Shut Down by HC?

[1kshooter]

I am sorry for getting all pissy but I don't like anyone trying to take my rightto...live away from me ...23 years my GOV had no problem at all selling me cigs and killing myself and everyone around me ..oh and making a bundle off health care in the process!!!
but I am a bad guy when i can get off the cigs without one dime spent on there bull.... patches, gums and pills...humm nice!!!!

 

[mekks]

I do believe the poster asked for businesses that shut down completely or partially shut down due to problems with customs or hc with regards to nic juice. Not requested who currently sold nic juice(like that is so hard to find..lol). It was suggested by another poster they contact vendors directly.

On another note seriously when did the Canada forums start to become such a burn fest?

Might do some good to start reading the legislation news forum topics, as HC tends to follow the FDA trend.... just saying.

 

[Projectguy]

What's amazing to me is how anti vaping Canada is... Well it's not that amazing considering the mark up on cigarettes but anyway... I remember when I glorified Canada because of how liberal their attitude was towardsxxxxxx, flash forward to today and its just really all surprising. By the way I hear vaping is illegal in Bangkok but I can still bar fine a girl for 500 Baht in Pattaya...

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Health Canada is just parroting the FDA

 

[rachelcoffe]

Hey folks. Wow...we went out to buy dinner, & came back to 3 page. Wasn't expecting that, lol.

OK well anyway, foreseeing that you would all want to know what HC is up to...I spoke with the vendor in question earlier this evening, & asked their permission to share what HC had recently done to them. They said it was fine, so long as I didn't name the vendor. So here's what happened.

They recently had a $6500 hardware order coming in from Hong Kong. Like this was in June 2012. Entirely hardware, not a drop of any kind of liquid; just some no-nic starter kits, like eGo kits etc - and a ton of empty clearomizers. Basically batteries, metal, and plastic. The order was going through Customs as usual. A week went by after the tracking number showed that Canadian Customs had ahold of it. So after a week has passed, the vendor contacted them (it was a Monday) to ask about the status of the package. Customs (i.e. the CBSA) had something new to say. They said that HC had recently given them a new directive, telling them that all e-cig products - including these - are "illegal to import into Canada."

Yeah.

The statement was obviously incorrect - these products are perfectly legal to import into Canada, as well as sell & use in Canada - and there's not a law in existence that says otherwise. The vendor spent all day on the phone & in email, getting nowhere. Same thing the next day. By Wednesday, it got even better: the vendor was refused the option to even have the parcel sent back to Hong Kong! They were told that the entire $6500 order of liquidless starter kits & empty clearomizers would be destroyed, end of story.

The vendor was in tears - and can you blame them?

I think that's all I need to share about the specifics of that case at the moment. The implications to Canadian vendors are obvious: HC is ignoring existing law, making up imaginary law, and killing small businesses in the process. Supply is going to dry up daaaaaamned fast if this is truly a new policy that HC and the CBSA intend to enforce on a large scale. It's a completely illegal, unlawful policy - but yeah. I sincerely hope this vendor's awful situation was a one-off - but the point is we don't know. What we do know is what this vendor was told, by Customs: that HC had given them a new directive which states that all e-cig products, hardware, anything & everything - are illegal to import into Canada. And we know that they didn't even allow this one $6500 order to be sent back.

Of course, we also know that plenty of stores are selling disposable e-cigs & relatively crummy rechargables. So it appears that HC & the CBSA are at best, not being consistent. They're apparently targeting our vendors, the 'real deal' vape vendors. Whether this is just the one vendor, or whether it'll spread to more, only time will tell. But given what was said to the one...it doesn't look good.

---​

I'm not worried about my personal ability to vape being threatened yet; I have some subtle sources in place. But I'm very worried about what this could possibly mean for widespread, convenient, Canadian-soil availability of vape-stuff. If this is what it looks like...then this is war!

I don't believe in fearmongering, Chelly. But I do believe in vapers standing up for their rights - which means standing up for vendors' rights as well. These products are legal - they're not illegal - and it should deeply offend every vaper here that HC & the CBSA have done what they've done. To say nothing of what they may do next.

---​

To answer the rest of the posts - in case it isn't clear, I'm a vaper. And I'm not asking for secret info folks, lol! Just info that may have escaped my memory, Google/ECF searches, or notice at the time. Asking if anyone can recall any Canadian vendors who were harrassed by HC & as a result, stopped selling nic, or went out business. I can recall several such vendors that the above happened to, and I've given those names & dates to my friend already. My friend works for ECTA, btw...and the info is for a summary annex to the letter. So yeah, there's no mystery here.

On another note seriously when did the Canada forums start to become such a burn fest?

True, mekks hun. There's an unfortunate reason that I come in here less & less, and you just nailed it. Anyway, thanks for your sweet post.

That's all for now folks. Happy vaping & keep on vaping proud!

 

[mekks]

Thanks for updating with that info, sorry to hear of their bad luck and I sure hope its a one off and not a new approach by HC. That would suck seeing tomorrow is my 6 month milestone, I know I'm in for the long haul

 

[rachelcoffe]

Congrats on six months, mekks!!

And you're very welcome.

 

[mekks]

Congrats on six months, mekks!!

And you're very welcome.

Thank you

 

[SloHand]

Okay, I'm going to start a poop storm here but ......

what if there is one vendor who may have influence with CBSA and/or HC that is influencing decisions about the delivery of foreign shipments into Canada to try and have an upper hand in market dominance? What evidence will your phantom vendor have that his/her $6500 shipment will actually be destroyed? Will it be re-sold to us by some CBSA or H/C employee seeing an opportunity?

I read too much fiction

 

[Oriana871]

Okay, I'm going to start a poop storm here but ......

what if there is one vendor who may have influence with CBSA and/or HC that is influencing decisions about the delivery of foreign shipments into Canada to try and have an upper hand in market dominance? What evidence will your phantom vendor have that his/her $6500 shipment will actually be destroyed? Will it be re-sold to us by some CBSA or H/C employee seeing an opportunity?

I read too much fiction

Yeah, you do.

I don't think this has reached conspiracy levels. Not from the vendors at any rate. I think the vendors should take a really easy way out. Ship to an address that HC isn't familiar with. If they know the business name and address, then they'll attack.

Order in smaller quantities. Pay extra for the shipping, but avoid losing everything.

Ship smaller quantities to different addresses.

Etc.

Recently I had the option to pay with a credit card or Paypal... nuff said.

 

[albertbert]

Will juicy clear be in your letter? They got "shut down" twice, im sure they could add something to it.

 

[ChellyNelly]

I don't think it's paranoid, at all. I've seen and heard about some pretty nasty and underhanded tactics from vendors and vapers, trying to sabotage other vendors and what not. I don't think there's a conspiracy, but some of these folks can be pretty mean and exacting, I've seen it, unfortunately.

"Actually folks, HC has recently begun to unlawfully overstep its bounds with Canadian vendors...in a never-before-seen & hardcore way. I'm sorry that I'm not at liberty to go into detail at the moment, as the details have been revealed to me in strict confidence...but trust me when I say it's bad. It's bad enough that for the first time in 2 years, I'm stockpiling cartos." I hate to say it but that is fear mongering in my eyes. You revealed what you were talking about and while CBSA might be singing a different tune, this isn't the first time a vendor has lost a shipment (it sucks, yes). I just feel that saying what you did was an exaggeration of the situation and that type of thing causes people undue fear. This has happened before, it is not cause to freak out or stockpile. Maybe you are just very paranoid yourself, or maybe you are trying to scare people. I don't know, that's just how it looks from my perspective.
I totally agree with you about the vendors, Oriana, but it would be a lot of extra work for them to go through. That's the type of stuff I meant when I said vendors dedicated to their customer base would go further underground, if need be. I'm not worried about my suppliers running away with their tails tucked between their legs. I believe with every iota of my being that the vendors I support will continue to provide me with products regardless of what HC threatens them with, or how many shipments they seize. I know that because they're vapers first, and want to provide to the community. Their goal is not profit-driven.

Anyway, we're way off topic now. I doubt that there's anyone you missed though, rachel . If I know anything about you it is that you are very thorough in your research I have a lot of respect for you, we just seem to disagree on fundamentals lol

 

[WolfeReign]

On another note seriously when did the Canada forums start to become such a burn fest?

Hey mekks, ltnt....congrats on the vapersary, and you missed it a few moths back one of the Mod's with a great sense of humor called this the Cannibal area lol

Now with all jokes aside, reading just a few posts in on the first page i am reminded of the story between the Grasshopper and the ant.....the Grasshopper continued to dance, sing, play, goof off day and night while the ant worked and gathered continuously non stop.

When the winter came all of a sudden and no warning, the Grasshopper was there in the snow, freezing, for he had no proper shelter and starving as he had no food saved to eat. So swallowing his pride he went to the ants house.

Ant let him in, and shared what he had gathered and stored up through the winter....

-----------------------------------------
Or another other one
-----------------------------------------

The L.A bomb squad now wear signs on their backs that says If you see me running, try to keep up

In the wee hours without coffee, this is all making sense in my head to say: if someone in the know is giving a heads up, i for one want to listen and want to know just how soon i should start to collect for the "winter"

 

[fuzzione]

Rachel, let's assume you get exactly what you're after; other examples of vendors unfairly targetted by HC to include in your letter. Is it not reasonable to expect that HC will either disregard the contents of your letter or simply disagree with it and advise they're proceeding as they see fit?

What would the next move be to get HC to change their position?

 

[recidivus]

Sorry for the randomness in thought, but:

HC is not unlawfully overstepping their bounds.

Persons importing, advertising or selling electronic cigarette products in Canada must stop doing so immediately. Health Canada is providing information to interested stakeholders on how to apply for the appropriate market authorizations and establishment licences

As you can see, there is no specific wording with relation to nic+ juice, but a blanket "Electronic cigarette products". HC can say what is importable and they decided ecigs and juice aren't allowed. Sure there's shops and vendors and import isn't much of a problem, but they still made that decision and you can expect more seizures at customs.

I would imagine the ones you're seeing in stores have gone through the hoops to show nic- actually has no nicotine and have gotten market authorization, they all are also selling tobacco so it's probably not much of a step from there. That's what's really important here, nothing is "illegal", but only banned without authorization.

Many suppliers have had various shipments held at customs, I remember glancing at a site (this one? not sure, was a glance and a memory now) that someone had many many 1000$ worth of hardware held at the customs for 6 months.

The disposables in shops are selling for between 9-13$ here, I am guessing a large chunk of that is coming from Tobacco Tax.

The decision to ban was based on 2009 tech/juice. Things have improved dramatically since then (heck, new hardware is out almost daily it feels). I would expect them to look at newer data, see an opportunity to tax them to high hell, and roll out some new "Vaping is bad addictive m'kay? Now drink your HCF cerealsugarmilkstew and be productive" campaign.

We, citizens, will not make HC budge until they have completely figured out taxation so the continuous income from the populations slow suicide doesn't stop (11 billion/year has to come from somewhere). In fact, I am of the opinion that this is exactly what they are doing now.

 

[VapoX]

On another note seriously when did the Canada forums start to become such a burn fest?

I believe it started the day they created the Canadian forum. ...... meh, keeps things interesting

 

[Oriana871]

Speaking of forums, ECF is wide open to any investigators, cops, HC, etc. If they really want to crack down, they have a wealth of information here to help them along.

 

[WolfeReign]

recidivus The first part of your quote is exactly the same conversation i sat down and had a discussion with a vendor over (which stemmed from a article of Rachel's. I have the "raw" file of that interview still where me and the local vendor locked horns over this who topic, though i think he was anti ETCA while i was pro not sure......anyway here is my speculation with HC from going through years and years of reports with them.

HC is trying to trigger a ban on e-cigarettes, (with possibility--again my speculation) there will be a ruling that they would be illegal to own/operate. After visiting a Tobacco processing plant and learning the actual cost to make a carton lets say, then hearing in the revenue reports that HC is supported literally off the cost of sold cigarettes one can see why they are doing what they are. Nicaderm (lets say) is the price they are as they have entered contracts to pay HC the same as Tobacco Companies. I believe it was mid nineties when HC came out saying that cigarettes are so high as it was "smokers helping smokers" for the medical help needed and did not want to increase the tax of any single resident of Canada for this.

With E-cigarettes where is their assured revenue? for every ten dollars they get, they *maybe* inject fifty cents into a weak and feeble plus failing health care system (yes i am calling it as i see it).

So if E-cigarette users + vendors alike across Canada were to enter a agreement with HC stating: PV's would not start at a cost of $100.00 where HC would get a $40 cut. Juice would now be $20 and HC gets $9 cut, then you want to see how fast they turn around and proudly say that it is all legit and legal and no more harassment? This harassment on all levels as it is right now is there way of trying to jump start that agreement

Money talks, and because vaping is wiser in choices for doing VS cigarette's, and due to the fact of low cost vs greater quantity there is nothing in the way of large amounts of tax's or kick backs to the government., and this is where the headaches are happening

 

[Dusty_D]

Please stay on topic, and stop the bashing.

 

[keeper]

i lol'd.

but yeah, fear of not being able to vape anymore is strong.

 

[Eileithia]

Unfortunately with government agencies like HC money talks. The fact that cigarettes are still approved for sale, as well as drugs like Chantix still being on the market after making people commit suicide tells you exactly who will and won't be approved. If they really wanted to stop Cigarettes from being sold they would have upped the age restriction by 1 year every year for the next 50-60 years until they could officially make them illegal for ownership and use. that will never happen becuse the tax dollars they earn on these sales alone keep them in business. Unfortunately, I don't think any e-cig manufacturer has the dollars to fight this the only way it can seem to be won.

HC is not interested in our health, they are interested in keeping the money train flowing. I could see them strictly enforcing an age restriction on the product (nic or not, software and hardware) but to outright deny importation of the product to vendors and consumers based on 4-5 year old reports (that still had less contaminents and caused less harm than cigarettes) is just F(*@%(*& STUPID.

Until we have a billion dollar industry behind us to fund the "research and approval" process, this is the crap we have to face by our ignorant government. They don't give two .....$ about the consumer. If they're really sooo stuck on the nicotine = bad part, then they should stop the growing of tobacco on canadian soil, and hell tomatoes for that matter. If they tried to make the "ownership and use" of cigarettes illegal there would be such a huge uproar that I think our government would collapse.