Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco and Tea

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sandman97289

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Update to anyone interested.
2.5 micron lab filters do not...i repeat..do not effect flavor to any noticable degree. I acually filtered 4 15ml bottles of premade juice, made with one of my extractions. Set up 2 mini drippers with the exact same specs. Tried before and after. No noticable difference in taste.

Interesting. What was your method of extraction and which filters did you end up using?
 

billherbst

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I noticed in a post about DIY the other day that someone mentioned not using alcohol in tobacco extractions because it produced nitrosamines (which are well-established as known carcinogens) in the extract. Did a little research online and discovered the abstract of a study confirming this. The study especially noted that what it called "crude extraction of tobacco" using alcohol produced sufficient nitrosamines in the extract to be mutagenic to bacteria cultures. I was not thrilled to read that.

As with so many other factors coming up during the infancy and childhood of vaping, I'm not entirely sure what to make of this information. What I read seemed like good, trustworthy science, but I don't know how serious the risks are, nor whether PGA in a maceration would for sure produce cancer-causing compounds. I'd been planning on a batch of heat-assisted pipe/cigar macerations using a solvent of 90% PG and 10% PGA to speed up the extraction process, but I think I'll err on the safe side for now and put away my bottle of PGA. Instead, I'll go back to my usual PG/VG blend for solvent.

Seems to me undeniable that we are the lab rats here. With all flavorings---synthetic, natural, tobacco, whatever---no one can be 100% certain about what's benign and what's potentially toxic to inhale. Some factors are more obvious than others. Diacetyl, for instance, seems to carry some long-term lung risk, at least if we are to believe the studies that have been done. Other possible toxins are completely hidden at this point. Decades will be required to sort out all this stuff and separate the wheat from the chaff.

I'm certainly not advising anyone to avoid PGA-based extractions, as I bring no authority to the table here. But for me, I'll put PGA on the shelf for now and not use it in my macerations. I smoked for 38 years, and even though my lungs are clear now (according to my doctor) and my breathing significantly easier after four years of not smoking, I have no doubt that the long-term damage is still with me. I don't wish to add to that if I can avoid it without too much sacrifice. These days, I choose simple pleasures rather than guilty pleasures whenever I can.
 

Bagazo

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Did a little research online and discovered the abstract of a study confirming this.
Don't know what it was that you saw but a quick search led me to a study that says that a crude alcohol extract of tobacco contained nitrosamines, not that it produced them.

This would have been already present in the tobacco and since alcohol, water, VG and PG are all polar and nitrosamines are also polar then they are all going to pull them out of tobacco.

I believe that is one of the reasons some frown upon NTEs.
 
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billherbst

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Don't know what it was that you saw but a quick search led me to a study that says that a crude alcohol extract of tobacco contained nitrosamines, not that it produced them.

This would have been already present in the tobacco and since alcohol, water, VG and PG are all polar and nitrosamines are also polar then they are all going to pull them out of tobacco.

I believe that is one of the reasons some frown upon NTEs.

That's what I meant. Not that the alcohol synthesized nitrosamines, but that the extract produced contained them. Yes, the nitrosamines are inherently present in the tobacco, and the solvent in the maceration "caused" (allowed) them to seep into the solvent. As for the polarity factor and your assertion that VG and PG will also result in nitrosamines in the extract, I simply don't know enough to agree or argue the point with you. The relevant question here is probably not about absolute purity or lack of harm, but about how much potentially harmful elements are contained in the flavoring, and the likelihood of ill effects based on the amounts inhaled.

The link below contains a brief discussion of TSNAs (Tobacco Specific Nitrosamines) in a very practical fashion from a site that sells extracts of natural tobacco.

TSNAs in NETs
 
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Bagazo

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The relevant question here is probably not about absolute purity or lack of harm, but about how much potentially harmful elements are contained in the flavoring, and the likelihood of ill effects based on the amounts inhaled.
And the accompanying question is, are all NTE solvents pulling out these potentially harmful elements?

Just because they used alcohol to extract in that particular study doesn't mean that PGA is the only solvent that will leech TSNAs.
 

clnire

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I was reading a thread on a Facebook group for DIY and someone posted that he had extracted coffee in pg then strained it through cheesecloth. Another person posted this:

quote:
Be very careful doing these type of extractions. There has been scientists that have said organic matter can end up rotting in your lungs with some natural/organic flavorings which is why most of the flavorings we see are artificial flavorings. I've heard stories of people doing some and ending up with rotting juice as well Tread carefully.
end quote

After a little discussion that person stated this:

quote
Yes... There was a radio broadcast with Jeannie Kerswill and Dr. Kurt awhile back discussing natural/organic flavorings. DIY would be even worse as we can't strain/separate at home like they can in a lab. Either way the flavoring is provided by organic particles... so basically you end up with food rotting in your lungs. No bueno. If anyone has the link to the broadcast about it - would be good to post. I'll see if I can find it, it was some time ago.
end quote

The program referred to:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBDm8tSUEU

I have seen the program, and it didn't really raise any real red flags to me at the time about NETs, just throwing this out there. I love my NETs; have not really found many synthetic tobacco flavors I like. Not panicking, just food for thought. In the interest of safety. I DO NOT KNOW!!!!!!! I am NOT trying to scare anyone off or offend anyone. I only know what I read on the internet...:blink:... but I will continue to research and if I find any more real studies I will follow up. :confused: I also know we are all filtering much finer than cheesecloth, so who really knows?

As Bill "implied"???????, and Ian said, we are the guinea pigs here. We are all just trying to stay off what we know will kill us in a very nasty way. It will take many years of study before they really know the details. I don't know what to make of this information myself, but it is something to think about. I am still going to enjoy my NETs.
 
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billherbst

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And the accompanying question is, are all NTE solvents pulling out these potentially harmful elements?

Just because they used alcohol to extract in that particular study doesn't mean that PGA is the only solvent that will leech TSNAs.

My statement was not limited to a specific solvent. Geez.
 

usr/

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Good discussion and links guy's. So far only done a couple of extractions using only 100% pg, but plan on doing some pg/pga/heat extractions. Smoked for 42 years and was exposed to a multitude of industrial chemicals and asbestos in the 70's up through 2000. But smoking was clearly killing me. After nearly 1 1/2 years smoke free I feel 100% better. It is what it is. Have a 7th Avenue Blonde steeping at the moment and started a Capt. Black Dark yesterday. Waiting on some more pg coming for Stanwell Kir and Apple. Boy that stuff smells fantastic. The bad thing about handling these tobacco's for extracting is the temptation to smoke it. Trying to stay focused can be a challenge.
 

Scotsman6783

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I was reading a thread on a Facebook group for DIY and someone posted that he had extracted coffee in pg then strained it through cheesecloth. Another person posted this:

quote:
Be very careful doing these type of extractions. There has been scientists that have said organic matter can end up rotting in your lungs with some natural/organic flavorings which is why most of the flavorings we see are artificial flavorings. I've heard stories of people doing some and ending up with rotting juice as well Tread carefully.
end quote

After a little discussion that person stated this:

quote
Yes... There was a radio broadcast with Jeannie Kerswill and Dr. Kurt awhile back discussing natural/organic flavorings. DIY would be even worse as we can't strain/separate at home like they can in a lab. Either way the flavoring is provided by organic particles... so basically you end up with food rotting in your lungs. No bueno. If anyone has the link to the broadcast about it - would be good to post. I'll see if I can find it, it was some time ago.
end quote

The program referred to:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBDm8tSUEU

I have seen the program, and it didn't really raise any real red flags to me at the time about NETs, just throwing this out there. I love my NETs; have not really found many synthetic tobacco flavors I like. Not panicking, just food for thought. In the interest of safety. I DO NOT KNOW!!!!!!! I am NOT trying to scare anyone off or offend anyone. I only know what I read on the internet...:blink:... but I will continue to research and if I find any more real studies I will follow up. :confused: I also know we are all filtering much finer than cheesecloth, so who really knows?

As Bill "implied"???????, and Ian said, we are the guinea pigs here. We are all just trying to stay off what we know will kill us in a very nasty way. It will take many years of study before they really know the details. I don't know what to make of this information myself, but it is something to think about. I am still going to enjoy my NETs.
Running your extractions through a low micron filter like i did may take out a fair ammount of extra junk from coffee and tea extracts. Labs use qualitative paper filters, same ones i bought, for some filtering. Im sure the could get something below 2.5 microns (what i use now), its something i may look into in the near future. A simple buchner funnel and 2.5 micron lab filter work great by comparison to the coffee filters i used to use which, as mentioned in a previous post, range anywhere from 10 to 30 microns.
Buchner funnel and filters cost me under $30 from Amazon. Funnel is ceramic.
 

Scotsman6783

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Good discussion and links guy's. So far only done a couple of extractions using only 100% pg, but plan on doing some pg/pga/heat extractions. Smoked for 42 years and was exposed to a multitude of industrial chemicals and asbestos in the 70's up through 2000. But smoking was clearly killing me. After nearly 1 1/2 years smoke free I feel 100% better. It is what it is. Have a 7th Avenue Blonde steeping at the moment and started a Capt. Black Dark yesterday. Waiting on some more pg coming for Stanwell Kir and Apple. Boy that stuff smells fantastic. The bad thing about handling these tobacco's for extracting is the temptation to smoke it. Trying to stay focused can be a challenge.
All of my extractions have been PG based only. They are, in my opinion, turning out good. I have sent 3 30ml bottles off to a friend who mixes for a shop to put through the ringer. Im interested to see his feedback.
Currently i have 4 pipe blends ( three lord of the rings themed blends from Justforhim.com) and Captain Black Royal, 3 cigars ( Black n Mild Jazz, Adam n Eve blueberry, and Swisher Sweet BLK) and two cigarette blends extracting now. The first round of middle earth pipe blends are what i sent to the friend and i have pulled and extraction on the Black n Mild Jazz before with great results. I have also done a chi tea and a coffee, both great too.
 

billherbst

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Well you did say you were shelving PGA because of that study. It seemed pretty specific.

I see people saying things like I only use PG or PG is the best but that doesn't really answer the question, is PG pulling TSNAs from the tobacco.

I've done many macerated extractions---more than 40---using various blends of PG/VG for solvent. Recently I tried a couple with 100% PGA. I then evaporated off the PGA under low heat and reconstituted the extract using PG. Initially, the results seemed acceptable, but over time I became less enthusiastic about the finished extracts. This was not based on any concrete evidence or scientific information, but something about PGA extractions was not sitting well with me. So, I wasn't entirely comfortable with my plan to try a 90% PG/10% PGA extraction. What I read on ECF and online about nitrosamines was not, in and of itself, the cause of my decision not to use PGA. That info was simply the tipping point to change a plan about which I already had vague but persistent misgivings.

The whole issue of the relative harmfulness or harmlessness of vaping is a veritable hornet's nest. Sifting through the mountain of different, often conflicting opinions can be confusing, not to mention aggravating. Whether we're discussing natural tobacco extraction or synthetic, lab-based flavorings, we know very little with certainty about the effects, if any, of long-term inhalation. Vaping is so new that valid and dependable information is darned hard to come by. But then, many experiences in life are surrounded by a virtual Tower of Babel of different judgments, many of which are offered as truth or fact, but may be little more than opinion or bias.

My first post was intended to share the information I'd come across and report my change in plans. My second post, however, had already moved into the realm of the general uncertainty we face with regard to all flavorings of any kind: "The relevant question here is probably not about absolute purity or lack of harm, but about how much potentially harmful elements are contained in the flavoring, and the likelihood of ill effects based on the amounts inhaled." I wasn't referring to PGA, nor even to PG and VG or other solvents, but to flavorings in general.
 

papabogart

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The first thing you should do when conducting research, reading a non-fiction book or reading an editorial is to "know" the author.

"I know smoking is bad for my health, but I'm going to die of something eventually,so why not pick my poison?"

I've never met the person who can go through a day without at least one good rationalization.

I had a conversation with a group of folks where the topic was: At what age did the doctor start telling you, "At your age..." or "If you were a younger man/woman...but at this point in your life, I wouldn't bother having this test or that procedure."

I started vaping to save money, and if it reduced the hacking, that'd be fine. To my surprise, vaping tobacco extracts are as flavorful as I had expected smoking to be when I had my first cigarette and my first bowl. Smoking was a compulsion, a craving, vaping is enjoyable.

Is vaping safe? Common sense tells you probably not. Is it safer than smoking? Maybe, who knows.
If we understood how cells turned cancerous, we might know how to prevent it. We do know that there is a relationshio between cetain chemicals and increased likelyhood of cancer. Nitrosamines are one of those chemicals. PGA contains nitrosamines, PGA nitrosamines have been connected to increased incidences of digestive tract cancers. Although PG and VG contains no nitrosamines, the safe limit for intake is considered 1g/ml. How does that relate to vaping 5ml of juice a day?

The real danger of tobacco is in the smoke. Vaping eliminates the smoke from burning so it is safer. Really? Never heard of cancer of the mouth, gums, throats etc. from smokeless tobacco? There was a study awaiting peer review in 2012 that found a connection between the nitrosamines in smokeless tobaccos and cancer (interesting that I've never found it published.)
I smoked an ounce of tobacco a day, an ounce of tobacco will produce enough extract to last me a month of vaping, so. I'm now using 1/100 of the tobacco vaping than I did when smoking. It must be healthier. Really? Maybe the extract is so concentrated that it contains a thousand times more of the carcinogenic substances like nitrosamines than when smoking.
I personally make, or only purchase, extracts that are made with filter, CO2, or Steam processes. Seen any lab reports that show any of those processes result in no presence of nitrosamines? Supposedly calcium carbonate and activated charcoal filtration may reduce nitrosamines, but they would likely result in elimination of flavor.
So you eliminated all of the nitrosamines. What about the radiation levels? Tobacco has shown to have high radiation levels due to cultivation processes that create radiation containing dusts that adhere to the plant. These dusts wii wash off most edible plants, but because of the sticky coating of tobacco leaves due to the resin in the plant trichomes, it remains on tobacco. This dust born radiation is inhaled and builds up in the lungs. You got a filter or process that will eliminate particles as small as .01 microns?

Bottom line is that bodily intake of anything in excess or that is not necessary for survival is usually unhealthy. Risk vs reward. We easily accept the reward, When the risks are unknown or when known, are contrary to our head -strong desire for reward, we revert to rationalization.
In this case, we really have no idea what the risks truly are. It's unlikely we will learn them before any damage is done.

As things currently stand, if I were a younger man with any common sense, I'd quit vaping or I would stop worrying about it.

No offense meant.
 

Scotsman6783

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The first thing you should do when conducting research, reading a non-fiction book or reading an editorial is to "know" the author.

"I know smoking is bad for my health, but I'm going to die of something eventually,so why not pick my poison?"

I've never met the person who can go through a day without at least one good rationalization.

I had a conversation with a group of folks where the topic was: At what age did the doctor start telling you, "At your age..." or "If you were a younger man/woman...but at this point in your life, I wouldn't bother having this test or that procedure."

I started vaping to save money, and if it reduced the hacking, that'd be fine. To my surprise, vaping tobacco extracts are as flavorful as I had expected smoking to be when I had my first cigarette and my first bowl. Smoking was a compulsion, a craving, vaping is enjoyable.

Is vaping safe? Common sense tells you probably not. Is it safer than smoking? Maybe, who knows.
If we understood how cells turned cancerous, we might know how to prevent it. We do know that there is a relationshio between cetain chemicals and increased likelyhood of cancer. Nitrosamines are one of those chemicals. PGA contains nitrosamines, PGA nitrosamines have been connected to increased incidences of digestive tract cancers. Although PG and VG contains no nitrosamines, the safe limit for intake is considered 1g/ml. How does that relate to vaping 5ml of juice a day?

The real danger of tobacco is in the smoke. Vaping eliminates the smoke from burning so it is safer. Really? Never heard of cancer of the mouth, gums, throats etc. from smokeless tobacco? There was a study awaiting peer review in 2012 that found a connection between the nitrosamines in smokeless tobaccos and cancer (interesting that I've never found it published.)
I smoked an ounce of tobacco a day, an ounce of tobacco will produce enough extract to last me a month of vaping, so. I'm now using 1/100 of the tobacco vaping than I did when smoking. It must be healthier. Really? Maybe the extract is so concentrated that it contains a thousand times more of the carcinogenic substances like nitrosamines than when smoking.
I personally make, or only purchase, extracts that are made with filter, CO2, or Steam processes. Seen any lab reports that show any of those processes result in no presence of nitrosamines? Supposedly calcium carbonate and activated charcoal filtration may reduce nitrosamines, but they would likely result in elimination of flavor.
So you eliminated all of the nitrosamines. What about the radiation levels? Tobacco has shown to have high radiation levels due to cultivation processes that create radiation containing dusts that adhere to the plant. These dusts wii wash off most edible plants, but because of the sticky coating of tobacco leaves due to the resin in the plant trichomes, it remains on tobacco. This dust born radiation is inhaled and builds up in the lungs. You got a filter or process that will eliminate particles as small as .01 microns?

Bottom line is that bodily intake of anything in excess or that is not necessary for survival is usually unhealthy. Risk vs reward. We easily accept the reward, When the risks are unknown or when known, are contrary to our head -strong desire for reward, we revert to rationalization.
In this case, we really have no idea what the risks truly are. It's unlikely we will learn them before any damage is done.

As things currently stand, if I were a younger man with any common sense, I'd quit vaping or I would stop worrying about it.

No offense meant.
Well said sir, well said.
My obsession with PG only extractions and low micron filter stems from wanting better flavor and trying not to have my coils junk up so fast.
 
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