Shake, Stir, Heat, Vibrate or let it sit?

[dannyv45]

in other words,,, Does Speed steeping affect the flavor of juice versus letting it happen naturally?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

I have not experienced any difference in taste but one thing I do wonder about is does it shorten the shelf life?

By agitation and a little heat, not a lot as heat will definitely affect the flavorings,,
however, if you do this prior to adding NIC could you further speed the
process by heating pg/vg and flavorings and then letting it cool? Basically cooking your juice?
I mean what would you do if you were making candy or something with these flavors (which is their original intended application).
Would it not make sense that this should also work with our juice?

That is an excellent observation. I would think that would also work as you are not heating the NIC and it is pretty common knowledge that Air, Light and heat affect the shelf life of NIC.

As for seed steeping,, what is happening is,,, the molecules that are already mature are intertwining with the ones that aren't. This is more of a placebo affect, I think. It's not that seed steeping makes anything steep faster, it is that the already mature juice is over powering the juvenile juice and only making it seem like it is more mature than it actually is. But, should mature faster due to the molecules that are already mixed remixing with the the new juice. I need to further research the terms I am looking for with this as I know I did not explain it completely proper. And this is theory, not fact, at this moment.

The only flaw I can see in that is that such a small amount is needed for the seeding process (as low as 1ml for 30 has been reported) how you discribe it is the mature flavor is already there so it just seems to be maturing fast. But the amount is so small I doubt you would even notice a difference in taste. There has to be more then that going on.

 

[StereoDreamer]

I'll look at any hairbrained idea you come up with. There is no telling what somebody can pull out of their hat. I would really watch the temps if I tried that cooker. Only other thing is if you think it might work try it.

Frankford Arsenal Quick-N-EZ Case Tumbler

Actually, before I got my USC, I was seriously considering getting a vibratory tumbler. I figured I could fit piece of dense foam inside it, drill that foam with holes to fit my bottles snugly, and set them in the foam. That way, the lids would be much less likely to come off, and I could use glass bottles without having to worry about them breaking.

But ultimately I went with USC, because it seemed to be less trouble, and a lot less noise. Plus you don't have to bolt a USC to your workbench to keep it from walking off the edge of the table...

 

[psycheval]

Right you are I believe dense foam is the way to go. Take the tub off and make a table out of foam. I haven't been in a hobby shop since I started this. That was my first idea really. Tore my place up looking for a piece big enough. You still have to have some sort of top and bottom lid to compress the foam. Already made a top and bottom just have to get foam. Just slits in it should work to slide the bottles into. I haven't had breakage at all but I stuff rags and compress them with the lid. It doesn't move. My older one doesn't move either. Noise? You can't hear it over a normal TV volume. I've had and/or used one of these for better than 30yrs. If it's tight the lid doesn't move either. This can't have anything loose. If it's making more noise than the hum of the motor it's not tight enough. If it moves it's not tight enough or the pads on the bottom are gone. Not real sure it will move even without the pads. My old one might, it does make more noise and is looser than the new but it's about 20 yrs. I've been using one a very long time those are just some tricks.

 

[psycheval]

My heat process is generally heat everything that doesn't have nic in it. Me and my microwave have gotten close. I figured out how many seconds for each bottle size. Much faster than hot a water bath. I heat everything in glass only with no lids. I'm going to roughly 150 to 160 F. If it gets combined it gets heated before combining and after combining then while it is still warm I add the nic. THE LIQUID HEATS BEFORE THE GLASS DOES. So don't reach in and grab a glass bottle out of the mwave and think it's not warm enough then put it in for some more. It'll be well done. My rule is 5 seconds per 15ml glass full bottle in a 1000 watt mwave. That is my mwave not yours so yours might heat faster or slower. I adjust accordingly for more or less. Better than the coffee pot.

 

[Aheadatime]

I've asked my mom(chemical engineer) about the various steeping practices that are being argued here and she advises taking the caps off for a short period of time (small amount of oxidation, which also happens through the plastic bottles themselves naturally) and letting time do it's thing (letting the liquid sit for a week or more). She says that heat changes things and may result in a transformation of flavor that doesn't best represent the intended result, and that seed steeping works to hasten the expiration date of the liquid in question, and she can't objectively state how or why it would help the situation. She wasn't very strict in her advise though, and made it clear to me that experimentation would be needed (which we do in abundance).

 

[Hoosier]

... that experimentation would be needed...

And a sub-forum was born.

Maybe we need to consider string theory? The seed is like a tuning fork set amongst the various vibrations and expedites the harmonization of the juice.

Ohhhh, David Bowe is singing some old stuff, gotta' go...

 

[Mowgli]

seed steeping works to hasten the expiration date of the liquid in question

expiration date meh.

You did remind her that most of us are ex-smokers
That makes us mostly addicts
that makes us completely more focused on instant gratification opposed to any expiration date.

None of my juice will make it anywhere close to any expiration date.
As soon as possible is my only focus. Now would be best.

I'm not dissing your Mom at all, she has many interesting points. just sayin'

 

[Hitmetwice]

Haven't read the entire thread so forgive me here but....

Some things in life just take time, good things even more-so.

E-liquid, specifically some DIY mixes, imo need time.

Plan ahead. With juice I'm thinking 2 months out.YMMV.

 

[Mowgli]

Plan ahead. With juice I'm thinking 2 months out.YMMV.

Or tomorrow, it's up to you :shrug:

 

[dannyv45]

Plan ahead. With juice I'm thinking 2 months out.YMMV.

Hmm I have 2 empty bottles and 1 bottle 3/4 full of my ADV. Guess I'll be planing on making some juice this weekend. That's about as capable as I can be when it comes to planing ahead

 

[Aheadatime]

expiration date meh.

You did remind her that most of us are ex-smokers
That makes us mostly addicts
that makes us completely more focused on instant gratification opposed to any expiration date.

None of my juice will make it anywhere close to any expiration date.
As soon as possible is my only focus. Now would be best.

I'm not dissing your Mom at all, she has many interesting points. just sayin'

No offense taken. I told her that the expiration date thing wasn't relevant in our case, but she felt the need to warn me nonetheless that if we were to continuously seed steep the same mix, the problem would grow worse over time. Say you leave 1ml out of 30ml of your favorite "Wet Socks" eliquid for the next batch to seed. You then leave 1ml of batch2 behind, and so forth for batch 3 etc without ever washing the bottle. Eventually, you will be vaping a fraction of a milliliter of undoubtedly rotten liquid, and if you just so happen to squeeze that fraction into a dripping atty with a few drops, well then.. well..

...tbh I have no idea what would happen.

However, I made it a point to her that this particular worry was irrelevant in our case. Theoretically speaking, it makes perfect sense, but you need to keep in mind that the amount of liquid that has the potential to rot gets reduced by 50% each time you seed steep if the seed quantity and total volume of batch mixed remains constant throughout this contextual time frame I've been referencing. On top of that, most of us vape the bottle quicker than we need worry about, and wash them at least every few batches, with the latter totally making seed-steeping rot-proof assuming we wash our bottles out before the original seed has had a chance to rot(one year at least I assume).

She calls the seed a 'heel', and makes it a point that she's not saying it is entirely objectively useless, but rather that she cannot objectively classify it as useful or effective. "I'm not sure if, how, or why that would work" were her words. On a subjective level, she would advise just giving things due time, as it is the most natural, universally acceptable process that is least subject to exterior forces of influence. She even advised that I experiment by aging a few batches in tiny wine-esque wooden barrels to see if it would effect the mix's undertones.. Leaning towards not doing that one, because she literally advised I wait a minimum of 3 months. Not gonna happen.

 

[psycheval]

Pssst...
you made those barrels yet?

 

[psycheval]

She calls the seed a 'heel', and makes it a point that she's not saying it is entirely objectively useless, but rather that she cannot objectively classify it as useful or effective. "I'm not sure if, how, or why that would work" were her words.

What about her thoughts on the front end by expanding the flavors for a pre-seed? IE 6ml PG base flavor + 6ml VG = 12ml 50/50 Flavor. Should that help speed the process like old seed? Be the "Toe" maybe? No pun intended. I get the sneaking suspicion she's going to say the same thing except your not vaping 3 month old contaminated juice. Next question is if she doesn't know does she know who might? Good stuff.

 

[Tepid]

well, I am having problems with the UltraSonic steeping. It twists off my caps about 8 min into a cycle, or melts the polyseal in the cap (no heat on the UC, but just gets hot after a while anyway, you know, agitation produces heat, etc)

So, I am trying to come up with a better way.

I am going to get one of those really tiny pots and see what I can do on the stove.

Here is the deal,,,, how will the taste be any different between cooking your juice or letting it sit?
The original intent of the flavors, is Candy and whatnot, so, if candy has to be set at really high temps, depending on what kind you are making,, Hard candy is really high temps, I don't see how that will really affect the flavor of juice when we won't get even close to that during a cooking cycle. I am thinking a few minutes at around 180 or 190 should do it,, as I think psych stated earlier using a mwave.

So, I will be testing this and try to get back to you with results. it will be at least some time next week.


FYI: PG Bioling point is 187C or 368.6F
for VG

The boiling point is 290 C or 554F

Both boiling and freezing points are lowered when glycerine is diluted with water as indicated in the table below:

see this link for the chart
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/glycerine-boiling-freezing-points-d_1590.html

 

[psycheval]

Just don't cook your nic. I only do heat without nic added. From my experience it works really well on the flavors. I can literally do in 3hrs what takes 8hrs of just sitting if I heat and vibrate. 180-190F should be real good numbers from what I've seen. I don't heat my bottles enough for it to hurt you holding it in your hand. Uncomfortable maybe but you can hold it. I wouldn't go too long on the heat might flatten the flavors.

My bottles heat slightly when I vrabrate but I have had no issues with caps. Slightly by just a little over room temp. Been meaning to stick a thermometer in before and after but keep forgetting. You haven't got the polycones screwed down too far? Once they get that ring from being too tight they never seal and won't tighten. I lost a couple tightening onto hot bottles.

Good info with the links too! That's good stuff right there.

 

[buffaloguy]

The magic temp I use is 125° and it works fine. It will NOT effect flavor other than maturing your juice much faster than just letting it sit. You juice will have the exact same flavor profiles you would normally be used to. Ive tested this over... and over... and over.

What is not known with heating... and I have yet to see it tested at all is whether heat is harmful to the nic content in any way. I heat mine with nic added and I dont personally notice ANY difference whatsoever in nic strength. That being said I dont have a nic test kit to test before and after. Id be interested in seeing some difinitive answer to this idea however. So for now I make a complete juice and add heat to steep.

IMO, ultrasonic is just simply not necessary... for me. I get great results without it.