Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco and Tea

[Ian444]

One thing in my favor is that my current total tobacco consumption is approx 1/100th of what it used to be when I smoked (not including liquid nicotine).

I'm now using 1/100 of the tobacco vaping than I did when smoking. It must be healthier. Really? Maybe the extract is so concentrated that it contains a thousand times more of the carcinogenic substances like nitrosamines than when smoking.

It did not occur to me that PG might leach a thousand times more nitrosamines than would be delivered via a cigarette or pipe, are you serious?

I personally make, or only purchase, extracts that are made with filter, CO2, or Steam processes.

Do you make extracts using CO2 or steam processes? An insight into that would be interesting. Are there less nitrosamines from these processes?

I do get your final point, quit vaping or stop worrying, most of us are here because we chose the latter, otherwise we would not be here, I would think. However that doesn't quench the thirst for more knowledge or discussion of things I have little understanding of.

 

[Scotsman6783]

The latest round. 9 jars of hopeful goodness.

 

[Bagazo]

My second post, however, had already moved into the realm of the general uncertainty we face with regard to all flavorings of any kind: "The relevant question here is probably not about absolute purity or lack of harm, but about how much potentially harmful elements are contained in the flavoring, and the likelihood of ill effects based on the amounts inhaled." I wasn't referring to PGA, nor even to PG and VG or other solvents, but to flavorings in general.

Great. All my posts have addressed what I believe to have been an illogical conclusion contained in your original post.

I like Ian444's take on things, "no matter what is in NTE's its 99% better than what we were inhaling before" and papabogart's "choose your poison".

 

[billherbst]

Bottom line is that bodily intake of anything in excess or that is not necessary for survival is usually unhealthy. Risk vs reward. We easily accept the reward, When the risks are unknown or when known, are contrary to our head -strong desire for reward, we revert to rationalization.
In this case, we really have no idea what the risks truly are. It's unlikely we will learn them before any damage is done.

As things currently stand, if I were a younger man with any common sense, I'd quit vaping or I would stop worrying about it.

No offense meant.

No offense taken, papa.

I have no problem with anything you wrote in your post. In fact, I have days---many of them---when I'm right there with you, when I'm entirely comfortable with my vaping hobby/obsession. On those days, my decision to vape, compared to the risks of smoking, seems savvy and fortunate. I doubt that vaping is likely to kill me, and it provides me with much more pleasure than smoking ever did. Could it be considered self-medication? Perhaps, but so what?

On the other hand, the health concerns about vaping are going to remain a hot topic, both in the vaping community and throughout the larger world beyond---worlds of commerce, public opinion, and government intervention/regulation. Is there one chance in a thousand that health concerns will not be an ongoing issue for vaping in general? Nope, it's guaranteed, given the world in which we live.

I have days when those health concerns about vaping, and the million unanswered questions that go with them, move front and center and grab my attention. I had one of those days yesterday, and my posts reflected it. Today I may not care at all. Today I might find myself once again a happy-go-lucky vaper, pleased as punch to have found, if not a cure, at least a better substitute for my decades-long smoking addiction, and relatively unconcerned about the risks, whether known or unknown. I had a long and dysfunctional passionate affair with smoking, but I never liked it. I didn't need anyone to tell me that that smoking was harmful to my health---that was obvious. By contrast, I like vaping, and my health---at least to the degree that my first-hand experience of it counts for something---is definitely and significantly improved since I stopped smoking four years ago and began vaping. Even if long-term risks exist, I doubt that they are as severe as the risks associated with smoking.

As with so many things, I don't embrace only a single stance or perspective. I have many different stances, often conflicting; they wax and wane, swirl and dance. What I care about and how I care about it depends on what day you ask me. C'est la vie.

 

[papabogart]

Great post Bill.

Although Bill summed it up, I feel a need to reply to Ian.

It did not occur to me that PG might leach a thousand times more nitrosamines than would be delivered via a cigarette or pipe, are you serious?

My research skills are far from infallible, but I've never found anything regarding that issue and when I stop to think about it, for good reason--too many variables. It could be a thousand times less, does common sense make that more likely?. That would make vaping easier to rationalize.

Do you make extracts using CO2 or steam processes? An insight into that would be interesting. Are there less nitrosamines from these processes?.

That statement was intended to be a continuation of the litterary device employed. It was poorly written.
I am just returning to DIY. Although my first attempts were disappointing due to the poor quality of the tobacco used, I could appreciate the promise they held. I have only done hot and cold macerations. I have budgeted sufficient funds to make steam distillation, vacuum distillation, fractional column, and pressure/vacuum filtration equipment possible. CO2 equipment is not, but fortunately for my purse, I don't care much for the CO2 extractions that I've tasted. I have found a variation on CO2 extraction and have already acquired the equipment for it. Based on MY research, I'm have concluded that there is little advantage to steam distillation (or CO2, even if that was a financial possibility) vs a simple macerated extraction for MY purposes. I like to think that I'm no fool. so despite the dearth of information regarding safety and health, I'm employing methods that may possibly improve safety while still delivering an acceptable vape.

I do get your final point, quit vaping or stop worrying, most of us are here because we chose the latter, otherwise we would not be here, I would think. However that doesn't quench the thirst for more knowledge or discussion of things I have little understanding of.

I hope I'm not leaving the impression that we should not be concerned about safety. Given the CURRENT state of research regarding the safety aspects of vaping, it is rational to conclude vaping is not safe. Currently, as a vaper, that is a probability I need to accept or I need to quit. No amount of rationalization is going to reduce that very likely probability. If and when studies become available, my risk/reward evaluation will likely change. For instance, if a study arises that the CO2 method I plan to employ results in a significant increase in nitrosamine production due to some interaction between the O2 and the N in the tobacco, then I expect to re-evaluate and either find an alternative extraction method, and if none, quit or accept the risk.

Let's take a look at the salient issues that prompted my posting in the first place.

Bill brought up possible issues with the use of PGA as a solvent. Bill has decided to no longer use PGA due to those concerns. I have come to the same conclusion regarding the use of PGA. Even though the additional nitrosamines contributed by using PGA are possibly a spit in the ocean compared to the amount we are extracting from the tobacco, if you are getting an acceptable extract without using PGA, why increase the risk in the risk/reward equation? If we could only get an acceptable extract by employing PGA, then I'd have to either quit or accept the additional risk.

clnire's post regarding the dangers of inhaling organic mater is another very real risk in the old risk/reward equation. I've experienced pneumonia caused by aspiating food matter. Hopefully, our use of fine filtration, in some way reduces that risk. It's unlikely that we can filter out all of the organic matter without producing a tasteless extract. But maybe we can. Pneumonia is dangers as all get out, but that's a risk I accept.

So what was my point? In my opinion, vaping is not safe (period) and no amount of rationalization is going to change my opinion. However, until studies regarding safety appear, I'll be leaning heavily on rationalization and do my best to reduce the risks or just accept them.

 

[Bagazo]

Even though the additional nitrosamines contributed by using PGA are possibly a spit in the ocean compared to the amount we are extracting from the tobacco, if you are getting an acceptable extract without using PGA, why increase the risk in the risk/reward equation?

What makes you think there is a difference?

 

[papabogart]

What makes you think there is a difference?

A difference in nitrosamine content between using a straight pg/vg vs a PGA/vg/pg solvent?

Just a deduction based on some articles I have read that have stated that alcohol contains nitrosamines. Same way I would conclude that coffee brewed using Mountain DEW instead of water would likely have a higher caffeine content than coffee brewed with water. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the articles as to whether alcohol actually contains nitrsamines or if they have taken liberties in describing some catalyst or compounds in alcohol that produce nitrosamines once ingested or when in contact with an organic substance like tobacco.

or

A flavor difference between PGA and non-PGA extracts?

I can only say that the extracts I've bought that use PGA for extraction (I'm guessing based on the smell) didn't knock me over as a special vape. I've been very satisfied with the taste of non-PGA extracts.

Were either of those the "difference" you were asking about?

 

[Bagazo]

The TS in TSNA stands for tobacco specific. So whatever nitrosamines PGA adds to the mix are not the ones linking tobacco to cancer.

Flavor is a matter of opinion.

 

[papabogart]

The TS in TSNA stands for tobacco specific. So whatever nitrosamines PGA adds to the mix are not the ones linking tobacco to cancer.

Flavor is a matter of opinion.

I'm not following you. Are you saying only TSNAs are a possible agent of cancer? That all other nitrosamines are safe? Alcohol has been linked to increased rates of oral and esophageal (among other organs) cancer with alcohol related nitrosamines being suspected.

I totally agree taste is subjective, As I said,I get a good tasting juice without using PGA, so I'm not inclined to use PGA given the possible increased risk, if any. ymmv.

 

[Bagazo]

I'm saying that the TSNAs reported in the study I linked are from the tobacco and it doesn't matter what you pull them out with.

 

[papabogart]

Of course TSNAs are from tobacco, they wouldn't be called TSNAs otherwise. Did the study you linked to compare the amount of TSNAs pulled by PGA to those pulled by PG or VG or Water or CO2 or Butane? Did the study compare the TOTAL suspected cancer causing nitrosamines (in addition to TSNAs) pulled with PGA and those in extracts pulled using other solvents? I didn't see any such indication in that abstract and I know of no study that has.

 

[Bagazo]

Of course TSNAs are from tobacco, they wouldn't be called TSNAs otherwise.

That was my point.

Did the study you linked to compare the amount of TSNAs pulled by PGA to those pulled by PG or VG or Water or CO2 or Butane? Did the study compare the TOTAL suspected cancer causing nitrosamines (in addition to TSNAs) pulled with PGA and those in extracts pulled using other solvents? I didn't see any such indication in that abstract and I know of no study that has.

No. Do you have any info that indicates that PG or VG are not pulling TSNAs from tobacco?

 

[papabogart]

That was my point.


No. Do you have any info that indicates that PG or VG are not pulling TSNAs from tobacco?

What makes you think that I have been saying that they don't?

 

[Bagazo]

What makes you think that I have been saying that they don't?

Bill mentioned a study that showed TSNA in an alcohol extract and seemed to imply that the PGA is the reason.

Here's something

MS TSNA deliveries were determined for cigarettes made from a water-extracted burley and a 95%-ethanoL-extracted burley. NNN and NAT deliveries were reduced by 60 - 80% .

 

[Ian444]

That document is rather interesting! Wish I was a chemist right now to decipher it, but doing a search on "R D Kinser condensate study" has opened up some gates for me, thats for sure, thanks Bagazo! I feel a new thread might be a better way to handle this topic (if its going to generate lots of comment) to save this thread for extraction techniques using a slow cooker...just an idea.

 

[papabogart]

That document is rather interesting! Wish I was a chemist right now to decipher it, but doing a search on "R D Kinser condensate study" has opened up some gates for me, thats for sure, thanks Bagazo! I feel a new thread might be a better way to handle this topic (if its going to generate lots of comment) to save this thread for extraction techniques using a slow cooker...just an idea.

Well, Bag's seems to have been the one responsible for the thread taking this turn.

Bags, would you be willing to "cut and paste" or "quote" the last 15 or so posts and start a new thread somewhere in the tobacco extraction forum with a title you think appropriate?

 

[Bagazo]

I was just responding to Bills post about that study that he saw because I think he came to a wrong conclusion.

Basic chemistry says that polar solvents dissolve polar compounds. As you can see in the document that I linked, plain water leeched over 50% of the TSNAs in that tobacco. It stands to reason that other polar solvents will also do the same even if to a lesser or greater degree.

If the leeching of TSNAs by PGA is a valid concern for those using slow cooker extraction, shouldn't they also be concerned about the use of other solvents?

 

[papabogart]

I was just responding to Bills post about that study that he saw because I think he came to a wrong conclusion.

Basic chemistry says that polar solvents dissolve polar compounds. As you can see in the document that I linked, plain water leeched over 50% of the TSNAs in that tobacco. It stands to reason that other polar solvents will also do the same even if to a lesser or greater degree.

If the leeching of TSNAs by PGA is a valid concern for those using slow cooker extraction, shouldn't they also be concerned about the use of other solvents?

Yes.

But as Ian points out we should move this discussion as: 1: the issue is not specific only to extractions using heat. and 2. this thread is for techniques of extraction using heat, not for long, in depth discussions on safety.
As I said, personally, I vape NETs because I want the taste of real tobacco, I, and I'm assuming most, realize that extracting and using tobacco liquids carries some significant risks. I see no problem with stating that there may be a safety issue, but I think long off topic discussions that are tangentally related to a thread and likely to derail a thread should be avoided. I've got more to say on this solvent/TSNA issue, but not here. If you open a new thread, I will follow it and contribute if I have something to say.

 

[Bagazo]

2. this thread is for techniques of extraction using heat, not for long, in depth discussions on safety.

It wasn't meant to be an in depth discussion on safety. It was just a response to someone elses coment on safety.

I'm reluctant to start a thread because there isn't much to say.

 

[Scotsman6783]

Moving back to the true nature of the thread, i got feed back from the mixer i sent my extracts off to. He was blown away.
He used them in a combination with artificial flavors. Said he was only using 5% of my extract so it came out in the stong side. This reinforces my findings that running my extract through a 2.5 micron filter did not mute flavor. It also seems that , according to my mixer, it helps keep the coil build up down. I have purchased from a independent vendor who has a simple site and a facebook presence. His juices junk coils up after just 12 hours of use.
The mixer i shared with is sending me back some mixed juices using my extracts and recipe to recreate what he did. Additionaly, he sent some mixed juices off to an interested party that may have some ties with video juice reviewers.
Im not a glory hound in any real way, but i cant help but feel pride that my extract was well recieved and is in a mix that may be reviewed.