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Hey Maz, glad you're seeing results!
On the termination concern I think you're golden. When I have problems with termination it is usually revealed by a high res or unstable reading.
The lowest res you can acheive is by having a proper build, with the exception of a (super low) reading due to a short between the coil windings and ground, or pos leg and ground somewhere.
With a proper (tight) build your coil legs should be making "initial" contact at the point of entry at the grommet for neg leg and at the very tip of the pos pin inside the grommet for the pos leg. This will give you the lowest possible res reading for the coil circuit.
If either one of the legs are making "initial" contact further into the 510 connector you will get higher res because more of your resister wire is included in the coil circuit. I would venture to say that this phenomena and coil diameter variations are the two main contributing factors in resistance variance when attempting to duplicate builds.
Erroneous or unstable res readings will occur if the "initial" point of contact changes position within the 510 connector. Like what sometimes happens with squishy silicone grommets when tightened onto a battery. When you acquire a meter you will be able to check for this condition to some extent by pressing on the pos pin with your test lead while taking res readings!
Hope this helps.
On the termination concern I think you're golden. When I have problems with termination it is usually revealed by a high res or unstable reading.
The lowest res you can acheive is by having a proper build, with the exception of a (super low) reading due to a short between the coil windings and ground, or pos leg and ground somewhere.
With a proper (tight) build your coil legs should be making "initial" contact at the point of entry at the grommet for neg leg and at the very tip of the pos pin inside the grommet for the pos leg. This will give you the lowest possible res reading for the coil circuit.
If either one of the legs are making "initial" contact further into the 510 connector you will get higher res because more of your resister wire is included in the coil circuit. I would venture to say that this phenomena and coil diameter variations are the two main contributing factors in resistance variance when attempting to duplicate builds.
Erroneous or unstable res readings will occur if the "initial" point of contact changes position within the 510 connector. Like what sometimes happens with squishy silicone grommets when tightened onto a battery. When you acquire a meter you will be able to check for this condition to some extent by pressing on the pos pin with your test lead while taking res readings!
Hope this helps.
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After counting endless numbers of leads I can attest that the nominal wire length of Protank leads is 7mm/n, 9.25mm/p. The latter varies quite a bit as typically I measured the lead to the end of cut. However, the resistance value is merely to the first point of termination which is in reality the first good contact with the hosing or pin respectively. This is problematical as the exact wire length cannot be directly measured but merely calculated for the travel length from the end of wire to first point of contact for each lead.
Further complicating this is the fact that the grommet set is grossly imprecise so that wire length back to termination may vary quite a bit for each set and only approximated in general terms.
For these reasons I chose to post charts of validated actual raw coil resistance reads as a guideline on this thread. It's just not that simple to measure and compute Protank wire length in each case.
Please also consider that typical carto-meter results may commonly vary +/-.02Ω (specs vary) against known fixed loads. I've recorded greater if somewhat infrequently.
Accordingly maz as you may have picked up my 16mm as 1.6mm and regardless your wire length calculation may be significantly understated for the above reasons. Haven't followed your recent posts but worth a look.
In my own builds using prior res results as a guide, I become suspicious of builds that fall below .05Ω of the published target. As noted per cigatron I believe recently, first be sure of the published resistance of your wire. Measure some of your own completed legs on disassembly. Derive a best observed calculation for the termination point. Set your res target accordingly.
I'm far more concerned on the low side (both deviation and variation) as I often transfer tanks to unregulated mech's. If I'm shooting for 2.0Ω and I end up with a beautiful center fire at 2.1Ω with the effect the first or second pop, hey I'm happy as a pig in … But hey smell your rig after pulsing. I'm using LV's hard rubber grommets for tight lead stability. If you smell the slightest bit of rubber then ditch the build. I'tll take you a few minutes to make another. Ain't worth a tank of juice. Likewise if your res falls significantly below a reasonable expectation. For me that's >.5Ω and I'm scratchin' my head if I can't find the hanger. LOL
Good luck all.
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Built a very nice TMC. Silicone grommet, getting a little variance. Tried the wick tuck method, i think. Not sure if I'm supposed to be tucking it under the silicone around the outside of the chimney.
9/8 29 gauge on a 1.8 mm drill blank. Ranging between 1.6-1.8 ohm depending on device.
Probably will get some spray if I don't finish the pt tonight, just based on saturation, but that's OK.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
9/8 29 gauge on a 1.8 mm drill blank. Ranging between 1.6-1.8 ohm depending on device.
Probably will get some spray if I don't finish the pt tonight, just based on saturation, but that's OK.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Sounds like you were doing fine maz. I would have expected at least about a .2Ω variation downward for your wind. Subtract the res for the difference in turn radius.
I've done several builds of Eko (relocated t.m.c.) in recent months with a low of…
29AWG, 9/8, 5/64", 1.98mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.76Ω
Not validated as it requires for me three direct hits, verified on three devices to post. My other two builds which are rare for test purposes were at 1.78Ω. These are definitely not easy builds to get right with silicone grommets.
Just for the record.
Good luck.
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Hey Brook, yes just tuck the tips of the wick up behind the chimney seal. This blocks off the upper wick slot area where the flavor wicks would have gone.
It is important, as mac stated in an earlier post, to ensure that the bottom of the wick has not been pulled up off the flange as this could allow juice to leak under the wick.
To ensure this insert a needle behind the wick and pull it back down after tucking.
The last step is to spread the cotton fibers out a bit left and right so juice can flow freely into the coil.
I find that the whole wick tuck process works better after pre-soaking (priming) the wick. Dry cotton fibers are too hard to deal with for me. Ymmv
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I'm in agreement. I always prime my wicks when I use cotton.
Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
Just got up off the floor.
I'm really eager to hear how you make out cig. I've been glancing from time to time at the REOS community as they were original adherents last Spring. Just recently started to post there. Interest waned I really believe until I started writing about my tests of this wicking material. I saw nobody writing significantly about it. I've aggressively pursued its testing as I've simply not seen anything better. And anything promising that might help folks beyond analogs and into a more rewarding vaping lifestyle I pursue with a great deal of enthusiasm, as you probably are aware. As well informing others about it.
Nextel's a rare creature. Treat it with the casual approach (shorting noodle winds) I encountered was prevalent when I began vaping and it's not that much different than any other wick. Combine it with a proper electrical wind and it's a vapor rocket or the connoisseur's kitchen. But you have to do it justice with a little technical elegance to avail yourself of its more delightful characteristics. That means optimizing for the efficiency to utilize the substantial power handling capacity and flow subtleties of this media. The basics are here for those who may see those horizons.
I'm sure you've got the right stuff cig.
Good luck.
Have a great Mem Day all!
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Still vaping on the first evod configured with the rxw wick and rxw flavor wick.
Have run almost 7ml through it so far and the flavor is still amazing. I am just beginning to detect the first signs of diminished juice flow and increased draw effort. But only very slight.
I have no doubt that it will make my target volume of 8ml between cleanings.
How it acts after cleaning is still to be seen.
I am amazed that the flavor wick has not negatively affected the draw as much as anticipated.
Happy Memorial Day....
Back to our movies.
Have run almost 7ml through it so far and the flavor is still amazing. I am just beginning to detect the first signs of diminished juice flow and increased draw effort. But only very slight.
I have no doubt that it will make my target volume of 8ml between cleanings.
How it acts after cleaning is still to be seen.
I am amazed that the flavor wick has not negatively affected the draw as much as anticipated.
Happy Memorial Day....
Back to our movies.
After counting endless numbers of leads I can attest that the nominal wire length of Protank leads is 7mm/n, 9.25mm/p. The latter varies quite a bit as typically I measured the lead to the end of cut. However, the resistance value is merely to the first point of termination which is in reality the first good contact with the hosing or pin respectively. This is problematical as the exact wire length cannot be directly measured but merely calculated for the travel length from the end of wire to first point of contact for each lead.
Further complicating this is the fact that the grommet set is grossly imprecise so that wire length back to termination may vary quite a bit for each set and only approximated in general terms.
For these reasons I chose to post charts of validated actual raw coil resistance reads as a guideline on this thread. It's just not that simple to measure and compute Protank wire length in each case.
Please also consider that typical carto-meter results may commonly vary +/-.02Ω (specs vary) against known fixed loads. I've recorded greater if somewhat infrequently.
Accordingly maz as you may have picked up my 16mm as 1.6mm and regardless your wire length calculation may be significantly understated for the above reasons. Haven't followed your recent posts but worth a look.
In my own builds using prior res results as a guide, I become suspicious of builds that fall below .05Ω of the published target. As noted per cigatron I believe recently, first be sure of the published resistance of your wire. Measure some of your own completed legs on disassembly. Derive a best observed calculation for the termination point. Set your res target accordingly.
I'm far more concerned on the low side (both deviation and variation) as I often transfer tanks to unregulated mech's. If I'm shooting for 2.0Ω and I end up with a beautiful center fire at 2.1Ω with the effect the first or second pop, hey I'm happy as a pig in … But hey smell your rig after pulsing. I'm using LV's hard rubber grommets for tight lead stability. If you smell the slightest bit of rubber then ditch the build. I'tll take you a few minutes to make another. Ain't worth a tank of juice. Likewise if your res falls significantly below a reasonable expectation. For me that's >.5Ω and I'm scratchin' my head if I can't find the hanger. LOL
Good luck all.
Mac/All, just in case you are curious the shortest "effective" length for the coil legs on a .070 (1.78mm) dia. coil is 7.97mm.
This is 2x the distance from the bottom of the wick slot to the bottom of the assembly cup plus .070 (1.78mm) as measured with some nice starrett mics.
This would assume that the coil was installed into the assembly cup on a mandrel positioned at the bottom of the wick slot.
And because electrons will always follow the path of least resistance the "effective" leg length for the kangers can range from about 8-16mm depending upon where they make contact at or in the grommet. Sucks don't it?
So what's the bottom line? A .22 ohm maximum variance in anticipated build resistance for 30 awg kanthal. A little less variance for 29 awg; a little more variance for 31.
You folks probably already knew this but it was fun to write it up anyway.
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Mac/All, just in case you are curious the shortest "effective" length for the coil legs on a .070 (1.78mm) dia. coil is 7.97mm.
This is 2x the distance from the bottom of the wick slot to the bottom of the assembly cup plus .070 (1.78mm) as measured with some nice starrett mics.
This would assume that the coil was installed into the assembly cup on a mandrel positioned at the bottom of the wick slot.
And because electrons will always follow the path of least resistance the "effective" leg length for the kangers can range from about 8-16mm depending upon where they make contact at or in the grommet. Sucks don't it?
You folks probably already knew this but it was fun to write it up anyway.
Measure a hundred and give me a median.
This time I thought I'd shoot y'all a picture so rampant images of articulated legs would not send you off the cliff of imagination.
The length cannot be identical for both to be called the "effective" versus actual overall line length. The only length that matters is to the point of termination as I explained. It's difficult to predict. Shorter on silicone which overly compresses into the assembly making leg lead length somewhat shorter (no slack build), longer on firmer grommets that may not seat all the way in.
That's why I ignore the theoretical and devised the res table of "best build" targets I post here. My entries are triple validated, at one point or another, each read on three devices. And I don't post unless they resulted in a good vape. Had no anomalies during at least a day of use. It's an example of what anyone can do with a short record of good results on their own gear, carto-meter, etc. And...if you keep track of the good vape you got.
If you use a really firm grommet like LV's, it will actually form the bottom of the wire into a perfect "Y" viewing the coil's axis, as above...if you firmly tension the set. Pull the pin and grommet and you will be left with a nicely little formed "Y" that "broken legged" articulates straight down at the point of entry at the grommet location. From that entry point downward is the precise amount for each build that must be subtracted front the overall wire length to determine operation resistance for that build (if any of you were curious).
Now if the lead to the grommet's interception point is bowed or skewed it will add to the overall wire length. That is why if you want to hit the res target within a few hundredths you need to flatten out the biomechanics and pin those leads in the same spot every time. Where? Perpendicular to the direction of exit from the coil (no lateral skew); and, as taught as possible to retain as much contact in the turn finish as possible (refrains the loose end turn). Taught, not overly tight. Just enough to reproduce the above image. This is fairly easily accomplished during the set with some mild tension from a forceps.
Is a millimeter a big deal, even for the refined vape were experiencing with our fine coils? Naaah! But, if you want to hit that res target consistently, it is. Most days, I'm a .05-Ω low I may tinker. Otherwise, I'm eager to juice. For testing precise results of wicking material and winds, that's another matter. Stuff I'm going to publish here.
Hey cig there's lot's of work to be done in this area. I need to talk to PJ about his Excel resistance program. I don't think he's using Temco as a res value source and there's no input. Steam Engine doesn't work for the KPT on turn results due to all these unaccounted for variables. Unless adapted we still need a guidepost and I realize the tables here are rudimentary. But there's only one of me to go around…and it's a Holiday.
Happy there's a fine flock of fella's around to kick in. Thanks all of you, really.
Good luck.
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Measure a hundred and give me a median.
This time I thought I'd shoot y'all a picture so rampant images of articulated legs would not send you off the cliff of imagination.
The length cannot be identical for both to be called the "effective" versus actual overall line length. The only length that matters is to the point of termination as I explained. It's difficult to predict. Shorter on silicone which overly compresses into the assembly making leg lead length somewhat shorter (no slack build), longer on firmer grommets that may not seat all the way in.
That's why I ignore the theoretical and devised the res table of "best build" targets I post here. My entries are triple validated, at one point or another, each read on three devices. And I don't post unless they resulted in a good vape. Had no anomalies during at least a day of use. It's an example of what anyone can do with a short record of good results on their own gear, carto-meter, etc. And...if you keep track of the good vape you got.
If you use a really firm grommet like LV's, it will actually form the bottom of the wire into a perfect "Y" viewing the coil's axis, as above...if you firmly tension the set. Pull the pin and grommet and you will be left with a nicely little formed "Y" that "broken legged" articulates straight down at the point of entry at the grommet location. From that entry point downward is the precise amount for each build that must be subtracted front the overall wire length to determine operation resistance for that build (if any of you were curious).
Now if the lead to the grommet's interception point is bowed or skewed it will add to the overall wire length. That is why if you want to hit the res target within a few hundredths you need to flatten out the biomechanics and pin those leads in the same spot every time. Where? Perpendicular to the direction of exit from the coil (no lateral skew); and, as taught as possible to retain as much contact in the turn finish as possible (refrains the loose end turn). Taught, not overly tight. Just enough to reproduce the above image. This is fairly easily accomplished during the set with some mild tension from a forceps.
Is a millimeter a big deal, even for the refined vape were experiencing with our fine coils? Naaah! But, if you want to hit that res target consistently, it is. Most days, I'm a .05-Ω low I may tinker. Otherwise, I'm eager to juice. For testing precise results of wicking material and winds, that's another matter. Stuff I'm going to publish here.
Hey cig there's lot's of work to be done in this area. I need to talk to PJ about his Excel resistance program. I don't think he's using Temco as a res value source and there's no input. Steam Engine doesn't work for the KPT on turn results due to all these unaccounted for variables. Unless adapted we still need a guidepost and I realize the tables here are rudimentary. But there's only one of me to go around…and it's a Holiday.
Happy there's a fine flock of fella's around to kick in. Thanks all of you, really.
Good luck.
Totally agree with your observations, experience and points. As I mentioned previously, an exact length of coil is difficult to measure an exact resistance, as terminations, wire resistance, etc. can vary. Best we can do is an approximate range. A median is just that, the average of the range. Thank you for being so eloquent and loquacious, my friend, and keep up the good work. I have so little to add these days, as I exist in a vaping cocoon, comfortable with my efforts since 2009. To say the least, been there, done that, happy with my destination, and thousands of posts about this and similar subjects. I wish good luck to all.
Great pic and explanation. Did those doglegs start out as cat claws?
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Your observations are accurate and the validation important. I understood what you said and it made perfect sense. As Bill pointed out and quite significantly because of the design some variables we contend with are moving targets.
Don't sell yourself short. Not your language, nor observations. All have value. For all of you and all of us.
I make far more mistakes than discovery. And I'm the fellow that's peein' on the electric fence all too often. We none of us have 20/20 vision and even when we do we often choose to fake it. We're amazing creatures but all too often skeptical of the truth before us. Not to mention error which is greater than all of these. And I'm a preponderance of all the above. The only feeble explanation I can offer as an excuse is that I'm tenacious in my persistence. I'm the turtle not the hare. It just takes me a bit longer. And a commitment to writing keeps me honest. So here I am. No greater skeptic than myself.
That said, I labored the longest time with your observation of shortest point to termination when I began vaping, insistent on the logic of that. I paid the price suffering for many weeks with termination issues. Primarily skew. I stubbornly resisted that matter tends to go in the direction sent. And I had to think like an electron. Eventually I realized the the shortest path was in fact the tightest least interrupted path to the point of termination.
When I was terminating to nearest point, that meant a straight up and down set for the leads. Two problems consistently arose. It's close, very close. So any deviation particularly along the axis is a significant percent of deviation. Of what? The natural diagonal rotation of the wind. If there is lateral pressure from either or both of the leads along the axis…danger Will Robinson! And aven a couple of degrees and a modicum of pull can tug at the ends of the coil and absolutely wreck it. Likewise upward pressure on the leads is more direct from torquing on of the tank or pressure through the 510 interface. These can push up end turns or introduce diagonal turn skew.
This pull or pressure at the leads I'll refer to here as a straddle of the coil. It doesn't have to be much near the coil at all to present enough energy (force) to reform the coil. How? By destroying the relationship of the turns to each other. Either elongating or skewing the orbit of the turns. Greater energy in that was originally input to create the wind in adhesion initially and even the subsequent alumina oxide fusion. Suddenly, we have no microcoil anymore. We're in a dead short. As if "the effect" didn't exist. It no longer does. "No load". "Atomizer short."
When I realized this I labored for the longest time resisting it. The simplicity of it. Struggling to find some other meaning. Even having devised a solution, turn exit termination, I went back to it. Resisted writing about it. Now that's stubborn skepticism. But as Albert pointed out, "doing the same thing over and over" doesn't trump the test of experience. Quite the opposite, it's maddening. Those of us determined to resolve dilemma submit to the obvious truth then. Some more slowly like myself.
Now interestingly, super_X_drifter did point out that sometimes you can come out of these low res dives at res check or burn in by raking the coil. Really considering this today it occurs to me the answer is fundamental. — we wound to the point of adhesion with tension. If you remove the external stress being imparted to the coil, it has the essence of the memory of itself. Raking it disrupts the disturbed present state and the coil strives to resume a created state at adhesion (if the external energy is inferior). Suddenly you may find that the res perks up towards normal res or the short is resolved. I've labored with this too since I seldom encounter a skew short these days but have to acknowledge that others do, and I see them and this solution work as well.
Mind you though, this is a stop gap. It's better if the wind didn't reflect that skew at all. But it happens. You're going to miss the lead position set every now and then. Let's deal with it.
So there it is, simple solutions made difficult by doubt. An extended termination in the direction of rotation distances the termination point reducing the potential angle of transmittal of strain to the end turn; and if precisely perpendicular as well, reinforces the end turn. A very simple concept…that stopped dead the shorts I was having when I finally just accepted it. Likewise with what seems like voodoo but isn't. Raking the coils works when res mimics a hanger or a short, some strain is skewing the coil geometry. Often then after raking just completing the burn in permanently fuses the coil.
It's not always easy for us fragile human beings to do what is easy. Often we make things out to be more complex and difficult than they need to be when we discard what's plainly staring us in the face. Headstrong, we choose to knock on every other door instead, or not care which we walk into even as it slams in our face.
Sorry to labor you all by personalizing so much of this. I just felt like sharing tonight that much of this is just as difficult for me as for many of you. Learning doesn't always come easy to any of us. Not the real thing. And I applaud all of you. We're doing a good thing here for ourselves. Help pass it on!
Good luck all.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. — A. Einstein
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Chicken scratch.
I guess I deserved that. Seriously though I have not tried terminating the legs at 45° to the coil axis. This could be why creating a claw shape from the exit turn, and in the direction of the wind, has not worked any better for me than just terminating straight down from the wind. I was still having to poke and prod the coil to center.
It appears also that the coil is overwound so that the leads are at an approx 45° angle. Seems like you mentioned this earlier in the thread but I didn't understand what you meant because I was jargon impaired.
I think I'm having an ah-hah moment.
A picture speaks a thousand words.
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I've got a Kayfun lite+ from EHPro, been looking at the 3.1 for the convenience of the fill port and adjustable 510 (mine doesn't fit flush on most MODs). If you don't mind....What kind do you have? Where'd you get it? and are you happy with it?
Yeah, it's about friggin' time right? I gotta do more.
A bit of poke and prod is unfortunately unavoidable in this dirty business cig. And I've been long-winded enough tonight for the whole dang Memorial.
You won't get the 45º exac. The pic shows an exit from the turn at about 5 O'clock. That's about as good as it gets for a tight wind. If it's taught, it just works. But even more important is the perpendicular. Too much off and you definitely skew.
But what you're talkin' about is a horse of a different color. Longitudinal skew or shift on the mandrel is natural. That's caused by uneven leg tension. It happens at the beginning of the set when you peg the neg under the grommet and you have the pos hangin'. You immediately get at least a slight shift. You're right! You have to nudge and cajole the coil towards center. And it may require you set the grommet in steps slightly tensioning as you go. Done right with light tension either tweezing in the direction of exit on either side of the grommet with your fingertips or lightly with a forceps or tweezers. It's about 4 or 5 fiddly moments 'till your pin's set in, and your coil should be about centered. Not perfect, don't matter. What matters is the exit at termination…that's what gets the res right. Nudge to center lightly after you pull the bit.
Also I'm very mindful at one critical point. That's when you insert the grommet and you peg the neg lead exit at the precise angle of turn rotation. Sometimes if that end of the coil is a tad loose I lightly tweeze some tension in and put a crisp bend in the wire folding it up along the housing towards the top. Other times if the wire is a good pointer pressing well against the housing better still. Leave it alone right there where it needs to be…so straight in with the grommet.
No two winds are exactly alike. But we finish 'em alike…with that mental image picture of the outcome in our heads. Visualization is proven very effective.
A good exercise. Forget you're going to vape the thing. Set in your mind where your leads are going to end relative to the coil. Get the mental image picture. Do the zen thing. Don't think about it. Just do it. Then examine the cup and see where things aligned. Pull out the pin and grommet if you're not happy with it. Tweeze the claw back into the leads in the direction of exit. Do it again. A few times and you start to get the idea how your hands and fingers are responding to that image to contribute in the outcome. Leave it be if it's not workin'. Sometimes I just don't wind. No tellin' my hands what to do.
It takes seconds to start over. Hours of misery when you look past it.
Good luck.
p.s. Remember I was talkin' about me. I'm slower than most of you, lol.
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Measure a hundred and give me a median.
This time I thought I'd shoot y'all a picture so rampant images of articulated legs would not send you off the cliff of imagination.
Thanks for the ack Bill, perciate that. But you're no slouch Bill. You're a very busy camper on that Tayfun thread and it's nice to see you talkin' up tension there. It's been a slow process to let folks know there's a whole 'ditional article of science to our benefit out there. Good job Bill.
And good luck.
Something that would help me tremendously is some pics of the coil before installation.
Maybe we can ask our coils to take a selfy to show off her legs!
Maybe we can ask our coils to take a selfy to show off her legs!
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