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Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

Discussion in 'Tanks, clearomizers and drop-in coils' started by M_DuBb716, Nov 1, 2013.

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  1. Alter

    Alter Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2013
    BC Canada
    No way could you build a coil to push 75 watts in a protank, the airflow isn't there, let alone the restricted build area. I vaped 1.2ohm 30 gauge and IMO even with a airflow adapter I was pushing it. You would heat up the surrounding metal and caramelize the juice trying to vape lower ohm coils. That was a reason I switched to kayfuns was the more versatile build area and ability to vape low ohm coils. It was the hassle fill screw that led me to find a easier to manage atty.
     
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  2. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    No, no…strained winds like those perfected on PT's will cause you no tears. :D

    Good luck,
     
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  3. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Howya Alt…

    Yep, 1.2Ω can be good. I settled in round 1.5 using Nextel and opening up everything I could ultimately opting for the Mega. Have to be in the mood these days 'cept for demo's to get the wee vapers goin'.

    :) Good luck.
     
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  4. Alter

    Alter Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2013
    BC Canada
    Morning MacTech:
    I don't come into the protank thread too often any more. All my PT's have been shelved and haven't touched them in months. They still hold a special place in my heart and always will since they set the stage for my atty rebuilding skills. Same with the Kayfuns that sit beside my protanks cause the way I wicked the kayfuns so they never leaked is applied to now how I wick my subtanks and still success with never leaking or any wicking issues. No matter what anybody says I still think protanks rock as long as your not using the factory heads but you can revamp a stock head to perform almost as good as a rebuild.
     
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  5. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Def agree with your last. Pity is that mod makers didn't sooner up the pwr on tube mods. If you're down below 1.5Ω or so it makes a diff. Then you can match the performance of a small tank with a dripper like the immortalizer say and enjoy similar density/temp performance. Enjoy switching between closed and open.

    Also it's the microcoil that made this industry. Encouraged me to quit and devote the time and research to perfecting it's performance. This whole thread and project has been about the means for new users to be able to make effective comparisons between closed and open winds. Recall when vertical Protank coils were first the topic of a long thread with many participants and the extraordinary high percent of hehhh, marginal performance or failure. Microcoils do some amazing things most don't realize. But the best of all is that with strain they're easy to make for new builders. Here, in this place, are the tools to make them optimally for the best yield.

    I've always felt that it's not hardware diversity and fortunes made on it in this industry that would save us…but user knowledge and self-reliance. An understanding of how to master or at least control the electronics and temperature. At the end of the day vaping still remains more like cooking than anything else we do.

    Best of luck Alt and all of you.

    :)

    p.s. Look at how they're all crying now about preserving open-systems…too little, too late, and perhaps now some may understand what the objective was here in this far flung corner of ECF.
     
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  6. Alter

    Alter Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2013
    BC Canada
    I can and will say that once you get a hold of a good build, even in a protank you can rival a dripper of the same ohm range any day of the week. I never got into dripping even though I do have several drippers I never use them even to sample new mixes, they are at least a couple plus years old and can't count on one hand the amount of builds I've installed in them. I even still have a good ol genny that caused me more frustration handling mesh than one can imagine. Dripping is a mess and always will be a mess that I just couldn't get past.
    Claptons are now my build of choice in our subtanks both spaced and some contact coils, they are a amazing build. Clapton came around long after I quit using both protanks and kayfuns but maybe one day I will sit down and try to stuff a clapton into a protank and give er a rip.
    Posting in this thread makes me sit back, take a moment to appreciate what the protank has done for me in my vape journey. Some hated the PT's but IMO they are the best starter atty out there if your wanting to learn.
     
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  7. ChelsB

    ChelsB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 12, 2016
    California
    I wholeheartedly agree. I still love my PTs! What's the lowest ohm you've gone with them?
     
  8. Alter

    Alter Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2013
    BC Canada
    1.2ohm with 30 gauge but the ID of the coil is small, very easy to cook the wick is your not careful. I started with 32 gauge when I first began building PT's but soon gave it up when the wire bends and distorts from regular use and rewicking, the 30 gauge is the best wire still a bit thin but a little more robust than the 32. The 28 gauge was a bit thick for the insulator so that gauge was very short lived. Wrapping wire around silica with flavor wicks to ensure it doesn't leak, then sticking a pin through the ekowool so wrapping wire was much easier. With cotton I was rewicking every other day and it was getting monotonous. I found Hemp fiber kicks the crap out of cotton so I used hemp right up until I stopped using the PT's. I did try rayon but its acted weird after the first tank and didn't perform up to standard so back to hemp but rayon in a subtank build is vape nirvana.
     
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  9. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Agreed, most predictable dependable geometry I tested. Particularly the eVod and TS3 for consistency of production (don't know why the tall tanks worked so well, perhaps good vacuum balance). This includes the Mini which was my main really on a Magneto for the longest.

    Will insist a proper t.m.c. will blow the doors off a clapton with far more density and overall vapor production. There I must differ with you Alt. I cut my teeth on making this demo comparison between them with users and they're often amazed. Less wire mass, more contact ratio, more vapor, flavor, less watts, cooler, more satisfying…less juice consumption!

    It's first all about achieving a personal perfection of oxidation method. Then…understanding you must give that greater contact/vaporization rate adequate juice and air flow. It does work and I don't ask anyone to take my word for it. On the contrary, only that they look for it. It's there for the taking with a little observation. I vaped multi wire (twisted) for 2 years alongside my work on this thread. Abandoned all for t.m.c.'s (except for testing and comparison) a year back. No point. It's all fun and I enjoy the wind alternatives. But no result I can't duplicate (or exceed) with strain and higher surface contact ratios.

    All this is not just my opinion. It's the straight up take of the many folks I've had the pleasure to work with down here in S Fla far less skeptical than me and willing to put these comparisons to work in exchange for the help quitting. I've simply let them decide usually playing devil's advocate as I vaped my multi-wire. Over time I've learned how to cut the transition time from Stage 1>3 down to a couple of months. How? Often by introducing them to multi wire early on.

    Result? Well they've ended up everywhere from toot-puff <10W to my current production level of >70W mech, ~37.5-40W VW. Can assure you of one thing though…they are all vaping at output (vaporization) temps lower than alt winds on any kind of device.

    You don't need high watt/temps to get vaporization. In fact, done right, it's just the opposite.

    That's the name of the game here.

    Good luck Alt, crew.

    :)
     
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  10. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Picked up from my Christmas post for reference here…
    Good luck all. :)
     
  11. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Lifted from the thread…Looking for any additives that cut throat irritation | Page 3 | Post #48 | E-Cigarette Forum for those still trying to sort wicking out…

    Pretty good round up of points here ID…

    Especially rich tab's, dark, sweet and complex juices. Some may require changing organic wicks daily just to maintain flavor if they don't just stop the vape altogether.

    Great observation on what often causes drying out the build, constriction. I call it getting ahead of the vape. It can happen too with too wet a wick (if you apply too much power to clear it). Better to blow some air into the atty. The increased airflow velocity will speed up or enhance vaporization.

    Also getting ahead of the vape. Think this is one of the most common problems as peep's seek cloud production and mistake this for density (actual vaporization). Up to a point, getting as much media as possible in a wind (for that coil diameter) is a good thing. So long as it's not too much flow for the heat you should be able to graduate power up to that flow. With a variable, easy. But possible too with variations in wire gauge for a given diameter. And coil length, don't forget that. More turns require and deliver more energy to the wick. The greater the mass of the coil, the more wick needed.

    Just as hard as finding the right balance of wicking for a build is learning how much flow an atty can handle. I think squonkers make that a bit easier but it's still a learning curve. The point is you really don't want to flood but you prolly want to be as close to that as possible to keep all turns wet enough. Otherwise, a wet coil with a turn over-heating and the other possibility just plain straining the battery to reach vape temp can be one of the harshest vapes there is. You'll run into it too if your batt drops to a voltage that's not enough for the build. Even regulated can push batt's this hard. If your vape's full and rich, vape on!

    Great post ID. G'luck. :)
     
  12. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    For reference purposes from the thread…3 Ecigs, 1 Ejuice :( | E-Cigarette Forum:

    Was in that same predicament when I quit Sophie. Had I not solved it, would've never made it. Bottom line is factory coils are built to a generic idea as to what makes up popular "tastes". And right now that's airy clouds and higher watts. There is no getting around it…if you want to control for a balance of density you're going to have to find it yourself. For this there is no better tool than strain winding tensioned coils. It takes seconds to wind a proper coil and you can test for your favorite temperature and density like you were at a proper stove top. Why? Because vaping is more like cooking than anything that would do. But you've got to have the proper tools. Then you can make the best of that with either a PT Mini or try to get a Subtank with the RBA. Very, very easy to install. Master that and you can dial in that kind of density at power levels you can manage on the bigger toys when you want more volume (not airy diffusion).

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Questions? I'll hook you up with a few who've accomplished it, from 15 watts to 45 and even higher but with controllable density. PM me or drop a post on the Protank thread. Glad to help.

    Good luck. :)
     
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  13. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Pithy I didn't post here…

    I agree Dave, when you find the optimal balance of power, air and juice flow for the device it's golden. When that coincides with your perceptual ideal, it's ecstasy.

    Good luck. :)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  14. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
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  15. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Posted here from the thread…New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers | Page 194 | E-Cigarette Forum…for remarks on the prevalence of extreme and unpredictable wire temp phenomena in light wire clearo's due to conventional wind asymmetry…

    And I believe you're testing (or tested) under the best of possible conditions. In my initial studies in 2013 I personally reviewed hundreds of build types including my own developing tensioned m.c.'s. Arcing on conventionally wound VV's (like OEM) would all too often prove so severe it would degrade the mass of leads. A rather shocking revelation. Something that could/did happen on PT's and other clearo's as well. If so called scientific studies of vaping do not take these common instances of exceptional variability into account they will no doubt skew the averages and maximums.

    I'm often intrigued whether researchers might purposefully go out looking for bad batches of coils (rather easy to do). It reminds me of the kind of crash analysis FAA conducted re Skully's Hudson landing of USA Flight 1549…repeat until we get the expected result.

    Good luck. :)
     
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  16. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Want to groove in that strain? Just a little reminder that we're still here.

    Good luck all. :)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  17. lil_buddy

    lil_buddy Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2017
    I've made some 28 gauge SS316L single coil builds (differing resistances and wicking material and diameters) for an aerotank to use in TC on a DNA.
    I have not been thrilled with the vape quality. Tastes weird.
     
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  18. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    You may have a higher taste sensitivity to the metal. Some do. Properly oxized Kanthal builds an alumina layer (basically ceramic) which isolates the underling metals. Ceramic is about the most neutral media we know for cooking.

    Good luck and let us know if we can give a hand. Enjoy the vape.

    :)
     
  19. lil_buddy

    lil_buddy Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2017
    I didn't notice a taste difference in my RDA between the 28ga kanthal and SS316L. In fact, I thought the SS316 tasted nominally better. Perhaps it might be a wicking issue because I think the weird taste is the flavor of the wicking material (tried with cotton and rayon). Maybe 28ga is not a good choice, but that's all I have at the moment.
    I have some 30ga SS on the way along with SS NR-R-NR @ 0.8&1.5Ω
     
  20. MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Aug 24, 2013
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    My rec build for the ST to keep the geometry as squared up as poss is posted earlier for 25 AWG KA1. For SS a comp gauge should work as res is similar. And true that, 28AWG is quite a bit light for this tank unless you're going to try parallels.


    Good luck. :)
     

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