Shake, Stir, Heat, Vibrate or let it sit?
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Steeping has just as many (if not more) potential effecting conditions as ballistics.
One issue I haven't even seen discussed is Brownian Motion (knowledge of which is sort of precursor to the understanding of Le Chatelier's Principle...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion
When you are talking about multiple different kinds of molecules suspended in liquid, and how they interact, mix and establish equilibrium (which is ULTIMATELY what steeping is--the even distribution of all the different molecules throughout the entire bottle of juice), you can ultimately take it to the molecular, atomic, or even sub-atomic level. Heck, there may even be quantum principals involves here.
Schrödingers juice, anyone?...
(BTW, I am hereby announcing "trademark" on that name, and will be releasing commercial juice line which will include "Schrödingers Juice" in it....)
With regards to "seed steeping", there are essentially three schools of thought for explaining this:
1) Homopathic technology.
If you don't know how homeopathic preparations are made, then this is probably not something we have time to discuss here, but essentially it is an idea that certain compounds will impart their properties on other compounds by being shaken together, and those properties will stay with the new compound, no matter how much it is diluted. So pre-steeped juice, under this principle, will impart it's "steep-ed-ness" to a new, fresh, un-steeped juice, just by being put in contact with it, even in tiny concentrations. Most chemists and physicists think this is bunkum...
2) Quantum memory.
This is the idea that molecules, atoms, and subatomic particles take an "imprint" of the conditions they "experience", and can then communicate those "experiences" with other particles, immediately near them, or even at a distance. Chemists think this is bunkum. Physicists think this is "sacred truth". And normal people, if they believe in it, are called "occultists" or "crackpots", but if they deny it, are called "luddites", or anti-science. Thus is the mind-bending paradox of the religion of theoretical physics. If laymen believe in it, they are nuts or witches, and if they deny it, they are neanderthals...
3) Sympathetic equilibrium.
This is the idea that if you put a sample of a solution that has already established equilibrium or some sort of crystaline structure into solution of the same compounds that has NOT reached equilibrium or crystaline structure, it will cause that solution to suddenly establish the same structure. This is how they "grow" quartz crystals, and create many types of "lab-grown" synthetic gemstones. If you are a scientist, this is an established fact. If you are a dealer in gemstones, it is considered to produce a product that has the same value as a counterfeit velvet Elvis painting... ;-)
So, ultimately, when we get down to the serious science of "steeping", the fact remains that even the most scientific sub-atomic theories of how and why it works rely on blind faith and a belief in principals that are only provable through self-contradictory mathematical gymnastics, and are only observable by people who actually believe that their cryptographic sigilization represent anything real.
Use the method that works for you.
Because THAT approach is JUST as scientific as the stuff they are doing at CERN in the Large Hadron Collider... ;-)
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Humm… So if I have Schrödingers Juice it would mean that If I measured how Fast I vaped it then I Couldn't know how much a just Vaped.
LOL
Some ECF Members believe this is “bunkum” also.
Do we Really need to go Below the Plank Scale to find what makes and e-Liquid “Steep”. Don’t you think our answer could be found at a Large, Newtonian Applicable Scale?
Interesting… Does this Phenomena apply also Matter in a Non-Solid State?
Science, to me, is something that may be Derived thru Mathematics but it Must be Verifiable thru Experimentation/Observation. If something Can Not be verified thru Experimentation/Observation, than it is Just Theory.
What is Being/Been done at the LHC is the Bleeding Edge of when Mathematical Conjectures are either shown to be a Quantified Representation of Reality. Or just some very, Very Pretty Math.
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It's kinda like cloning (in a way) It also seems this applies only to certain flavors. The reaction of one flavor depends on what other flavor(s)or ingredient(s) is added to it. More to the mix enhances the possibility's beyond my thinking range. But seems it could be done on a spreadsheet. 
Yes, but you could never know the exact quantity of juice you had AND it's exact location in time and space at the same time. Either, or... ;-)
And some ECF members think that Moderators are some form of deity too, but that doesn't make their belief legitimate, even if said beings believe it about themselves, and attempt to exercise powers along those lines... ;-)
Individual belief or disbelief in a phenomenon has no bearing on it's "real-ness". It is the verifiable existence of a phenomenon that defines it's "real-ness", regardless of what some people think. Many people "believe" that politicians have souls too, after all...
We don't NEED to examine every physical, macro-phenomenon on the sub-atomic level to understand it, but to deny that quantum phenomenon have no effect on the macro world is simply absurd. One of the foundational concepts of both Fractal Mathematics and Quantum Physics is that infinitesimal changes can propagate into massively observable phenomenon. So although we needn't understand steeping on the quantum level to investigate it, understand it (on the macro level) or even practice it, the fact remains that the more you know about something, the more you know about it...
Yes, but it is either very rare, or not fully understood and little has been studied about it.
Modern physics is, by and large, a religion, not a science. It is fundamentally based on assumptive "realities" that are not physically verifiable, nearly impossible to replicate, and are generally held to be true based on the pronouncements of a self-anointed group of Priests and Prophets.
What is being done at the LHC is primarily a big scam by the ultra-rich to keep real scientists distracted from work that will actually aid the progress of humanity like curing cancer, growing healthy food for everyone cheaply, and producing cheap, clean energy that can be easily distributed to everyone. The LHC (and projects like it) is like the busy work that grade school teachers give to their "gifted" kids so they don't disrupt the class with too many questions...
Of course, that is if you actually believe that most of the people working on the LHC are genuinely interested in furthering science and improving the human condition.
There are those who believe that the folks working on the LHC are in fact, fully aware of the fact that they may well destroy the entire planet with their shenanigans, and are actually TRYING to do just that, sort of like when the DOD tried to ignite portions of the Stratosphere over the USSR in the 1950s with nuclear devices, just to see if they could--with total disregard for the welfare of the planet...
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And those of us who are "believers" in "Ultra Sonic Cleaner Accelerated Steeping" (USCAS) can easily and confidently point toward Brownian Motion and the Le Chatelier Principal to provide iron-clad proof of not only HOW it works, but WHY as well.
The micro-agitation, high-frequency vibration, and molecular excitation caused by ultrasonic sound waves in fluids obviously speeds up the equilibrium-reaching state of these complex solutions we call "e-liquid". This is undeniable.
What IS up for debate, however, is whether this process creates (or lacks) OTHER changes in juice that we see in "just let it sit" steeping (JLISS). Obviously, oxidative flavor changes are minimized, because of the accelerated schedule (2-4 hours for USCAS, vs 2-6 weeks for "just let it sit" steeping), but it is entirely possible that USCAS could cause other--completely different--flavor changes to occur, both positive and negative, compared to JLISS.
We could be looking at partial breaks in molecular chains from ultrasonic stimulation, which would change the flavor of any given molecule. We could be looking at re-combination or formation of NEW molecules which would ALSO create new flavor components. We could, in fact, even be looking at changes on the quantum level of certain individual atoms (and therefore any molecule they are in) and there is almost NOTHING known about quantum-state effect on flavoring compounds. We're talking bout pretty heady stuff here, down to the sub-atomic level, and how those changes effect the bio-electric systems in humans for sensing flavor and aroma.
It is even within the realm of possibility that flavors could be created through different high-tech steeping methods (USCAS, or some future, unforseen technology) that create flavor components that are so alien to humans that they taste different to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who vapes them, or even for each individual depending on other external or internal physiological, geo-magnetic, or even astrophysical phenomenon... Really...
The only way we're going to really suss this out is to have massively-widespread experimentation going on, among people who make juice, and they re going to need to document their process and results, and be meticulous in their formulations and mixing of their juice batches for consistency before steeping begins.
Because it's a pretty solid bet that CERN or MIT or CalTech aren't going to take this project up any time soon, unless Lorillard or BT or RJR tosses a few million their way to test juice steeping and mixing technologies...
Just sayin'... ;-)
The micro-agitation, high-frequency vibration, and molecular excitation caused by ultrasonic sound waves in fluids obviously speeds up the equilibrium-reaching state of these complex solutions we call "e-liquid". This is undeniable.
What IS up for debate, however, is whether this process creates (or lacks) OTHER changes in juice that we see in "just let it sit" steeping (JLISS). Obviously, oxidative flavor changes are minimized, because of the accelerated schedule (2-4 hours for USCAS, vs 2-6 weeks for "just let it sit" steeping), but it is entirely possible that USCAS could cause other--completely different--flavor changes to occur, both positive and negative, compared to JLISS.
We could be looking at partial breaks in molecular chains from ultrasonic stimulation, which would change the flavor of any given molecule. We could be looking at re-combination or formation of NEW molecules which would ALSO create new flavor components. We could, in fact, even be looking at changes on the quantum level of certain individual atoms (and therefore any molecule they are in) and there is almost NOTHING known about quantum-state effect on flavoring compounds. We're talking bout pretty heady stuff here, down to the sub-atomic level, and how those changes effect the bio-electric systems in humans for sensing flavor and aroma.
It is even within the realm of possibility that flavors could be created through different high-tech steeping methods (USCAS, or some future, unforseen technology) that create flavor components that are so alien to humans that they taste different to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who vapes them, or even for each individual depending on other external or internal physiological, geo-magnetic, or even astrophysical phenomenon... Really...
The only way we're going to really suss this out is to have massively-widespread experimentation going on, among people who make juice, and they re going to need to document their process and results, and be meticulous in their formulations and mixing of their juice batches for consistency before steeping begins.
Because it's a pretty solid bet that CERN or MIT or CalTech aren't going to take this project up any time soon, unless Lorillard or BT or RJR tosses a few million their way to test juice steeping and mixing technologies...
Just sayin'... ;-)
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You two guys even make my head hurt.
Good stuff. Gives me more to look at. Making my head hurt at the minute but in a day or two I'll focus. I think that part of where this thread is going is too look at some of these "myths" that aren't supposed to work but do. It just makes it easier for some (me included) to decide how to develop their process by information available to them. Conclusions can be drawn from employing different methods. By the individual doing them. Most of the folks looking at this thread are going to be pretty good at developing their opinions based on their own observations.
I can't vape fast enough to keep up with what I want to try next. I've already got several batches busted up in 15ml bottles in different states with or without different things done to them. I do seem to enjoy it.
The idea is to get the info out if it's wanted. It is at that it appears.
Good stuff. Gives me more to look at. Making my head hurt at the minute but in a day or two I'll focus. I think that part of where this thread is going is too look at some of these "myths" that aren't supposed to work but do. It just makes it easier for some (me included) to decide how to develop their process by information available to them. Conclusions can be drawn from employing different methods. By the individual doing them. Most of the folks looking at this thread are going to be pretty good at developing their opinions based on their own observations.
I can't vape fast enough to keep up with what I want to try next. I've already got several batches busted up in 15ml bottles in different states with or without different things done to them. I do seem to enjoy it.
The idea is to get the info out if it's wanted. It is at that it appears.
I'm with you on the shaking/vibrating. I'm not doing ultrasonic it's motion but it's fast. Far as I'm concerned there is no question of it's results. But that's my conclusion. I'm just waiting on somebody to do it and say that it isn't better.
Several folks agree this needs to be looked at because nobody else is going to do it. Your in the right spot.
I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you... ;-)
Dude, I'll wear mistletoe on my head, dress in a shamanic bear costume and perform Reiki attunements on my juice if it will make it taste better. I don't care how weird someone thinks a process is, if it's clean, sanitary, safe, reproducible and makes my juice taste better, I'm game to try it. ;-)
(OK, I'll admit, I ALREADY do Reiki attunements on my juices... ;-) )
Remember, some of the greatest advancements in science came from people looking into things that "weren't supposed to happen"...
And just for the record, I think my Ultrasonic Cleaner was the best investment I've ever made when it comes to my DIY equipment. I'm a believer, 100%. If I could just figure out a way to make that bugger run constantly for 3-4 hours without having to re-set it every 8 minutes, and it could do so QUIETLY, I'd be in DIY heaven. (I may have to build an "acoustic cabinet" for it, so I don't have to listen to that ridiculous buzzzzz for 4 hours every time I make juice...)
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That's why I'm messing with it man. If it'll work I'm all about trying. Inferrred by the number of 15ml bottles I can see +/- 30. Your in the right spot!
If you want to use this thread as your Personal Platform to Criticize the Mods than I will not Reply to You.
It is Bad Enough when a Person Intentionally Derails a Thread. It is Worse when they do it by taking Pot-Shots at the Admins/Mods of the Forum they are posting to.
Whatever prompted your Dislike for a Mod/Mods didn't happen in this Thread.
So leave it where you Found it and Get Over It.
And if you want to completely dismiss me, after posting some of the most well-thought-out and well-researched posts on this thread because of an off-hand, casually snarky (but easily documentable) snipe at the mods (who, let's be honest, sort of volunteer to wear a target on their chests when they take the job), then I consider your offer to not engage me in the future to be a compliment and a blessing.
Thank you for letting me know that you are a Moderator-worshiper, and that you enjoy living under oppressive censorship and the tyranny of self-anointed demigods so much that you will shun those who dissent and object to being treated like slaves. Not all the mods on ECF are like that, but there are more on this list than any other forum I've been on in my 20 years of being on the Internet, so the way I see it, they sort of bring it on themselves.
I like to know where other members stand, and I have no problem defining my positions. We're clear now--that's good...
Wow...I am almost speechless.
Staff here volunteer for the love of ECF and what it stands for and let me tell you, it's no easy task with 134,000 members to keep it Family Safe and Work Safe when you are about the only forum that is set up this way.
ECF is a private forum, freedom of speech does not apply here per the rules you agreed to when you joined :
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html
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Topic is Shake, Stir, Heat, Vibrate or let it sit ?
I'm with most of the comments here. If it works then I'm sticking with it. But on the other hand if someone wants to know why it works or don't work I can not knock someone for looking for the answers. You have every right to research and present your theories and I for one don't understand most of it but do find what I do understand very interesting. So as far as I'm concerned I give you a big "Job well done and carry on".
As far as off hand remarks and sarcastic retorts it really has no place in a serious well meaning topic. Making a point in a diplomatic manor yealds far better results.
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Apparently, the idea of using ultrasonic devices to mix liquid solutions has been around for a while, and we're just now finding out about it in the e-cig world...
450W 0 3 300ml Ultrasonic Homogenizer Solutions Processor Disruptor Mixer | eBay
Sonics & Materials, Inc. - Ultrasonic Liquid Processing, Ultrasonic Technology, Ultrasonic Plastics Assembly, Ultrasonic Plastics Welding, Ultrasonic Food Cutting
Ultrasonic Dispersing and Deagglomeration
But as is the case, these lab-grade ultrasonic mixers are FAR out of the reach of most DIY folks. We're talking THOUSANDS of dollars for small units, up to TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars for units that can process liquids in bulk.
But it's interesting to see what the "big boys" are doing with this tech, and maybe we can glean some useful techniques and processes from their industrial, chemical and medical industry applications...
450W 0 3 300ml Ultrasonic Homogenizer Solutions Processor Disruptor Mixer | eBay
Sonics & Materials, Inc. - Ultrasonic Liquid Processing, Ultrasonic Technology, Ultrasonic Plastics Assembly, Ultrasonic Plastics Welding, Ultrasonic Food Cutting
Ultrasonic Dispersing and Deagglomeration
But as is the case, these lab-grade ultrasonic mixers are FAR out of the reach of most DIY folks. We're talking THOUSANDS of dollars for small units, up to TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars for units that can process liquids in bulk.
But it's interesting to see what the "big boys" are doing with this tech, and maybe we can glean some useful techniques and processes from their industrial, chemical and medical industry applications...
What can we do to replicate on a smaller and cheaper scale what the big boys are using? Are they doing anything besides shaking if they are indeed shaking? Where the money is are the answers. Are they doing anything but letting it set for a week or even that before it goes out the door? Be nice to tour the plants that make this stuff. I wouldn't even need a camera. It would forever be burned in my retinas.
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