Shake, Stir, Heat, Vibrate or let it sit?

[DeeDee1234]

(OK, I'll admit, I ALREADY do Reiki attunements on my juices... ;-) )

ok then, that's interesting

 

[AngusATAT]

And if you want to completely dismiss me, after posting some of the most well-thought-out and well-researched posts on this thread because of an off-hand, casually snarky (but easily documentable) snipe at the mods (who, let's be honest, sort of volunteer to wear a target on their chests when they take the job), then I consider your offer to not engage me in the future to be a compliment and a blessing.

Thank you for letting me know that you are a Moderator-worshiper, and that you enjoy living under oppressive censorship and the tyranny of self-anointed demigods so much that you will shun those who dissent and object to being treated like slaves. Not all the mods on ECF are like that, but there are more on this list than any other forum I've been on in my 20 years of being on the Internet, so the way I see it, they sort of bring it on themselves.

I like to know where other members stand, and I have no problem defining my positions. We're clear now--that's good...

Let's get something straight here. The moderators do not volunteer to endure abuse by unruly members with an axe to grind. They volunteer to help keep this forum organized, and to keep it free from spam and posts that violate our policies. If you do not like it... tough.

I was the Forum Manager for quite a while, and have personally brought on board many of the moderators and admins who have served over the last few years. I brought on Oldsoldier, who is currently the Forum Manager. They have all been a terrific bunch of people who have been invaluable in helping to keep this site from devolving into a huge pile of chaos. If you want to smack talk them, I suggest you do it elsewhere, because the next time I see it will be your last as a member. The moderators graciously give of their time to help the community, and we will not allow people to come here and disrupt the forums with snide comments about them. I seriously hope I have made this point abundantly clear, because it is the last warning you will get.

 

[StereoDreamer]

What can we do to replicate on a smaller and cheaper scale what the big boys are using? Are they doing anything besides shaking if they are indeed shaking? Where the money is are the answers. Are they doing anything but letting it set for a week or even that before it goes out the door? Be nice to tour the plants that make this stuff. I wouldn't even need a camera. It would forever be burned in my retinas.

I've talked with several juice vendors, and, well, they're not talking... ;-)

I suspect many of them mix their flavoring in BIG batches and let it sit, and only add nic and PG/VG dilutants for order fulfillment. This would explain why some flavors (and some vendors) benefit GREATLY from steeping by the end-user, and some are pretty darn good right out of the box...

 

[psycheval]

I've talked with several juice vendors, and, well, they're not talking... ;-)

I suspect many of them mix their flavoring in BIG batches and let it sit, and only add nic and PG/VG dilutants for order fulfillment. This would explain why some flavors (and some vendors) benefit GREATLY from steeping by the end-user, and some are pretty darn good right out of the box...

I haven't tried to talk to any I didn't suspect they would. I wouldn't if I was making money. I have no intention of that. I'm pretty adamant about not having someone coming to me for juice. Don't start none won't be none.
I have the same suspicions about methods as you. Some of it comes ready and some has to steep. Depends on what you get from who when. If I had to guess we are probably being spied on pretty heavily by some of the above mentioned themselves. Not everybody has the resources for R&D.

 

[StereoDreamer]

If I had to guess we are probably being spied on pretty heavily by some of the above mentioned themselves. Not everybody has the resources for R&D.

IMO, any juice vendor that DOESN'T lurk on the DIY forums is an idiot--or exceedingly well-funded from elsewhere.

Like many hobbies that become industries, the best ideas come from the end users, and the small vendors and suppliers to that hobby have neither the time or the funding to devote to R&D. If you know what works for the DIYers, and it can be scaled up for commercial application economically, you follow their lead.

And I'd imagine lurking the forums is also a very informative (and inexpensive) method of market analysis, and a good way to understand and spot new trends, desires for new flavors, and changing tastes of consumers. Unlike most of the food, liquor and tobacco industry, the e-liquid business seems to be pretty much driven by what the consumers want, NOT what the industry is shoving down their throats... ;-)

 

[psycheval]

IMO, any juice vendor that DOESN'T lurk on the DIY forums is an idiot--or exceedingly well-funded from elsewhere.

Like many hobbies that become industries, the best ideas come from the end users, and the small vendors and suppliers to that hobby have neither the time or the funding to devote to R&D. If you know what works for the DIYers, and it can be scaled up for commercial application economically, you follow their lead.

And I'd imagine lurking the forums is also a very informative (and inexpensive) method of market analysis, and a good way to understand and spot new trends, desires for new flavors, and changing tastes of consumers. Unlike most of the food, liquor and tobacco industry, the e-liquid business seems to be pretty much driven by what the consumers want, NOT what the industry is shoving down their throats... ;-)

They are here rest assured. I would be too. This is cheap R&D. That's all ok. The tobacco industry is the one that's going to try and shove it down everybodies throat. If the stuff we do at ECF can help curb or stop that.... They have money but are behind the game I believe or hope. The more ejuice makers there are out there the harder it will be on Big T.

 

[Norman Clature]

Sorry to go "off topic" or bring this back "on topic" but I'm fully "on-board" with "seed steeping." I have no idea how it works scientifically or otherwise, but I'm now a "convert" and I use 10ml of "pre-steeped" juice per 100ml new mix; which works out really well with the 4oz glass bottles I use because they hold roughly 118ml?

Thanks all,

Norman

 

[psycheval]

I have a project I'm going to do. I'll put up some pics. Have to get some clear bottles. I'll show the differences every 7 days on juice and sample it to see about flavor differences. I will or won't do to the juice about everything I currently posses the ability to do on one mix. Nothing, pre-seed, seed, vibrate, and heat. I'll just stand them up side by side and we'll all watch what happens. I'll give all the info when I do it. Be a couple weeks at most. Need to make an order in the next few days.

 

[buffaloguy]

Ive done it in 60oz bottles. I used big ones and the same tobacco recipe for all cause I knew the recipe would eventually mature for all of em one way or another.

Ill save you some time and money. Its a combo that works best for me. Heat applied in a water bath for three hours at 125° shaking every half hour or so by hand, and seeded with whatever is left in the bottle from before (maybe .5ml to 1ml left in a 60ml bottle) is the winner, period.

But feel free to test and tell me im wrong.... lol. I dont use ultrasonic. Dont feel the need. What Im doing works for me and ultrasound seems frivolous to me so I just cant spend money testing it. My juices are ready to vape right away with heating alone and no seeding. Seeding just speeds up getting it to its prime taste. A juice has its prime state.All mine come out vapable right away but that peak is what i am after.

With heat, hand shaking during heating, and seeding it reaches that in three days vs 1 to 2 weeks with heat and hand shaking and no seeding at all. Just mixing and leaving it sit, shaking once or twice a day the same recipe takes 3-4 weeks.

 

[psycheval]

But feel free to test and tell me im wrong.... lol.

No no. You decide if your wrong not me. You and me are vaping our taste buds. I am a heat convert regardless. I use it period. I just have to satisfy my curiosity and figure some people might like to see what I'm looking at. I can't do big bottles. No way. I mix 30 days ahead on my final blends. 12ml in 8-15ml bottles is 96ml. That is not the only flavor I vape so 96ml is a lot. It'll be my ADV because of how much I'm making already. It will all get vaped at 30 days. Probably all mixed together with what's left after sampling. It's just a little project. Heat will be included in all the samples by default. This will be my ADV and has Koolada in it. I don't mix Koolada without heat regardless. Heat won't even figure here because it's in all. It'll be 2 wks before I can start so some flavors can steep. I'm trying to even the field minus heat.

 

[buffaloguy]

I have done it in smaller bottles. The 60ml I use are for my fav recipes. I also do 30ml, and 15ml for ones used less often. A 60ml of a favorite will only last me three weeks. I vape alot... but my nic is lower now, between 7mg and 12mg. I did large mixes cause I wanted to see if the results would scale up for seeding larger batches. They did. It took the guesswork away for smaller sizes.

Anyways, results are the same in smaller bottles the way I do it. One thing I have found is that as long as there is a little tiny bit left of the pervious mix, seeding works as I mentioned above.

I seed more often than not, but I find i do need to wash bottles out and start fresh every so often. The idea they are getting dirty over time (whether they are or not) just bugs me. I went all clear glass dropper bottles last year and it was a teriffic investment.

 

[psycheval]

I do 60ml in 2wks. Don't have any doubts about scaling, I don't do anything without a syringe. I just don't mix up great big batches. 80ml of my ADV and 40ml of a few others go's a month. I make about 160ml total a month for 2 people. A lot doesn't get used in a month generally. I store in 30ml bottles. All I'm doing with the little project is stuff I've already done just not at once to compare against each other. If something doesn't work I personally will drop it. I already know 85% of what the result is going to look like. No use in me saying anything. A picture is worth a thousand words. I won't do anything that can't be duplicated. I like the seed results. That makes up 50% of the 85% I know already. The rest has got to wait.

 

[StereoDreamer]

I'm going to order some small (250ml) Erlenmyer flasks from American Science & Surplus for mixing juices and ultrasonic steeping, since the consensus seems to be that glass would be better in a USC than plastic bottles, because glass won't absorb the ultrasonic waves like plastic will...

BEAKER, 250ML

 

[JimzDogz]

Hi, guys I don't mean to but in on your project. But, as I'm just getting started in DIY e-liquids, I want the learn all I can from those who have gone before me. I've read this entire thread and others on the subject, there's a lot of good info on ECF. What I have learned is that there are 3 components that affect the maturation process. Those being heat, motion and pressure and by mechanically inducing one or more on fresh e-juice we reduce the time needed to reach a mature state. I really like the idea of the sonic cleaner and hot water I can see that working. But after some thought I may have found an even better low cost solution. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nostalgia-Electrics-Vintage-Collection-Hot-Dog-Roller-HDR-565/5715284, That's right a hotdog cooker. I haven't tried this yet but in theory I don't see how it won't work. By mixing 60 ml. batches in 4 oz. glass bottles, then rolling them at about 110 F all 3 factors can be accomplished. Heat and motion from the hotdog cooker and pressure from the expanding gas inside the bottles. I'm a little concerned about maybe having a bottle crack, so I'll be bringing the heat up slowly. Has anyone heard of this method being used? After some thought maybe I'll start with 2 oz. bottles. They should fit better and be a little stronger. Found a solution to the glass problem. They're even the size of hotdogs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWIN-TUBE-F...?pt=Bar_Tools_Accessories&hash=item257e6dfa62

 

[psycheval]

I'll look at any hairbrained idea you come up with. There is no telling what somebody can pull out of their hat. I would really watch the temps if I tried that cooker. Only other thing is if you think it might work try it.

Frankford Arsenal Quick-N-EZ Case Tumbler

That is the cheapest place I know to get a tumbler. I should have put that up before. So there's 2 possibly cheap mechanical options. The project I'm talking about doing will show whether the tumbler works or not. I already owned this I didn't go out and buy it just for juice. I have a 10 yr old model of the link above.

 

[JimzDogz]

I have ordered the hotdog cooker and ss flask. It will be a few days before I can actually try this out. But what the heck if it don't work out I can have great snacks for ball games and poker nite.

 

[Tepid]

I did not read the entire thread, but about half of it.

I have not tried seed steeping yet, but started using Ultrasonic Cleaner,,,, jury is still out for my juice,, but it seems ok
I need to modify my recipe a bit and try again from scratch, then I will get to the seed steep in about a month or so.

As for the beginning of this thread, you need to get down to the molecules, that is where it is all happening of course.
So, I believe heat and agitation absolutely will speed up the process of steeping.
You also have to look at it from a chef , bakers and chemist point of view when it comes to creating a juice.

Let's look at Cavitation.... Cavitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Most specifically Chemical engineering applications
to this point..... Hydrophobic chemicals are attracted underwater by cavitation as the pressure difference between the bubbles and the liquid water forces them to join together.

What this ultimately achieves is the rapid process of molecule mixing or (combining, if there is any).
This will happen naturally over time, but I don't think that speeding this process up makes any difference in flavor over time.

in other words,,, Does Speed steeping affect the flavor of juice versus letting it happen naturally?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

By agitation and a little heat, not a lot as heat will definitely affect the flavorings,,
however, if you do this prior to adding NIC could you further speed the
process by heating pg/vg and flavorings and then letting it cool? Basically cooking your juice?
I mean what would you do if you were making candy or something with these flavors (which is their original intended application).
Would it not make sense that this should also work with our juice?

I will have to test this.

Keep in mind that I am not talking about boiling PG/VG, but getting it hot, like 180 or 200 degrees? i am not sure,, just guessing at the moment.

there is some more for you crazy people to think about....


As for seed steeping,, what is happening is,,, the molecules that are already mature are intertwining with the ones that aren't. This is more of a placebo affect, I think. It's not that seed steeping makes anything steep faster, it is that the already mature juice is over powering the juvenile juice and only making it seem like it is more mature than it actually is. But, should mature faster due to the molecules that are already mixed remixing with the the new juice. I need to further research the terms I am looking for with this as I know I did not explain it completely proper. And this is theory, not fact, at this moment.

 

[dannyv45]

Sorry to go "off topic" or bring this back "on topic" but I'm fully "on-board" with "seed steeping." I have no idea how it works scientifically or otherwise, but I'm now a "convert" and I use 10ml of "pre-steeped" juice per 100ml new mix; which works out really well with the 4oz glass bottles I use because they hold roughly 118ml?

Thanks all,

Norman

How much time do you find it speeds up the process?

 

[dannyv45]

I have a project I'm going to do. I'll put up some pics. Have to get some clear bottles. I'll show the differences every 7 days on juice and sample it to see about flavor differences. I will or won't do to the juice about everything I currently posses the ability to do on one mix. Nothing, pre-seed, seed, vibrate, and heat. I'll just stand them up side by side and we'll all watch what happens. I'll give all the info when I do it. Be a couple weeks at most. Need to make an order in the next few days.

Great I look forward to your results.

 

[dannyv45]

I have ordered the hotdog cooker and ss flask. It will be a few days before I can actually try this out. But what the heck if it don't work out I can have great snacks for ball games and poker nite.

Thats a new one (Hot dog cooker) but your thinking seems sound. Keep use posted.