[WongNumba]

Are you sure about these units? 12 microns is a red blood cell, and 2 microns is tobacco smoke particles. Anything smaller than 10 microns will make it through to your wick and then coil no matter what you do.

[A micron is one-millionth of a meter or one twenty-five thousandth of an inch.]

Great thread, by the way. very useful information in here.

I have found that the average paper coffee filter is about 10 micron. It isn't good enough as I hate plugged wicks. The minimum size is 2.7 micron for my NET's but some are still not 100% transparent. I use a .45 micron membrane for final finish (with a vacuum pump) for assured non-clogging vape.

 

[billherbst]

Re: filtering

Regular paper coffee filters have a 15-30 micron pore size, which is larger than I'd like for NET extraction. Seems like 5-7 microns would be just about ideal in the inverse relationship between flavor and performance, but that gets into the realm of more expensive 'science lab equipment,' and my online searches hadn't yielded any results that seemed workable to me, until this morning.

I just ordered a large sheet (3' x 6', which was the smallest size offered) of reusable polyester felt filter. 5-micron pore size. The text description stated that the product was for removal of particles from water and organic compounds, so I'll cross my fingers that it's safe to use for NETs. I found the reference to this stuff on Home-Barista, where someone was using it to make coffee with less fine sediment, which is a good sign, although no guarantee on non-toxicity.

I don't generally buy stuff from industrial companies, and I was a little put off that McMaster-Carr's site doesn't even tell you the shipping cost when the order is placed. The invoice says "Ground shipping to be added." Do big companies that order from industrial wholesalers not care about the cost of shipping? I don't know, seems pretty squirrelly to me. Anyway, the sheet was $12.54; I hope the shipping isn't fifty bucks. LOL.

I intend to use this with my small 3-cup Bodum 12 oz. French Press, which I've been using as the first stage of my normal two-stage filtering, to remove the bulk of the solids from the maceration before the second stage of doubled coffee filters. I'll cut a circular piece of the 5-micron filter felt and install it in the plunger assembly (easy to do). The point of all this is to discover if I can get the filtering down to a simple one-step process that results in cleaner-performing extracts with good flavor but slower coil-crusting/wick-gunking.

I don't know the odds of this working well, but I'll report back after I've tried it.

McMaster-Carr polyester felt filtering sheets

 

[Bunnykiller]

Lol, that's a bit like my redneck powder drop fix for my Dillon 650; old computer fan, cut the vanes to be off balance and it ensured every drop was within 0.5 grain of the last

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

LOL OT... but instead of the unbalanced fan, I use one of those vibrating toothbrushes on my 650. I have it mounted right below the slide, works great

 

[FearTX]

Re: filtering

Regular paper coffee filters have a 15-30 micron pore size, which is larger than I'd like for NET extraction. Seems like 5-7 microns would be just about ideal in the inverse relationship between flavor and performance, but that gets into the realm of more expensive 'science lab equipment,' and my online searches hadn't yielded any results that seemed workable to me, until this morning.

I just ordered a large sheet (3' x 6', which was the smallest size offered) of reusable polyester felt filter. 5-micron pore size. The text description stated that the product was for removal of particles from water and organic compounds, so I'll cross my fingers that it's safe to use for NETs. I found the reference to this stuff on Home-Barista, where someone was using it to make coffee with less fine sediment, which is a good sign, although no guarantee on non-toxicity.

I don't generally buy stuff from industrial companies, and I was a little put off that McMaster-Carr's site doesn't even tell you the shipping cost when the order is placed. The invoice says "Ground shipping to be added." Do big companies that order from industrial wholesalers not care about the cost of shipping? I don't know, seems pretty squirrelly to me. Anyway, the sheet was $12.54; I hope the shipping isn't fifty bucks. LOL.

I intend to use this with my small 3-cup Bodum 12 oz. French Press, which I've been using as the first stage of my normal two-stage filtering, to remove the bulk of the solids from the maceration before the second stage of doubled coffee filters. I'll cut a circular piece of the 5-micron filter felt and install it in the plunger assembly (easy to do). The point of all this is to discover if I can get the filtering down to a simple one-step process that results in cleaner-performing extracts with good flavor but slower coil-crusting/wick-gunking.

I don't know the odds of this working well, but I'll report back after I've tried it.

McMaster-Carr polyester felt filtering sheets

Bill I use a Porcelain Coors Filter and Erlenmeyer vacuum flask with rubber stopper and a 9$ hand operated vacuum pump from harbor freight. You can get all the elements individually off of ebay. The Coors filter funnels can be had for under 10$ as well as the Erlenmeyer vacuum flasks. You can but an entire kit minus the vacuum filter for under 50$ and the kit with vacuum pump for 80$. all from ebay, individual pieces are cheaper though.

Quantitative filter paper is a bit expensive but you can get a package of borosilicate fiber paper and the papers can be re-used, you can wash them or torch them to get rid of the gunk. Regular quantitative papers are a bit cheaper but can only be reused a few times. They can all be had in grades from under 1 micron up to 30 micron.

Funnel

Lab Coors Original Porcelain Ceramic Strainer Funnel 04 44ml | eBay

Flask

Kimax No 27060 Glass Graduated Vacuum Filter Flask 1000ml | eBay

Kit for 69.99 (This is a good deal) You can use it to power filter with the media you already bought.

1000ml Filtering Kit Vacuum Pump with Gauge Filter Paper Filtration Flask | eBay

 

[billherbst]

Thanks, FearTX.

I'll try the 5-micron poly felt filter in the French Press first, then if that doesn't please me, I have your links to move to something more sophisticated. By the way, shipping turned out to be eight bucks, so the 3'x6' sheet of poly filter cost me $20 all told. Since I could get about 250 three-inch circles out of the sheet, I wouldn't even need to reuse the filters. Not that I intend to spend the time and energy cutting up the entire sheet---I'll try one three-inch filter first and see how it goes.

Even with my more primitive two-stage French Press/doubled coffee filter method, my extracts are surprisingly clean. In early April, I extracted a batch of four cigars. The 12-hour warm water bath I typically use for pipe tobacco macerations didn't work at all for the cigars. After 12 hours, extract samples had next to no flavor. I ended up doing my longest "cook" ever---three full days with the sealed maceration jars in the water bath at 130°. The extract liquids got very dark, almost opaque, although the mixed juices are lighter and transparent.

Oh my, these cigar extracts are terrific! Full, wonderful flavor. Not just "essence of cigar"---they actually taste just like the cigars from which they were extracted. They shout, "I'm a CIGAR!"

I've had all four loaded in EVOD-style clearos for the past six weeks. I hadn't experienced any diminishing flavor or performance, so I hadn't examined the coils yet. But that can happen gradually enough to be unnoticeable. Yesterday I unscrewed the coil head from the EVOD with the darkest-colored liquid---the Rocky Patel Vintage 1990 Churchill, mixed at 22% extract---and examined the coil and wick. The two wicks---one through the coil and the so-called "flavor" wick that sits on top---were darkened where they touched the coil, and the coil itself had definite black carbon build-up, but neither the wicks nor the coil were horribly "gunked." I removed the flavor wick and dry-burned the head. Presto! Clean as a whistle again. I used organic cotton for a new flavor wick, reassembled the head, trimmed the wick, and put the clearo back together. Ahhh. Flavor and performance were about 10% improved, back to the original levels.

Keep in mind, though, that this was after six weeks of sporadic vaping. Six weeks, and no kiss-of-death gunking. I'm impressed. Even with a three-day cook, dark-colored liquids with 22% extract, and five hours of vape time on a bottom-coil clearo (not even an RBA with a micro-coil), flavor and performance remained at 90%. Wow.

Today I checked a second cigar---the Oliva Nub Cameroon. 20% mix, lighter-colored liquid, but the same results. Only moderate build-up after six weeks and five hours of vape time.

I don't know. Maybe I should just stick with what I've been doing. I mean, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. LOL.

 

[Ian444]

I guess its human nature to want to improve the end result of a rewarding hobby, and curiousity can be a strong motivator.

Bill, are these the coffee filters you've been using?

 

[FearTX]

I bought the filter funnel and flask for vanilla and coffee extracts, I was initially doing them in VG and filtering was taking forever. I went to the "filter paper balloon" method. The funnel and flask turned out to be a massive time saver for me.

What french press are you using?

 

[billherbst]

I guess its human nature to want to improve the end result of a rewarding hobby, and curiousity can be a strong motivator.

Bill, are these the coffee filters you've been using?

Ian,

The big bag of 700 filters I found in my apartment when I moved in---with about 400 left in the bag---is the same type and size as those, but some el cheapo knock-off brand called Connoisseur that says the filters were manufactured using an "oxygen cleansing" process rather than bleach (presumably to make them white). I assume they're probably the same pore size as the Melitta filters in your picture.

 

[billherbst]

I bought the filter funnel and flask for vanilla and coffee extracts, I was initially doing them in VG and filtering was taking forever. I went to the "filter paper balloon" method. The funnel and flask turned out to be a massive time saver for me.

Sounds cool. All 27 of my extractions (22 tobaccos, 3 coffees, and 2 teas) have all used varying blends of PG/VG. Given my fondness for VG---I generally don't vape any juices that are less than 50/50, and I like all-VG vapes---I might have to end up popping for the vacuum/funnel/flask system. Home extracting is so incredibly inexpensive that $80 for high-tech filtering equipment might be well worth the one-time expense.

What french press are you using?

I've got two: a 12-cup glass-and-metal Melior (from France) that I bought new in the 1970s and have carefully guarded ever since, and a small 3-cup (12 oz.) mostly plastic Bodum that I picked up in a Goodwill store for a buck about 15 years ago. I was a coffee geek long before becoming a vaping geek---I roast my own green coffee beans and have a prosumer double-boiler Expobar Brewtus E-61 espresso machine with a Baratza Vario grinder, so I haven't used either French Press for many years. When I started home-extracting a year ago, there they were, ready and waiting to be put back into service.

The Melior has a nylon filter, while the Bodum I've been using mainly (because it's small and lets me squeeze the heck out of the bulk solids to release absorbed liquid) uses a fine wire mesh filter. The plunger assemblies on both are similar and constructed in such a way that adding the 5-micron poly filter rounds will be easy. As I wrote, I don't know how well that will work, but from the description of the vacuum filter kit on eBay, I take it that the poly filter will work with that set-up.

 

[Miracles]

Do any of you guys think that an Aero Press http://www.amazon.com/Aeropress-Cof...UTF8&qid=1400369011&sr=8-1&keywords=aeropress would work for an all VG extract? Or would it work at all?

 

[Bunnykiller]

Hey people ! Im new to this part of vaping and have done some serious lurking/reading and gave it a shot... found a nice black cavendish/cherry and took approx 1 oz and steeped in 4 oz VG. Did the MW burst method and once cooled to room temp put it in the fridge for an overnite stay, in the morning did a single MW burst ( 11 secs) to bring it up to approx 120 F ( checked with thermometer) then let it set at room temp all day. When I got home from work I strained/filtered it and ended up with 2.75 oz finished product. Did a drop on the finger taste test and it was rich and very flavorful, Cherry was very distinct and tobacco was definately there ( pretty much like "dippin" the tobacco but more cherry flavor) I then proceeded to try a quick vape test in a bridgeless 510 atty/dripper, I was expecting some definate flavors since the taste test on the finger was so intense, but it was very lite on the tobacco and the cherry was non existant.... any suggestions as to how I can increase the "flavor density" for vaping?
TIA

BTW heres a pic