Simple and Specific - DIY Liquid

[cmalcheski]

I spent literally hours scouring the web, trying get a simple listing of how many ml of this or that ingredient to add to a DIY mix. Yes, everybody likes things different but there has to be some starting point and some amount that is simply too much. I couldn't find it. No matter where I looked, it was all jargon and lingo, people role playing as "pros," and the most basic info was just not there to be had, without spending 16 lifetimes searching through all the kaka pervading the entire internet.

So here is what I came up with; if it helps even one person, then it was worth posting.

I live in a rural town - Thomaston, GA - where they just had a new tractor supply store open not three months ago. Having seen reference to it before (on this forum, actually), I waltzed in and bought a full gallon of propylene glycol for $22.45 after tax. I then bought a $3.88 bottle of "glycerin" from WalMart (I prefer "glyerine" but the label has no "e"). I had a bottle of nicotine that I had ordered online, before I figured out how terribly people are getting ripped off by ordering liquid that way.

This is an 80/20 pg/vg mix - 80% (4ml) PG (propylene glycol); 20% (1ml) Vg (WalMart glycerin).

I also bought a syringe online. It is near pointless, in my opinion, to try doing manual refills without one.

I started by sucking up 1ml of glycerine into my syringe, then 4ml of propylene glycol. I squeezed the syringe and dumped it all into a mixing bottle. I added 4 drops of nicotine solution (18mg nicotine liquid). Mixie mixie, then pull it back into the syringe and start filling the cartridges. I don't like flavors so I didn't use any. For me this mix was absolutely perfect.

I calculated it all out - a long string of math - and it came out to 1ml of liquid per cartridge, using an estimated equivalent of 5 real cigarettes per cartridge (per ml of liquid), giving me 4ml of liquid per pack of cigarettes. It came out to 3.5 cents per carton, if memory serves; if that's not correct, the amount was still negligible; easily dismissed at the end of a year. I'm more concerned with how long my gallon of PG (propylene glycol) will keep before going bad than I am with ever running out of the stuff.

Incidentally I never ever fill a cartride with the battery on it. Overfilling then just leaks back into the bottle (I'm holding the cartridge over it) and not into the battery.

 

[Rin13]

The only thing I can add, is that I've tried the glycerin you get at Walmart... and the stuff specifically for vaping... and I much prefer the vaping grade glycerine. However, I prefer a higher VG compared to PG... so in your case, it probably doesn't matter much.

 

[Gr8Scott]

I would strongly and emphatically advise against the tractor supply acquisition of PG


From Rolygate, who possesses much wisdom:

Default Purity of PG, VG and PEG - The Short Version

This information is primarily for DIY purposes, and describes the grades suitable for inhalation.

Three base liquid carriers are used for e-liquid manufacture: PG, VG and PEG - propylene glycol, ('vegetable') glycerine and polyethylene glycol.

These liquids, when used as the carrier for other materials, can be referred to as excipients or diluents.

Only the pharma grade of these materials should be used for inhalation, in theory, since all other grades contain contaminants to an increasing degree (the difference between the grades is the percentage of contaminants).

If e-cigarettes become regulated then it is a certainty that only pharma grade will be allowed for inhalation duty. The advantage of this is the minimal contaminant load; the disadvantage is that prices go up. Everyone has a different opinion on this, so in the current climate, where ingredients are unregulated / untested in some countries, perhaps vendors should simply publish what their policy is: either "we use pharma grade only" or "we use food grade", then people could choose accordingly. Some sort of proof would need to be offered if a vendor states 'pharma grade only' - talk is cheap, after all.

These carriers are made in four grades:

Pharmaceutical Grade - for human consumption including by inhalation
Food Grade - for human consumption by ingestion but not inhalation
Agricultural (Farm) Grade - for use in connection with animals
Industrial Grade - for use in machinery, manufacturing and similar purposes


All of these grades except Pharma Grade contain contaminants, in increasing amounts as the grade quality reduces. This is the difference in the grades.

DO NOT BUY FARM GRADE OR INDUSTRIAL GRADE MATERIALS FOR INHALATION - THEY ARE CONTAMINATED.

Even Food Grade should probably not be inhaled, because the digestive system can handle the contaminants in it that the lungs may not be able to. An example of this kind of difference is the flavoring chemical diacetyl, which has a very strong butter popcorn aroma. It is safe for ingestion (eating) as the digestive system can neutralize it; but it can be fatal when inhaled over a period of time as it causes a degenerative lung disease called 'popcorn lung', Bronchiolitis Obliterans. This is a rather extreme analogy, admittedly, but it does illustrate the very wide difference between the digestive tract and the lungs.

PG and VG are both sold in good quality and are labelled:
Propylene Glycol, USP (or BP or EU)
Glycerine, USP (or BP or EU)

It is possible that a USP product can be either pharma grade or food grade. The USP designation only refers to a general production regime and does not cover the percentage of contaminants. So a USP product might be considered safe for inhalation; or it might, on test, prove inadvisable to inhale. The only product that is guaranteed to be suitable for inhalation is a product that is (a) designated by the manufacturer as Pharmaceutical Grade, and that (b) also has a provable license for inclusion in a specific inhalable medicine. Needless to say this is virtually impossible to locate for the individual buyer. A vendor would be able to buy e.g. Dow Optim glycerine in quantity, for mixing down (or its PG equivalent), and be assured the material is suitable. This however doesn't take into account the nicotine base carrier PG or glycerine.


PG
Only propylene glycol of pharma grade should be inhaled, no other grade is suitable. All other grades contain contaminants.

VG
Glycerine should only be inhaled in pharma grade, which is often synthetic. The use of the term VG to describe the glycerine we use for inhalation is probably obsolete now, and stems from the early days of e-cigarette use when there was little use of Glycerine USP and DIYers had a choice between vegetable-source glycerine and animal-source glycerine [1]. Pharma grade glycerine for inhalation - the only type that should be used - is frequently synthetic [2] and therefore absolutely pure, so its origin is irrelevant.

[1] Glycerine can be made from a multiplicity of sources including animal carcases, biodiesel manufacture byproduct, palm oil, coconut oil, a combination of vegetable sources, or synthetically.
[2] To see more info on pharma grade glycerine, google 'dow optim'.

PEG
It is better to avoid PEG for DIY purposes if purchased 'ad hoc', i.e. not from a trusted vendor of inhalation products, as it is difficult to source in the correct viscosity (PEG400); but mainly because it is the most likely of all the excipients to be contaminated with DEG, a poison. It should probably not be used by anyone without access to a testing facility for DEG.

I almost did the same as you, I am glad I read this ahead of time

 

[Shilo]

The PG at the Tractor Store is USP as recommended previously and used by alot of vapers and probably alot of vendors.

Who sells pharma grade as I've never seen that designation on a bottle only USP. Including at the pharmacies---USP.

 

[Shilo]

Looks like this pharma grade has more to do with the purity percentage being listed on the bottle---it will still say USP. Makes it kind of hard with so many buying from the vendors as we don't know what brand they are selling. Dow looks to be the one to get for this grade.

 

[Hoosier]

The USP is clearly present on the PG from TS and it is from a well respected PG manufacturer who makes USP PG for a number of companies. I find it to be great PG and meets all vaping needs as it is pharma grade. The labeling for agricultural use confuses some people who don't understand Purity versus Marketing.

I'll try to clear it up again.
There are levels of purity and who has authority over the grade designation:
USP - USP
Food - FDA
Farm - USDA
Industrial - Manufacturer
(Note that the FDA defers to USP for pharma grade)

Now, you can make USP and market it to Pharma, Food, Farm, and Industrial. Since USP is more pure than needed for food, farm, and industrial it works fine since you cannot be too pure for other uses where less pure is acceptable.

If you make Food grade, you can market it to Food, Farm and Industrial, but not Pharma.

If you make Farm grade, you can market it to Farm and Industrial, but not Food or Pharma.

Industrial grade just has to be pure enough to not damage machines and is not suitable for any other use.

Cmalcheski being an unflavored mixer and vaper should have a fine appreciation for the tastes and lack of taste that comes from the basic components and if cmalcheski were to start using different sources of PG, VG and nicotine and comparing them, that would be a great thing for the rest of us.

 

[Shilo]

The USP is clearly present on the PG from TS and it is from a well respected PG manufacturer who makes USP PG for a number of companies. I find it to be great PG and meets all vaping needs as it is pharma grade. The labeling for agricultural use confuses some people who don't understand Purity versus Marketing.

I'll try to clear it up again.
There are levels of purity and who has authority over the grade designation:
USP - USP
Food - FDA
Farm - USDA
Industrial - Manufacturer
(Note that the FDA defers to USP for pharma grade)

Now, you can make USP and market it to Pharma, Food, Farm, and Industrial. Since USP is more pure than needed for food, farm, and industrial it works fine since you cannot be too pure for other uses where less pure is acceptable.

If you make Food grade, you can market it to Food, Farm and Industrial, but not Pharma.

If you make Farm grade, you can market it to Farm and Industrial, but not Food or Pharma.

Industrial grade just has to be pure enough to not damage machines and is not suitable for any other use.

Cmalcheski being an unflavored mixer and vaper should have a fine appreciation for the tastes and lack of taste that comes from the basic components and if cmalcheski were to start using different sources of PG, VG and nicotine and comparing them, that would be a great thing for the rest of us.

Glad to hear this Hoosier as I am halfway through a gallon from the Tractor Store myself.

 

[Hoosier]

I've been through a few gallons. I find it to be one of the better ones to work with. Seems to be even more neutral than a few others, but I'm not sure I can quantify or even describe what I mean. I think everyone should try different sources of USP PG and decide what works best for themselves.

 

[cmalcheski]

Gr8Scott: thank you (infinitely) for this info. Losing $22.45 on a gallon of PG is far preferrable to an early death. I will find and order the pharmaceutical grade PG.

 

[Uncle Willie]

The USP is clearly present on the PG from TS and it is from a well respected PG manufacturer who makes USP PG for a number of companies. I find it to be great PG and meets all vaping needs as it is pharma grade. The labeling for agricultural use confuses some people who don't understand Purity versus Marketing.

I'll try to clear it up again.
There are levels of purity and who has authority over the grade designation:
USP - USP
Food - FDA
Farm - USDA
Industrial - Manufacturer
(Note that the FDA defers to USP for pharma grade)

Now, you can make USP and market it to Pharma, Food, Farm, and Industrial. Since USP is more pure than needed for food, farm, and industrial it works fine since you cannot be too pure for other uses where less pure is acceptable.

If you make Food grade, you can market it to Food, Farm and Industrial, but not Pharma.

If you make Farm grade, you can market it to Farm and Industrial, but not Food or Pharma.

Industrial grade just has to be pure enough to not damage machines and is not suitable for any other use.

Cmalcheski being an unflavored mixer and vaper should have a fine appreciation for the tastes and lack of taste that comes from the basic components and if cmalcheski were to start using different sources of PG, VG and nicotine and comparing them, that would be a great thing for the rest of us.

As a user of the TSC PG .. I was shocked to read rolys info post .. the TSC material is widely recommended here on ECF .. now I almost feel I should ditch what I have left ..

And I guess that explains the udder I grew on my forehead as well ..

 

[markfm]

A similar case holds for VG -- the Walmart Glycerin USP is absolutely fine to use, as is CVS/Rite Aid (where I get mine -- I pass by both drug stores daily).

Any differences really ought to be way down in the noise, as these products are 99.5% (most of that last 0.5% is water), with constraints on certain specific impurities. If someone says a certain Glycerin tastes significantly different, "better", than other Glycerin USP, I'd be more inclined to steer clear of it. Flavor comes from chemicals, and I neither want, nor expect, anything other than straight-up Glycerin.

 

[gzp4]

Not sure but wouldn't 4 drops of 18mg nicotine in 5 ml give you a very, very small amount of nicotine per ml?

From what I've seen, Wizard Labs has very good prices on nicotine and a very good reputation.

 

[markfm]

Yes, 4 drops is order of magnitude 1/5 ml, depending on what the nic base carrier is, so the final solution would end up around 0.7 - 1 mg/ml?

Real low nic vaping

 

[BakuPeg]

Just to reiterate.
USP PG is USP PG.
USP VG is USP VG.
Both are fine for our DIY Vaping needs.

I know everyone has their preferences but PG bought at Tractor Supply IS STILL USP PG!
VG bought at Walmart and Publix IS STILL USP VG!

I know we all love our favorite online vendors for their PG and VG.
But you *CAN* Safely vape products bought at your local B&M stores.

/soapbox.

 

[JUDGMENT AFFIRMED]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/385631-grade-confusion.html