So when do we get 100/200/300 MG liquids? (since the absorbion rate is so low?)

[DC2]

Well, if we are looking for anecdotal evidence, then I used to smoke about 5 Camel Light cigarettes per day for about 25 years. And when I first started using electronic cigarettes, I started at 18mg and found it to be a bit much for me. Then I dropped down to 11mg and liked that just fine. Then I dropped down to 6mg and firmly believe that I was a bit jittery and unsatisfied for awhile, but pushed through it and seem to be fine now.

Of course when I started with 18mg I was also struggling with automatic batteries and was probably getting lightheaded from sucking so much and so hard without getting any vapor most of the time.

And also you have to consider that when I dropped down to 6mg I just happened to be experiencing an inordinate amount of stress at work and with health issues of other members in my family.

So yeah, who the hell knows.

 

[sio2]

I thought I'd post this link to a nova page which talks about how nicotine is absorbed from smoking.
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cigarette/nicotine_nfp.html

sorry I can't post the actual link, but copy paste. . .

I doubt any of us need a 100 mg e-juice. The satisfaction missing could be a number of different things, although I think two clearly stand out for me. The fact that using a cigarette allows the nicotine to hit your CNS in about 10 seconds, I'm not sure how long it takes an e-cig to hit but to me it feels much, much slower. Also there is no MAO component of an e-cig. So no calming effect. My guess is that it is either of those which are needed.

 

[Kate51]

I thought I'd post this link to a nova page which talks about how nicotine is absorbed from smoking.
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cigarette/nicotine_nfp.html

sorry I can't post the actual link, but copy paste. . .

I doubt any of us need a 100 mg e-juice. The satisfaction missing could be a number of different things, although I think two clearly stand out for me. The fact that using a cigarette allows the nicotine to hit your CNS in about 10 seconds, I'm not sure how long it takes an e-cig to hit but to me it feels much, much slower. Also there is no MAO component of an e-cig. So no calming effect. My guess is that it is either of those which are needed.

Here is the link:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/cigarette/nicotine_nfp.html

sio2 welcome! This is strictly theory and very interesting reading! But I have seen it written about before, no feasible tests published that I can find, perhaps there are some available by subscription, I can't financially do that. I probably wouldn't be able to cipher them anyway, I have no formal training in chemistry or medicine. However, the theory is that it is the nicotine that causes us to be addicted to the substance it's in, it is the "carrier" or the "linker"; the components of a tobacco cigarettes would sort of bear that theory, because the components are so gross. But the nicotine itself is unpalatable. So well may be that a 'smoker' may adjust very quickly from the effects of the tobacco to the effects of the 'juice' in an e-cig cart. I stopped smoking from day one, as many others have, and I was a heavy smoker 2-3 packs of light 100's per day, RYO/Golden Harvest 'light' tobacco. Is it constituted tobacco? Looks like nicely shredded tobacco leaves, but who knows. Has a wonderful fragrance and nice moisture. I still prefer a mild 'tobacco' flavored juice, with natural tobacco absolute. I have just FYI, recently adruptly changed my nic level from 24mg/ml down to 18mg/ml, with no obvious effect whatsoever. I am still perfectly content with that. Perhaps will do another cut in a couple months. I would like to go down to a 12 or 9mg/ml, an effort to 'do no harm'. I feel strongly that I would rather be addicted to e-juice than to a tobacco cigarette! Or more precisely, the vapor.
For GreySaber's question about what the effect of ph in our system, the little physical difference in a ph of say 4.5 to 7.5 or 8 would simply be a matter of a little more sodium, which is not harmful, possibly more drying. That is the ph of seawater. Would that be enough of a difference for larger nic absorbtion, not sure, but a 3 point difference could be significant. A person would do well on a more alkaline less acidic body ph. Anything past that value would be hard to achieve because it would be much less palatable possibly. However, VG especially and PG are sweet tasting fluids so may make that opinion moot. My humble opinion!

 

[KreeL]

His point A is clearly not "pwned" because you haven't been comprehending this thread at all. His basic argument is that there are a lot of people out there who are not getting enough nicotine with the current liquids and devices. Yes, a lot of people have been getting enough and it is enough to curb their cravings but there are also people where even the 36/48 mg liquid doesn't do **** to them. These are the people this thread is catered to.

What exactly is his problem? What? He hasn't shown any aggression and his posts aren't inflammatory in any way, it seems like you're the one with the "problem".

Also, pwnd? Seriously? What are you, 15?

You're kidding, right? I want to sit across from you and watch you vape 48mg. I was a non-lights chainsmoker for 36 years and 36mg. perfectly replaced my smoking habit. In fact I don't vape near as much as I used to smoke. If you're not getting enough nicotine at the nic levels we have available right now, you're not vaping correctly. See Trog's post above.

Yet another absurd thread.

 

[dperino]

just to ad my dose centavos. i don't think i've given it enough time to make a determination as to what may be a correct dosage. vaping on a 510 is sometimes great, that is when everything is jelling like it should. but that doesn't happen as often as i would like so maybe kreel is right when saying there's a correct way of vaping. but then again, because the 510 battery sucks, my experience with the pv is sorta like it builds up, hits great for a bit, and then goes back down. in my world, this sucks.

so, two things come to mind. i obviously need a passthrough so that i stand a better chance at a consistent vaping experience. this would be beneficial because then i'd be able to determine if 36 mg is good enough, or if i do need to go higher as some are suggesting here. or maybe the opposite would happen, maybe go lower?

secondly, i have got to get a pv with a stronger, longer lasting battery. perhaps with the higher voltage and increase in vapor production/throat hit, i wouldn't be sucking on the pv as much as i do now.

presently, i'm not getting what i need that's for sure. but i don't necessarily want to increase the mg without first trying other pv's, accessories and juice. not to mention the iolite

 

[EdensDaddy]

Just speaking from my own personal experience as we all do. I smoked Marlboro lights for nearly 20 years and 15 of them at a pack and a half a day. I have no idea how much nicotine I consumed then or even now since starting vaping. I started with Ruyan #4 at 24mg and have barely dented my 30ml bottle after 10 days. I Vape around 1 ml a day or 20 drops give or take. I seem to actually vape LESS! I contribute a lot of this to the fact that when I was smoking I felt "done" with the cigarette long before finishing it. In the end, I would usually finish the cigarette anyway. No sense in wasting good money right? Now, with my PV I just puff puff put it in my desk... Kinda wierd that the transition from going outside to smoke to coming inside to vape was seemless. I am going to drop down to 18mg next bottle and see where it goes from there. Eventually I plan to be off nicotine altogether.

 

[markarich159]

Easy now! Got you to pay attention though didn't it? (And it's kinda like saying no offence to allow you to talk down to people instead of just explaining something in a friendly fashion.)

Now, let's both get back to being nice.

But you're quite right. We need more information. This whole study is out there somewhere, and we need to find it.

Now, for sake of arguement, have you got the Tmax and Cmax scores for the nicotrol inhaler from other clinical trials? There's a number of questions right there.

No problem, I did not mean to be condescending, I apologize. Afetr a quick search I found the following from www.drugs.com on 1 particular clinical trial. I will Paste below::::

The temperature dependency of nicotine release from the Nicotrol Inhaler was studied between 68°F and 104°F in eighteen patients. Average achievable steady state plasma levels after 20 minutes of an intensive inhalation regimen each hour at ambient room temperature are on the order of 23 ng/mL. The corresponding nicotine plasma levels achievable at 86°F and 104°F are on the order of 30 and 34 ng/mL. Nicotine peak plasma concentration (Cmax) at steady-state, after 20 minutes of an intensive inhalation regimen per hour, for 10 hours.

Temp 68 degree F 86 degree F 104 degree F
Cmax(min)ng/ml 11.1 17.6 24.1
Cmax(max)ng/ml 40.4 47.2 48.6
Cmax(avg)ng/ml 22.5 29.7 34.0


I would say a whopping difference from the New Zealand trial. However, this study explains that the methodology was to have the patients acheive steady state plasma levels(which is what any normal smoker would do- not just take 1 puff and stop). The article also states that Plasma concentrationas after 1 puff from nicotrol inhaler averaged about 6 ng/ml(3 times the level stated in the New Zealand study).

 

[GreySaber]

No problem, I did not mean to be condescending, I apologize. Afetr a quick search I found the following from www.drugs.com on 1 particular clinical trial. I will Paste below::::

That's quite interisting. We need to get more information on the New Zealand study. We're missing something important. I'm going to really hunt for the study later, but I'm expecting a busy week. If anyone else can find it sooner, that would be fantastic.

 

[GreySaber]

Gents, in the interist of getting more information, I have written to Dr. Glover, mentioned in the study by the University of Auckland.

Hopefully Doctor Glover will be so good as to enlighten us on the study.

 

[xKrazYx]

Double post.

 

[xKrazYx]

You're kidding, right? I want to sit across from you and watch you vape 48mg. I was a non-lights chainsmoker for 36 years and 36mg. perfectly replaced my smoking habit. In fact I don't vape near as much as I used to smoke. If you're not getting enough nicotine at the nic levels we have available right now, you're not vaping correctly. See Trog's post above.

Yet another absurd thread.

I switch off between 36mg and 48mg, and i'm pretty sure i'm vaping correctly. I feel a SLIGHT buzz for the first couple of hits, then nothing. I get a throat hit, sure, but no head buzz, no nothing.

I haven't even smoked that much, I used to smoke maybe 4 cigarettes a week for half a year, I just like vaping because of the flavors and because I can do it while i'm on the computer.

Everyone reacts to everything differently, so while someone could be satisfied with 18mg juice, some people would need more.

I remember when 36mg was just coming out and people were reacting the exact same way you are now.

 

[Lashes]

And lashes said, "let this thread be resurected!"

And it was so...


so.... whats going on with this? Anyone ever figure out whats the deal with the PH levels and if higher ones would give me a buzz?

 

[exogenesis]

Stubby, you can get ph strips at pharmacy or a pet store (used for aquarium water) those will work fine, I had some medical ones but they are all the same. I measured my JC juices, were all in the 4.5 - 6 range. I think the HIGHER the ph the harsher the 'hit', (better nic absorbtion) There are electronic PH meters as well, pricey. If your body is acidic, you are also prone to catching more bugs, germs, viruses. Alkaline healthier.
Arg! Have a chart. can't get it uploaded, server busy will try again.
A link for ph levels/nicotine absorbtion:
View attachment 3327
I wouldn't recommend putting oven cleaner in your juice, please. Don't know what the treatment would be to raise the ph in your juice. Some juices do list sodium in their ingredient lists. But would definitley try to raise ph before I raise nicotine levels, just me.

Since this has been resurrected

Turns out that most juices have totally free-base form nicotine
except some with added organic acids (as 'stabiliser' ?)

A pH measurement of straight juice might be 6, 7 or even 8,
but if you dilute it (say 1 in 4) in water the pH shoots up to pH9+,
showing that the nicotine is (at least) mostly free-base.

The reason a meter or pH strip reads low for the neat juice is to
do with the fact there's little ionisation going on & the strip/meter just read 'wrong'.

I should think out resident chemistry expert DVap could verify that.


btw where's that chart Kate ?

Also just come to light from DVap is the fact that acid (salt form) nicotine
may well vapourise as well as free-base at <220'C
(what's the atty-coil temp?)
that doesn't speak to body adsorption rate vs pH, but
if it's free-base anyway the only thing stopping a 'quick adsorption'
may well be the presence of PG, or possibly the large PG micro-droplet
size (compared to smoke particles).

 

[whistlrr]

Interesting thread. There is a different approach to the whole idea of nicotine absorption that hasn't been explored.

From what I have read the nicotine in e-cigs is mostly absorbed through the mouth and throat (mucus membrane) rather then the lungs as cigarettes are. This is much more like a pipe then a cigarette. If you really want to up the nicotine absorption a much easier way to do it, rather then raising the nicotine levels to absurd levels, is to raise the ph level of the liquid. That should noticeable bring up the nicotine absorption.

In case anyone is interested pipe tobacco has a high ph level, along with Swedish snus. That's what makes them such effective nicotine delivery systems.

I'll make a guess and say that you really need at least 3x to 4x better absorption to really be effective. You can always cut your nicotine levels if need be, or just vap a whole lot less.

Does anyone even know what the ph of e-juice is?

I've only read up to page 4 of this thread so far (where I found this great comment and had to respond)

Yes! You've got it

its not psychological -- the only way I can stop compulsively screwing with the e-cig (which is currently an 801 on a passthrough with 24mg JC Orignal I need to use up) and/or jamming enough nasal snuff up my nose that I could probably plant a garden in my nose is to stuff a swedish snus in my mouth.

and I'm really really surprised I don't see anyone else talking about the 'nose hit' aspect of E-cigs

I've never been able to consistantly or satisfactorily 'smoke' any of my E-cigs like I did cigarettes -- and thats ultimately sending the smoke/vape out my nose

I can sort of get half satisfaction from the e-cig if I 'french inhale' it (something that drove me nuts to try to do with analogs but absolutely have to do at a bare minimum if I want to get much of anything off these e-cigs at all) and truthfully?

Yes, sometimes I actually jam my e-cig right up to my nose and inhale directly into my nose from it (I've taken the tip of a vick's type nasal inhaler to hold over the mouthpiece especially of the penstyle inorder to do this) and to me that's the most cigarette-like effect

and I really believe that for most things the nasal mucous membranes are generally considered to be more receptive or better or whatever than your mouth (with perhaps the possible exception of the spot directly under your tongue)/

I've been tempted to start a thread asking for modder's advice/ideas on a way I can adapt my e-cigs so it only takes one hand to 'snort' my e-cig (since it still takes either both hands, one to hold my other nostril shut and the other to hold the e-cig or some major contorting if I want to swap nostrils)

call me crazy if you want (wouldn't be the first time in my life lol) but I've also considered advising asking others on here to maybe try the direct to the nose method

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense since we didn't snort our cigarettes but so help me its the nearest effect to having just taken an honest puff off a cigarette that I've found

Even with this I still need the snus as the real and steady source of nicotine. I really don't think I could be off the analogs if it weren't for the snus (with one in I still hit the snuff and e cig but its not so insanely so and is is the only time I can get enough to feel satisfied enough and leave the e-cig and nasal bullets resting on my desk for any breaks/any length of time).

Now I'll go on and read more of the thread.

 

[CrazyTerrie11]

I've only read up to page 4 of this thread so far (where I found this great comment and had to respond)

Yes! You've got it

its not psychological -- the only way I can stop compulsively screwing with the e-cig (which is currently an 801 on a passthrough with 24mg JC Orignal I need to use up) and/or jamming enough nasal snuff up my nose that I could probably plant a garden in my nose is to stuff a swedish snus in my mouth.

and I'm really really surprised I don't see anyone else talking about the 'nose hit' aspect of E-cigs

I've never been able to consistantly or satisfactorily 'smoke' any of my E-cigs like I did cigarettes -- and thats ultimately sending the smoke/vape out my nose

I can sort of get half satisfaction from the e-cig if I 'french inhale' it (something that drove me nuts to try to do with analogs but absolutely have to do at a bare minimum if I want to get much of anything off these e-cigs at all) and truthfully?

Yes, sometimes I actually jam my e-cig right up to my nose and inhale directly into my nose from it (I've taken the tip of a vick's type nasal inhaler to hold over the mouthpiece especially of the penstyle inorder to do this) and to me that's the most cigarette-like effect

and I really believe that for most things the nasal mucous membranes are generally considered to be more receptive or better or whatever than your mouth (with perhaps the possible exception of the spot directly under your tongue)/

I've been tempted to start a thread asking for modder's advice/ideas on a way I can adapt my e-cigs so it only takes one hand to 'snort' my e-cig (since it still takes either both hands, one to hold my other nostril shut and the other to hold the e-cig or some major contorting if I want to swap nostrils)

call me crazy if you want (wouldn't be the first time in my life lol) but I've also considered advising asking others on here to maybe try the direct to the nose method

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense since we didn't snort our cigarettes but so help me its the nearest effect to having just taken an honest puff off a cigarette that I've found

Even with this I still need the snus as the real and steady source of nicotine. I really don't think I could be off the analogs if it weren't for the snus (with one in I still hit the snuff and e cig but its not so insanely so and is is the only time I can get enough to feel satisfied enough and leave the e-cig and nasal bullets resting on my desk for any breaks/any length of time).

Now I'll go on and read more of the thread.

WOW...to each his own they say. That would kill me in no time.

 

[mudmanc4]

I put the analogs down within 2 days of the e-cig, started with JC trial kit, I dunno what mg it is, but it must be low because it didn't really satisfy. I went on to RY4 11 mg from litecig, that was nice, I have some RY424 mg, and I think I'll cut it tomorrow, knowing that as a smoker, there's an addictive nature there, and there's no need to keep going up, that defeats the purpose here, at least to me it does. Don't get me wrong, the e-cig is a great thing.

My thoughts on this thread is something i haven't read yet , thats the fact that in analogs there is another element , another chemical, something much more addictive then nicotine I dunno what it is, I don't know if I really want to. Maybe it's the way they mix it all up, ferment it, then add whatever they add to keep you sucking on it time and again, and dry it out, cut it up to lok like tobacco, when it's nothing of the sort.

Around 4 months ago, I went to smokes called american spirit, they do not have whatever that other chemical is in them. It was a hard switch, but I really wanted to get off the whole analog thing, bad, so I did it. A week or two into the american spirits, I was out, and bummed from someone a marlboro, the thing tore me up ! One , maybe two hits, and I was out there. There's something else in there, I always felt that.

In Aruba you can get marlboros , the crap isn't in those ones either, I know because I grabbed a five carton pack at customs on the way out. As well as smoked while I was there.

I'm just saying, I believe that analogs introduce different levels of different chemicals in different areas. So we all have been accustomed to something different, as well as experimental procedures on greater addictions though analogs. Just my thoughts.

 

[whistlrr]

You're kidding, right? I want to sit across from you and watch you vape 48mg. I was a non-lights chainsmoker for 36 years and 36mg. perfectly replaced my smoking habit. In fact I don't vape near as much as I used to smoke. If you're not getting enough nicotine at the nic levels we have available right now, you're not vaping correctly. See Trog's post above.

Yet another absurd thread.

I haven't gone back and found a post from trog outlining correct vaping technique just yet (musta missed that one on my first read)

Any of you who are getting what you need from vaping care to post videos and details on how you're vaping?

Seriously.

I have in fact considered and wondered about differences in how we vape (along with possibly maybe some people's mouths just can absorb more nicotine than others, there are even diseases such as 'pernicious anemia' that cause some people trouble with absorbing things like b12 in their mouths so I'm thinking natural differences here are possible)

I apparently am one who needed the lung/nose accessing aspect of smoking (and now still needs it with vaping).. my natural inclination was/is to try to go at this like its a cigarette -- not a cigar or a pipe (which as a former cigarette smoker the pipe/cigar method is not satisfying to me including with actual analog cigars and pipes, just mouth smoking/vaping alone for me is not enough -- I must have lung/nasal involvement) -- clearly somethings not right if I sometimes literally have to jam the thing up to my nose and inhale from it that way just to be sure of getting some satisfaction

but still, because while the comment looked like it was maybe meant to be a 'snarky' one you might just actually be onto something:

lets have it broken down, just in case..


who's 'vaping right' and getting their nicotine fulfillment, will you demonstrate for those of us who aren't getting it and are potentially 'vaping wrong'?

 

[whistlrr]

[...'the fact that in analogs there is another element , another chemical, something much more addictive then nicotine [...]

I've considered that too and do believe this to be true:

I smoked MYO (make your own, with a maker and tubes) of "Gambler Light" tobacco -- with the exception of once a month for a treat (while on the way to a once a month appointment) I stopped to get one back of Marlboro 100's ("red" or regular) in a soft pack and its not just because Gambler was "light" and Marlboro wasn't.. something else even between these two tobaccos (I believe even regular bagged RYO tobacco has less secret high powered crap in it than 'storebought' cigarettes, never tried American Spirit but I'm sure it would be a bigger difference than the RYO loose tobacco)

Marlboros were definately different, harsher... and made me want more Marlboros (I can't afford that on a regular basis thats why it was a once a month treat to have one pack) but I knew the difference and clearly something's added, my friend who still smokes the exact same, gambler lights MYO and also got a pack at the same time I did once a month felt the exact same thing -- in fact it was him who mentioned it first but we both felt it.

However, none of this speaks to the fact that in spite of this somehow some people are managing to override the 'special secret sauce' highpowered addictive additives provided by 'storebought' prepackaged..

I still think there may be something to aspects of vaping technique and that maybe some people are just more mouth mucous receptive than others

Some of us apparently got more addicted to smoking by way of our noses and lungs, while others apparently were doing fine mostly just by mouth, and I think that's being really reflected now in our vaping experiences.

That's my current best guess, and we really need workarounds for this for some of us.

 

[Dirtybutts]

It's interesting for the actual nicotine concentrations, but I didn't need a study to tell me I get but a small fraction of the nicotine from an e-cig drag as I do from an analog. If I smoked as much as I vaped I'd be sick as a dog. I vape 24mg.

Is there anyone on here who smoked at least a pack a day that has gotten a buzz of an e-cig after switching?

I smoked 1-1 1/2 packs a day of Marlboro mediums before I started vaping. When I started out using 18mg liquid I got nothin..Moved up to 24mg and bam it hit me my 1st e-cig buzz..I am hitting it less than the 18mg now though and I have since learned not to buzz on the 24mg!

 

[mudmanc4]

Considering the fact that I am hyper sensitive to the "place unknown chemical here" that is hold up within major brand name analogs, for instance, I had several surgeries on my right arm and hand in the past 6 months, and i was on narcotics, so when the two ( analogs + narcs ) = sick feeling, and alcohol + analogs = same sick feeling ) but, no narcs, no alcohol = no problem with analogs. And no analogs + no narcs = ok vaping, or narc + vaping = no problem. Now, the American spirits + whatever = no problem tells me there's something "extra" in the most widely smokes analogs. Anyhow.

The way i have learned to "get what I need" from vaping, is to keep it wet, 1-2 second preheat, slow draw (mouth draw) listening for a "gurgle" to produce the right vapor, then inhaling and repeat until I have that feel that I want , then set it down.