By all means try the tobaccos and teas separately, but I made a tea-bacco by combining both and crock-potting them together. It's awesome.
Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco and Tea
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Thanks for the reply, Bill. I have now gone to just NET's...whatever flavors and character the tobaccos have is what I'm tasting. This is so much better...
Question for all you NET DIY-ers…has anyone experienced flavor loss as their juice mixes steep? I have a couple of pipe and cigar mixes that are around the 3week mark now, and one seems to have completely lost it's flavor. Curious as to whether this might be the blends/cigars I've chosen or if there's some strange calm before the storm going on with these. I have numerous other mixes that are doing fine, but these are mysteriously diminishing. All are 18% in 50/50 base.
Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.
Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.
Dust,
I can't offer definitive or objective statements, but I'll be happy to share my overall experience after 24 extractions over the past year.
My tobacco extracts are always sweeter when they're fresh. Sometimes they're quite sweet (with a natural sweetness, as opposed to artificial/synthetic sweetener that's added after the fact), other times they're moderately sweet. I'd guess that has to do with two factors: 1. the presence of VG in the liquid base (I always use a blend of PG/VG for extractions; the ratio varies---these days, I'm using 80/20), and 2. the soluble sugars in the flavinoids that leech from the tobacco. Those sugars seem to have an immediate presence with considerable impact, relative to the more hard-core tobacco flavor. All my extractions have been with blended tobaccos rather than single-leaf varietals. I don't, however, notice any significant difference in initial sweetness between cased/flavored/aromatic tobaccos and uncased/unflavored/non-aromatic blends.
Over a period of some months---at least three and up to twelve---which varies from one extract to another---the sweetness diminishes and the truer tobacco flavor steps forward. Sometimes this is subtle; other times dramatic. So yes, steeping/aging of the extract does seem to change the flavor profile, always away from sweetness and toward greater tobacco presence.
I have never noticed flavor loss over time with any of my extracts. Flavor change, yes. Flavor loss, no. Now, keep in mind that the oldest extraction I have is only one year old at this point. Half my extractions are less than six months old. How their flavor will hold up over multiple years is an unknown.
The biggest change I've seen in any homemade extract so far was with my first coffee extract. I made it using ground coffee from high-quality home-roasted beans that were fresh (less than 10 day past roast)---Ethiopian Sidamo Guji beans. When the extract was fresh, there was a weird off-taste to the mixed juice, less a flavor, per se, than a metallic side-tone. At any rate, I didn't like it and regarded the extraction as a failure. I almost tossed it, but instead simply put it into the extract cabinet and forgot about it.
Eight months passed. Recently, I atty-dripped a little Sidamo-Guji juice from a DIY bottle I'd made early on, when the extract was fresh (and lousy). To my amazement, the juice was now delicious. The weird metallic side-taste was completely gone, and the coffee flavor had deepened with a lovely richness. I mixed up a fresh bottle of DIY juice from the now well-steeped extract, and the result was the same---delicious. Go figure.
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As to why one or two of your extracts has gone south and lost its flavor, I can offer no profound insights and only pose the logical (and perhaps not very brilliant) questions:
1. What process did you use for the maceration (heat-assisted or cold-processed)?
2. What was the ratio of tobacco (in grams) to liquid (in ml)?
3. What was the base liquid (PG, VG, or a mix)?
4. If cold-processed, how long was the steep?
5. If heat-assisted, what was the temperature and for how long?
6. What pipe blend tobacco or specific cigar was used, and what tobacco varietals were involved?
7. Did you extract the two different tobaccos in the same batch, meaning at the same time?
You gotta give us specifics for everything!
Do your extracts taste "cooked" when you use heat? Not talking like a burnt flavor but since you have them on heat for a period of time, one would imagine that you are cooking them.
Mine don't.
Heat-assisted macerations are a common method for tobacco extractions. There's a big difference between "cooking" and "warming" that has to do with how much heat and how long.
How long on low before it is considered cooked. Reason I ask is, before I found this thread, I heated a batch on low for 24-30hrs. Tasted great but then again, not sure how it supposed to taste as I haven't had a NET before my own.
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No objective criteria exist for determining that. It's like the question: How do you know that food tastes good? Answer: By tasting it.
Here's one thing to try: Make a maceration and use the "cold" method (room temperature). Two days before a month is up, make another identical maceration---same tobacco, same base liquid---but use the heat-assisted method. Filter both, on, and make up identical juices from each. Then you can compare the two juices to see if the one made from the heat-assisted one tastes "cooked" (or, more to the point, "over-cooked").
one of my heat-assisted extracts was made from a pipe tobacco called Sultan's Blend from Milan Tobacconists online. My friend John sent me a sample of his extract, made from exactly the same tobacco, but cold-processed. Juices made from the two extracts tasted identical to me. No discernible difference at all.
I've done "cooks" at low heat for up to two days (six hours on, six hours off, for four cycles). My current heat-assisted process uses a single 12-hour steep in a warm water bath. I haven't measured the water temperature, but I keep it well below a simmer (meaning that the water isn't steamy). I'm happy with that. You'll have to find out what you're happy with.
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Thanks for the info! I had a guy give me a cig at work tonight and I gave it a couple pulls unlit. Had almost the same taste as my NET. Pretty impressed. I have had other NETs that I did a cold extract on and they pale in comparison. I guess the true test is to due a heat extract on one that I did a cold extract on like you said. I have did a couple blend extracts but the heat one was a single leaf. Dripped it at 12% and I think I can go down to 10% for sure and possibly lower.
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Bill,
I THOUGHT these were all heat-assist macerations in 100%PG, in my crock pot at lowest heat, just like all my others.
However, I just dug through my extraction notes and realized I had done an experiment with the same 2 tobaccos in my usual PG AND in straight VG. I must have jumbled up the bottles when labeling the DIY mixes. These liquids are much more viscous than the other batches, and I'm guessing this has to be the explanation to the lack of flavor at this point. I'm mixing up a batch of the same extracts that were all PG to compare.
Moral of this story...read your own damn notes!
Guess what day it is? CIGAR DAY!
I'm extracting four cigars today (to be filtered tomorrow):
1. Aging Room F55
Dominican Havano longfillers and binders, box-pressed in gorgeous, buttery-smooth genuine Sumatra wrappers. Balanced, sophisticated cigar that displays rich notes of roasted coffee bean and sweet cedar. Won #1 Cigar of 2013 award from Cigar Aficionado.
2. Carlos Torano Exodus 1959 50 Years
sun-grown Brazilian Arapiraca wrapper, Nicaraguan long-fillers, flavors include notes of cocoa, earth, nuts, dried berries, spices, sweetness and a long satisfying finish. Smooth, balanced and complex.
3. Oliva Nub Cameroon
Cameroon wrapper, Nicaraguan core, rich notes of cedar and coffee.
4. Rocky Patel Vintage 1990 Churchill
medium Honduran broadleaf Maduro wrapper, Nicaraguan binder, Dominican and Nicaraguan fillers; medium body and stout flavors of leather and wood.
In typical fashion for me, I set out to do these as one-month cold-process (room-temperature) macerations, but when push came to shove, I chose one-day heat-assisted (warm water bath) macerations instead. I just don't have the patience for a 30-day steep. If I felt that slow no-heat steeps produced an extract that were better in some significant way, I'd reconsider, but my experience is that no meaningful difference exists, and my bias is in favor of the somewhat more intense flavors produced by a brief, warm steep.
I used half of each cigar, about 8 grams of tobacco suspended in 120ml of 70/30 PG/VG. I chopped up the cigars, ending up with pieces of wrapper and binder that were about 1/4" square.120ml is more liquid than I intended to use, but it took that much to cover the tobacco in my maceration jars. The yield I'm looking for is 60ml of finished extract from each maceration, since the tobacco will absorb much of the liquid. Unlike some home extractors, I don't "press" the tobacco to get every last drop of extract out of the maceration. Although I can't guarantee that my reasoning is an accurate reflection of reality, here are my reasons:
After 21 tobacco extractions, all heat-assisted, I've never encountered a problem with lack of flavor. My efforts at improving my extractions focus on reducing the cellulose particulates that leech into the extract from disintegrating tobacco, so as to minimize coil/wick gunking. I want my extracts to be as light and squeaky-clean as possible, in terms of performance.
As a result, I do nothing to "disturb" the macerations. I don't stir them, because that would increase the leeching of particulates. And I won't squeeze all the PG/VG out of the tobacco bulk before filtering for the same reason. Since I'm not worried about flavor, I'm willing to sacrifice some of the maceration liquid to keep particulates to a minimum and enhance the clean performance of the extracts.
I have especially high hopes for the Rocky Patel 1990 Churchill, since it was palpably more moist than the other three. All are newly-purchased online and relatively fresh (I assume), but the Rocky Patel was way more moist than the others, so I'm guessing that it will provide the most flavorful extract. We'll see.
I don't know if cigar extractions are a different creature than the cigarette and pipe tobacco extractions I've done so far (which, if so, might necessitate altering the process that has evolved over the past year for my extractions). For now, I'll use the same single 12-hour warm water bath that worked so beautifully in my last batch of pipe tobaccos. I'll find out tomorrow, though, and report back.
I'm extracting four cigars today (to be filtered tomorrow):
1. Aging Room F55
Dominican Havano longfillers and binders, box-pressed in gorgeous, buttery-smooth genuine Sumatra wrappers. Balanced, sophisticated cigar that displays rich notes of roasted coffee bean and sweet cedar. Won #1 Cigar of 2013 award from Cigar Aficionado.
2. Carlos Torano Exodus 1959 50 Years
sun-grown Brazilian Arapiraca wrapper, Nicaraguan long-fillers, flavors include notes of cocoa, earth, nuts, dried berries, spices, sweetness and a long satisfying finish. Smooth, balanced and complex.
3. Oliva Nub Cameroon
Cameroon wrapper, Nicaraguan core, rich notes of cedar and coffee.
4. Rocky Patel Vintage 1990 Churchill
medium Honduran broadleaf Maduro wrapper, Nicaraguan binder, Dominican and Nicaraguan fillers; medium body and stout flavors of leather and wood.
In typical fashion for me, I set out to do these as one-month cold-process (room-temperature) macerations, but when push came to shove, I chose one-day heat-assisted (warm water bath) macerations instead. I just don't have the patience for a 30-day steep. If I felt that slow no-heat steeps produced an extract that were better in some significant way, I'd reconsider, but my experience is that no meaningful difference exists, and my bias is in favor of the somewhat more intense flavors produced by a brief, warm steep.
I used half of each cigar, about 8 grams of tobacco suspended in 120ml of 70/30 PG/VG. I chopped up the cigars, ending up with pieces of wrapper and binder that were about 1/4" square.120ml is more liquid than I intended to use, but it took that much to cover the tobacco in my maceration jars. The yield I'm looking for is 60ml of finished extract from each maceration, since the tobacco will absorb much of the liquid. Unlike some home extractors, I don't "press" the tobacco to get every last drop of extract out of the maceration. Although I can't guarantee that my reasoning is an accurate reflection of reality, here are my reasons:
After 21 tobacco extractions, all heat-assisted, I've never encountered a problem with lack of flavor. My efforts at improving my extractions focus on reducing the cellulose particulates that leech into the extract from disintegrating tobacco, so as to minimize coil/wick gunking. I want my extracts to be as light and squeaky-clean as possible, in terms of performance.
As a result, I do nothing to "disturb" the macerations. I don't stir them, because that would increase the leeching of particulates. And I won't squeeze all the PG/VG out of the tobacco bulk before filtering for the same reason. Since I'm not worried about flavor, I'm willing to sacrifice some of the maceration liquid to keep particulates to a minimum and enhance the clean performance of the extracts.
I have especially high hopes for the Rocky Patel 1990 Churchill, since it was palpably more moist than the other three. All are newly-purchased online and relatively fresh (I assume), but the Rocky Patel was way more moist than the others, so I'm guessing that it will provide the most flavorful extract. We'll see.
I don't know if cigar extractions are a different creature than the cigarette and pipe tobacco extractions I've done so far (which, if so, might necessitate altering the process that has evolved over the past year for my extractions). For now, I'll use the same single 12-hour warm water bath that worked so beautifully in my last batch of pipe tobaccos. I'll find out tomorrow, though, and report back.
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The four cigar macerations have now been through a 12-hour heat-assisted steep in a warm water bath. The liquid in all four jars has turned dark, although still transparent. I opened the jar with the Rocky Patel, and the scent wasn't as strong as I expected. So I took a 1-dram (3.7ml) glass bottle with an eye dropper cap, siphoned off a little of the transparent liquid, and mixed up a small bottle of juice using 20% extract (17 drops) in 50/50 PG/VG at 18mg nic.
My, my. Cigar extractions may indeed be a very different creature than cigarette or pipe tobacco blends. This stuff isn't ready yet.
The liquid in my small DIY bottle is a very light gold/tan. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "pale," but it's close. It's a shade darker than the DIY juices made from MyVapeJuice cigar extracts, but not by much. The problem is flavor, or rather, lack of flavor Rocky Patel juice has a little flavor, but not enough. Not nearly enough.
If this one test is any indication, then cigars---especially straight tobacco cigars without the casings of other flavorings---may not yield as much flavor in extraction as cigarette and pipe tobaccos. I'm not sure why that should be so, but all Diane's MVJ cigars, whether cold-process or heat-assisted macerations, are also lighter in flavor. With this test bottle, I get hints of the wood and leather as in the description, and I can tell that I'm vaping a cigar, but just barely. The tobacco flavor simply hasn't developed much at this point.
I've returned the jar to the pot with the warm water bath and turned the heat on the lowest setting again. I'll let the four jars steep overnight and test again tomorrow after cooling, but I doubt that one extra heating session will produce any major transformations. I'll test the others tomorrow to make sure that the Rocky Patel isn't anomalous.
My Plan B right now is to put the sealed jars on the kitchen windowsill tomorrow and give them a week of sun at room temperature. If that doesn't do the trick for developing fuller flavor, then maybe a month. I'll just have to play it by ear and test the extracts every so often.
My, my. Cigar extractions may indeed be a very different creature than cigarette or pipe tobacco blends. This stuff isn't ready yet.
The liquid in my small DIY bottle is a very light gold/tan. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "pale," but it's close. It's a shade darker than the DIY juices made from MyVapeJuice cigar extracts, but not by much. The problem is flavor, or rather, lack of flavor Rocky Patel juice has a little flavor, but not enough. Not nearly enough.
If this one test is any indication, then cigars---especially straight tobacco cigars without the casings of other flavorings---may not yield as much flavor in extraction as cigarette and pipe tobaccos. I'm not sure why that should be so, but all Diane's MVJ cigars, whether cold-process or heat-assisted macerations, are also lighter in flavor. With this test bottle, I get hints of the wood and leather as in the description, and I can tell that I'm vaping a cigar, but just barely. The tobacco flavor simply hasn't developed much at this point.
I've returned the jar to the pot with the warm water bath and turned the heat on the lowest setting again. I'll let the four jars steep overnight and test again tomorrow after cooling, but I doubt that one extra heating session will produce any major transformations. I'll test the others tomorrow to make sure that the Rocky Patel isn't anomalous.
My Plan B right now is to put the sealed jars on the kitchen windowsill tomorrow and give them a week of sun at room temperature. If that doesn't do the trick for developing fuller flavor, then maybe a month. I'll just have to play it by ear and test the extracts every so often.
I know with the the Cuban cigars I do I have to do at least 3 or 4 eight hour cycles in the crock pot and I get good results as far as flavor.
Thanks, IV. Maybe I'll keep the maceration jars in the water bath at below-simmer temps for another full day or two. A funny (ha-ha, not weird) side effect of my set-up---pasta pot, water bath, 1960s Jenn-Aire electric cook top---is that the lowest heat setting for the electric coil keeps the water a little steamy and just below a simmer, but it supplies enough kinetic energy to the pot to cause the maceration jars to jiggle a little, "walk around," and click into each other. My apartment has an L-shaped living room/open kitchen, so the pot is ten feet away from my couch and coffee table desk. Makes for a little background noise that keeps me aware that the heat-assisted steeping process is happening.
Bill,
I noticed the same with the 2 cigars I did. After 1 cook of 12 hours, I had great color, but flavor was pretty mild. Mine where exposed to at least 36 hours total.
I also used considerably lower ratio of base to tobacco: 6 grams tobacco to 40 ml of 50/50 base. Yielded 30-35 ml of extract. Course, I did press all the base out of the tobacco using a syringe/cotton filter. This went into a separate bottle for review of organic matter before I use it.
God willing and the snow don't fly, I'll mix some small testers today.
I noticed the same with the 2 cigars I did. After 1 cook of 12 hours, I had great color, but flavor was pretty mild. Mine where exposed to at least 36 hours total.
I also used considerably lower ratio of base to tobacco: 6 grams tobacco to 40 ml of 50/50 base. Yielded 30-35 ml of extract. Course, I did press all the base out of the tobacco using a syringe/cotton filter. This went into a separate bottle for review of organic matter before I use it.
God willing and the snow don't fly, I'll mix some small testers today.
With me being in the Bahamas I can get real Cuban cigars and tobacco. The extracts I do in a crock pot come out and tastes just like the cigars do. Sounds like you have a musical extraction going on in your place LOL. I only use PG on my extractions and add VG latter with great results
Well...My NET sure is a coil killer...this coil was used to sample a few different strengts, and the progress of steeping. I've probably vaped 2-3 ml on this.
rachet,
Yes, I wonder about my ratio of tobacco to base. I used 8 grams of tobacco (about half of each cigar) for 70ml of base. I wondered last night whether I should chop up the remaining half of each cigar and add it to the respective maceration. I haven't decided yet, but I might still do that. I'm leaning toward it.
Non-Maduro cigars, from my experience thus far, require either more time or more tobacco in the maceration. It has something to do with the oil content of the leaves and the result on the final extract. My Cubanos were definitely weaker in flavor than the last 2 Maduros I've extracted (all heat-assists for the same duration at same temp.), and like a heavilly cased pipe tobacco influences strength and flavor, so do these tobaccos on cigar NETs. For instance, a Blonde or a Connecticut is going to need more time and or volume of tobacco, versus as Brazilian or Maduro wrapper cigar.
Yesterday I chopped up the four remaining cigar halves and added them to the respective macerations, then let the suspensions heat-steep all day long today. I've turned off the heat for the evening, but I'll do a third day tomorrow of the almost-simmering water bath. Then I'll check one or two of the extracts to see where they are at that point. I'm not worried, just learning as I go. Cigars are different. The combination of having already done many extractions and being relatively fearless about it are serving me well.
The small bottle of DIY Rocky Patel I made yesterday tastes better vaped this evening. Not that it's suddenly wonderful---it's still too light in flavor---but steeping is clearly one of the variables here.
The small bottle of DIY Rocky Patel I made yesterday tastes better vaped this evening. Not that it's suddenly wonderful---it's still too light in flavor---but steeping is clearly one of the variables here.
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