Regarding Dual Users

[DC2]

Is the "unsatisfied vaper syndrome" at work here? I can't help but think all they need is the right setup, right juice, dual coils, sub ohm, etc, and they'd stop entirely.

There are people that genuinely like smoking better than vaping.
Even when they have the perfect setup.

I'm sure it's true, even though it seems nearly impossible to believe.

But they are so much in the minority that they don't even count when you tally the numbers.
Anybody who finds the right setup will put smoking aside for vaping.

This should be considered fact for the most part.

And I say this as someone who smokes a cigarette every now and then, when the mood strikes me.
Like maybe once every month or two.

 

[patkin]

Just from my own experience: You know how some foods are called "comfort foods" and they're pretty much high carb ones? As a diabetic, I've paid a lot of attention to food behaviors/habits and those are, indeed, the foods people reach for when they're stressed. Even as a diabetic, I broke all my dietary rules and reached for the carbs at the hospital cafeteria when Hubby was a patient for comfort. I would buy them... like mashed potatoes or mac and cheese.... eat a few bites and push them aside because they tasted awful. (Only someone who lives without carbs is going to understand this... they can taste pretty bad... sugar beint the nastiest of all actually burning the tongue.) I found smokes to be the same thing. The feel both in the hand and the old, familiar, hot TH, as well as the smell, is somehow comforting. Then comes the taste! yuck (after the good taste of vaping) but I got past it the same way I tried to but failed with the potatoes/mac&cheese. Just tryin to say, for whatever reason, they find a smoke more comforting than vaping. It could be addiction to some of the chemicals in smokes that's being satisfied in the beginning but I don't think that's the main thing operating because even with months of no smokes, I still crave a smoke when major stress hits. Yeh, its a nasty but comforting thing just like "comfort foods."

 

[Ms.P]

Even after watching my sister die (age 49) from lung cancer it still took me 3 more months to quit.

I've seen "49" too many times. I'm 49. My mother was 49 when she died of lung cancer (I was 10). I learned her mother was 49 when she died of lung cancer. I started smoking when I was 13. Wasn't enough to stop me from starting, wasn't enough to make me quit.

~ Ms.P

 

[FinallyQuit]

I think it's very easy to pass judgement on others but we really don't know what drives them. I was a dual user for well over a year before I Finally Quit last July, and the cravings and biological drive for a cigarette haven't gone away yet. Addictions aren't as easy to kick as just saying "you could quit if you wanted to bad enough" else there would be no need for 12 step programs and smoking cessation support groups.

I never blame vaping, I always blame the addiction. Vaping helps, for sure, but the feeling of "something is missing" just doesn't go away. WTA helps a lot. The easiest way to quit smoking is to never start.

 

[LucentShadow]

Recently, I've met more people who are dual users (they smoke and vape).

Most who do, say that vaping has at least helped them cut back on smoking, which of course is a great thing.

But I'm curious as to why some folks (even former heavy smokers) are able to break away from analogs completely, and often very quickly, while others either are unable to do so, or prefer to do both.

Is the "unsatisfied vaper syndrome" at work here? I can't help but think all they need is the right setup, right juice, dual coils, sub ohm, etc, and they'd stop entirely. But some may really like having the "best of both worlds". They can vape when and where appropriate and smoke when they want/need to.

I had one dual user tell me that he likes vaping, but when he is drinking alcohol, he feels he must have a regular cigarette. Which would seem to indicate, at least, some level of dissatisfaction with whatever he is using.

Any thoughts or insights into this?

Thanks.

The following statements are true for me, but perhaps not for all. Until WTA e-liquids were available, e-cigs were just another nicotine replacement therapy, though e-cigs are far more effective than most due to their ability to mimic smoking.

Nicotine replacement simply does not work for many people, because they were not addicted to nicotine, or at least not as much as they were to something else in cigarettes. Just look at how many people here report that they can cut down on nicotine rather easily, as compared to their inability to cut down on smoking, once they have made the switch to e-cigs (nicotine only,) and adjusted to the lack of those other substances (other alkaloids and a multitude of other chemicals.)

There is a lot of poor information out there about nicotine. Many here reject the incorrect notions that associate it with everything bad about cigarettes, such as cancer risk, while still accepting that it is the most addictive substance in them. I believe that to be incorrect, also, as do some others here.

I'd say that most of those who 'are missing something' with e-cigs would be happier with a good WTA e-liquid. In fact, I believe that if all of the other nicotine replacement products included the minor alkaloids along with the major one (nicotine,) they would almost certainly be much more effective as well. It's almost unthinkable, how flawed the entire subject is, in my opinion. However, I can understand why some may reject the idea of adding MAOIs to smoking alternatives, due to their possibly increased dependence-forming potential.

Here is a three-part summary of some of the research that went into this subject, right here on ECF:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/dvap/642-madame-psychosis-summary-pt-1.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/dvap/643-madame-psychosis-summary-pt-2.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/dvap/644-madame-psychosis-summary-pt-3.html

There are further links in those blog posts, and other references in DVap's other blog posts.

 

[AndriaD]

OTOH, I have no intention of reducing my vaping, or nicotine level.

Same here. I keep getting all the busybody questions "when are you going to quit doing THAT?" Like THAT is some awful thing that surely I want to be free of, or something inane like that.

I've started answering "when I stop being an addict." As anyone who knows ANYTHING knows, once an addict, always an addict. I realized I was one of those many, many years ago, and I know it hasn't changed a bit, nevermind my sober status.

Plus the fact that when both of my grandmothers died, they were completely lost to the world -- one with "senile dementia" (she was 95), and the other with Alzheimers. If there's even ONE chance that nicotine can keep my marbles where they are, I will NEVER stop using nicotine. Growing old doesn't scare me too much, because it sure beats the alternative, but growing old and NOT KNOWING WHO I AM, that scares the bejeebers out of me.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

I highly prefer vaping over smoking. Yet, I do continue to dual use, and here are my reasons for smoking.

1 - Smoking moderately is very very liberating. Didn't have examples of this prior to eCigs. Now, I'm living it. If you would've told me 5, 10, 30 years ago that I could smoke cigarettes all I want, but not be addicted, I would've scratched my head and thought you have no idea how strong those cravings are. Now, I smoke without the cravings. I usually have a half or less at a time, but yesterday I had a whole ciggy for my first time in I don't know how long. Was fairly enjoyable.

2 - Like the (famous) Sottera judgment, I don't filter vaping through smoking cessation. I long for the day when vaping is able to stand on its own two feet and not having to constantly be referenced with (big) tobacco. I smoke because it really does seem like a distinct activity to me. I find it odd that politically, vapers want vaping to be seen as 'nothing like smoking' and yet some vapers see it as intrinsically tied to smoking. As if you do one, you really ought not to do the other. I say bump that, you can do both and enjoy both for what they are.

3 - In my experience, when engaging in other adult activities, a smoke serves as a better go to item than vaping. But truth is, I'll do both and predominantly puff on an eCig cause I'm now so used to it, and almost everywhere indoors I can vape without an issue.

4 - At times, smoking is easier to do. Could explain this in detail, but if you've done both and honestly, truly believe vaping is easier, then I'd disagree. I think vaping can be more fun, but not as simple.

5 - Smoking still seems more social and fun to do when hanging out with friends who smoke. I hang with other dual users. Sometimes I'll join them (outside) for a smoke. Most of the time, nowadays, I do not. I like having the option to go either way.

6 - I smoke for the flavor. This isn't top reason on my list, and closer to bottom of the list, but still is on my list. Vaping flavors are way better, but smoking has a distinct flavor that if you aren't hating on it, isn't all that bad. To me, it is like comparing soda to anything with alcohol. Soda (always) tastes better, but sometimes I get a taste for something with alcohol, and soda isn't going to cut it, even while in general it (always) tastes better.

7 - Smoking is my backup to my backups for vaping.

I'm also compelled to note that I vape around 98% of the time and smoke 2% of the time. Vaping has knocked out the cravings for smokes. I've quit cold turkey previously, and so know what it is like to be without (constant) cravings for smoking. I like that feeling, a lot. Hence the reason I put moderate smoking at top of my list. I highly prefer vaping, but am glad to have option to do either whenever I so desire.

 

[Zealous]

I can't help but think all they need is the right setup, right juice, dual coils, sub ohm, etc, and they'd stop entirely.

I had one dual user tell me that he likes vaping, but when he is drinking alcohol, he feels he must have a regular cigarette. Which would seem to indicate, at least, some level of dissatisfaction with whatever he is using.

Any thoughts or insights into this?

Thanks.

I can only speak for myself I guess but when I switched to vaping it was EASY to quit. But I did have a mental list of the reasons I wanted to quit smoking & vaping satisfied all those reasons. I think the bottom line is you have to want to quit using cigarettes in order to quit using cigarettes. Even when it comes to drinking & smoking, if one were to take the time to figure out which eliquid compliments their beverage best one could find one & be perfectly happy vaping with a drink. I have a great Irish Cream that has good TH & it's a perfect replacement for the cigarettes I would have with my coffee as well as any I'd have with a beer.

 

[solace.discord]

I started vaping with a Magma kit from Volcano 4/21/2011. I was smoking at least 2 packs a day. vaping allowed me to cut down drastically, by almost a pack a day, right off. there were many cigarettes I was not willing to give up yet, and no one, and I mean no one I know was vaping, or even had heard of it. but I live in Maine, and that happens a lot.

I vaped at home (with few cigarette exceptions) and smoked when I wasn't, unless it was better for me to be vaping, like my boyfriend's sisters' house. it was mostly a social thing, an acceptance thing, a time-out, get some "fresh" air, walk the dog, in the morning with my coffee, etc, etc..

last year, I said enough.. a few people at work were using gas station set-ups which made vaping at work socially acceptable, and I quit smoking those 14 butts a day for good. I don't like attention, so I'm glad someone else was public first- after that, I wasn't so self-conscious about it.

it was a process for me.. physical, psychological, and strong, long standing, habitual behaviors had to be altered..

I'm one year and 5 days from my quit date, and I'm just glad I got here.

eta: however anyone does it, is up to them all the way. if they smoke and vape, good for them.. harm reduction, on the path- it's hard to do for some, and don't I know it.

 

[aikanae1]

I am convinced it's not just nicotine. I had a hard time when I first started vaping; allergies, respiratory infections, etc. that put me in emergency several times. Coincidence? I don't know. I've got a long history of quitting and I tend to always get sick, but not this bad. TG for WTA. It really helped. I'm not a doctor, I don't know the biology and I'm not going to pretend by figuring it out because I can't. Quitting wrecks havoc with me, physically and dramatically. It ticks me off.

I wish there was a doctor interested enough in cigarette addiction to look past the nicotine. Why wouldn't there be more to cigarettes than just nicotine? BT has admitted they've added substances to make cigs more addictive without adding to the nicotine level.

I hate cig smoke and I have quit plenty of times before. One thing I've learned is that quitting is the easy part. It's staying quit that's the REAL challenge and that can change in a blink; a weak or stressful moment, maybe for convenience. The more confident I am that I quit for good, the more likely it is that I'll be smoking again. No one can say that I'm not motivated when I've been after this for over 35 years.

If anything, the growth of vaping proves that most smokers are motivated to quit vs. using "lack of motivation" as a rationalization for why other's fail. Vaping is the closest I've experienced to a permanent change for me and that's better than quitting cold turkey IMO.

However, I still smoke. I can feel that 2 or 3 cigs a day is a LOT better than 20 or 30 a day even if it takes me years to get to zero.

 

[AndriaD]

One thing I've learned is that quitting is the easy part. It's staying quit that's the REAL challenge and that can change in a blink; a weak or stressful moment, maybe for convenience. The more confident I am that I quit for good, the more likely it is that I'll be smoking again. No one can say that I'm not motivated when I've been after this for over 35 years.

If anything, the growth of vaping proves that most smokers are highly motivated to quit vs. using "motivation" as an excuse for crappy NRT products that fail. Vaping is the closest I've experienced to a permanent change for me and that's better than quitting cold turkey for me.

However, I still smoke. I can feel that 2 or 3 cigs a day is a LOT better than 20 or 30 a day even if it takes me years to get to zero.

Yeah, I quit every night when I went to bed, and then started back every morning when I got up. Maybe that's why I found that morning smoke so hard to ditch; it's not the quit that's a problem, it's the 'start-back.'

But what you said about it being risky to be confident... that's exactly why recovering alkies have to take it "one day at a time" -- I always tell people, I hope I've quit drinking for good, but all I can say for sure is that I won't drink TODAY -- ditto that for smoking. I know I am just one drink from being a drunk again, and just one smoke from being a smoker again; maybe my 21+ yrs sobriety helps me avoid a pitfall like "just sneaking one," I know I wouldn't be fooling my BRAIN, where the addiction lives!

And yeah you're right about motivation -- I started trying to quit smoking 30 yrs ago, when I was 23 yrs old; 3 months cold turkey and it was living hell every minute. Tried 3 more times after that, pregnancy, patch, patch again, and never could go for more than a week, or when I was pregnant, get down below 3 a day -- and the only reason I managed THAT was because at first, smoking made me nauseous. Later in the pregnancy when the nausea wasn't an issue, it started creeping back up to nearly a pack a day again. You bet I was MOTIVATED, but also despairing; I really didn't think it would ever be possible for me to actually quit, but e-cigs made it so the cigarettes just kinda fell away. Once I had something that I actually liked better, that could take smoking's place, that was all I needed to "get 'er done."

And, you're absolutely 100% right, 2 or 3 is soooooooo much better than 20 or 30, and that's exactly what my obstetrician told me when I was pregnant; thank god I had a realistic doctor who knew good progress when he saw it -- and the boy turned out just fine.

Andria

 

[Bunnykiller]

Switched to vaping to reduce ciggie costs, eventually found my self vaping more than smoking. Went from 2-2 1/2 PAD to 1-2 ciggies a day. I have 1 with my morning coffie and on a rare occasion will have one around lunch time. I prefer the flavor/taste of the vape over the ciggie for one thing, the reduced costs are an added bonus I suppose.

 

[DC2]

If there's even ONE chance that nicotine can keep my marbles where they are, I will NEVER stop using nicotine. Growing old doesn't scare me too much, because it sure beats the alternative, but growing old and NOT KNOWING WHO I AM, that scares the bejeebers out of me.

Exactly.

But the problem is that THEY are trying to MAKE us stop using nicotine, or rape us for doing so.
For no good reason other than that is their job and how they make their money.

And by THEY I mean the ANTZ who are promoting things like...
--Vaping bans
--Sales bans
--Enormous tax rates
--Enormous insurance rates
--And even denial of employment

And they do all this while they sit back drinking their freaking coffee.

And while THAT obviously pisses me off, it should piss off every vaper who understands nicotine risks and benefits.
Sadly, a large percentage of vapers themselves don't even understand.

 

[Recycled Roadkill]

I'm going with "Rape us for doing so."

 

[FireDragon1138]

I'm a dual user technically... I use tobacco in all forms, and have no intentions of quitting tobacco or nicotine (and smokeless tobacco or the occasional cigar or pipe has almost no health risks). I do like vaping, but mostly I'm using it as a way to smoke in places that don't usually allow it, or to avoid second-hand smoke. It's also going to be nice in the summer when it's too hot outside to smoke a pipe or cigar.

I actually like tobacco, including the taste (one reason I prefer vaping tobacco flavors). The cigs probably aren't so good for me, but that's a separate issue from wanting to "quit" and adopt some kind of quit or die attitude, so I'm lazy about my vaping uptake (I vape maybe 1/4 of the time). I view vaping as harm reduction, not quitting. I have Asperger's (diagnosed at age 35 after I quit) and I simply perform better with tobacco and all the alkaloids in it. I quit a few years ago and my mind went to pot gradually over a half decade. Nicotine reduces sensory overload, as well as easing the depression that is ubiquitous with Asperger's.

I think minor tobacco alkaloids are probably an important reason why a minority of people who have tried e-cigs still smoke. I know I sometimes really miss them in vaping nicquid (what I call it), esp. when stress hits

 

[AndriaD]

I'm going with "Rape us for doing so."

Yeah I don't think they'll ban something that appears to be such a money-machine; they're just strategizing by scaring us, so that later when they start gouging us, they think we'll be grateful to pay their heinous taxes, just so we can keep vaping.

We fought a revolution once about taxation without representation, and I'm ready for another.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I'm a dual user technically... I use tobacco in all forms, and have no intentions of quitting tobacco or nicotine (and smokeless tobacco or the occasional cigar or pipe has almost no health risks). I do like vaping, but mostly I'm using it as a way to smoke in places that don't usually allow it, or to avoid second-hand smoke. It's also going to be nice in the summer when it's too hot outside to smoke a pipe or cigar.

I actually like tobacco, including the taste (one reason I prefer vaping tobacco flavors). The cigs probably aren't so good for me, but that's a separate issue from wanting to "quit" and adopt some kind of quit or die attitude, so I'm lazy about my vaping uptake (I vape maybe 1/4 of the time). I view vaping as harm reduction, not quitting. I have Asperger's (diagnosed at age 35 after I quit) and I simply perform better with tobacco and all the alkaloids in it. I quit a few years ago and my mind went to pot gradually over a half decade. Nicotine reduces sensory overload, as well as easing the depression that is ubiquitous with Asperger's.

I think minor tobacco alkaloids are probably an important reason why a minority of people who have tried e-cigs still smoke. I know I sometimes really miss them in vaping nicquid (what I call it), esp. when stress hits

I have a great many emotional and psychological issues that probably predispose me to tobacco addiction, not to mention the culture into which I was born and was raised, in the '60s, and the '70s too; it really wasn't until the '80 that everybody started getting so freaking weird about smoking. But none of those issues are relevant to an asthmatic like myself; I knew I was killing myself with every cigarette I lit, and I hated myself for it, and THAT is an emotional issue in its own right.

When I quit drinking and managed to make it stick, it increased my self-esteem 100-fold. Quitting the cigarettes is doing much the same for me, and being able to respect myself for my choices means the world to me. Not to mention that I'll get to grow old with my husband ("old" isn't really that far off!), and I might even live long enough to have grandchildren -- and do it while not hacking up a lung every 5 minutes, and grossing everyone out with those unlovely noises and my ashtray smell. Yeah, it does whole universes for my self-respect.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Yeah I don't think they'll ban something that appears to be such a money-machine; they're just strategizing by scaring us, so that later when they start gouging us, they think we'll be grateful to pay their heinous taxes, just so we can keep vaping.

We fought a revolution once about taxation without representation, and I'm ready for another.

Andria

Nanny Government: You'll be pleased to know that we are not going to ban vaping. Instead, we are just going to add a sin tax that amounts to $2 per ml for your eLiquid. You're welcome. Please keep vaping!

 

[Kracker]

I think there is some sort of mental craving going on that is not related to nicotine.

I was a dual user for months before I quit smoking entirely. Near the end I would go days without a single cigarette, but I would occasionally still crave one and go ahead and light one up. Once I lit one up I would rarely smoke more than 1/4 or so and then put it back out and go find my ecig, but there was a craving that just made me want to light it up and take a few puffs.

Did I write this ? I could have, LoL. I still have the same pack I got when I got my ego's in the beginning of Feb. Every once and a while I'll go outside and light up, take a few puffs and flick it. I do take them with me when I'm riding my motorcycle along with nic. gum. A lot of times with other riders you're only stopping for 5 minutes to fill up or the bathroom. That's when I grab a Newport, take a couple pulls and flick.

 

[DC2]

I think minor tobacco alkaloids are probably an important reason why a minority of people who have tried e-cigs still smoke. I know I sometimes really miss them in vaping nicquid (what I call it), esp. when stress hits

Sounds like you might not be aware of WTA liquids.

Here is the complete story of Whole Tobacco Alkaloids (WTA) in summary form...
Whole Tobacco Alkaloids

And here is one place you can buy them...
http://www.aromaejuice.com/Whole-Tobacco-Alkaloid-WTA-Eliquids_c33.htm