Agreed. There used to be vapers AA forum. What happened to it?
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Agreed. There used to be vapers AA forum. What happened to it?
Actually its producing more conversation than I had hoped for so I'm pretty happy with it so far. & you Outsider regulars are creating a pretty interesting start to my thread for anyone thats in recovery. & the philosophical question of what sobriety is seems fitting enough. & I think the Outside may be the right spot. Either here, or Health and Wellness, we'll see where the moderators want it.
I want to welcome Keithu2 to the group. Please come back and check in man. 1989 huh? Good man. I've been technically clean from my DOC for 4 months now. I'm currently in sub treatment and finally doing well after two years of bull....ting my crooked doctor. Yesterday was the 1st screw up I've had in 4 months. I cleaned the house and found something. I needed to talk to someone but I've got no one to talk to. It was 8am, everyone was asleep. I spent an hour and a half contemplating flushing it.
So I made this thread. Your all welcome here. Every single one of you. Outsiders. Recovering addicts, struggling addicts, anyone that needs or wants to talk to others that have gone through it or are going through it.
I want to welcome Keithu2 to the group. Please come back and check in man. 1989 huh? Good man. I've been technically clean from my DOC for 4 months now. I'm currently in sub treatment and finally doing well after two years of bull....ting my crooked doctor. Yesterday was the 1st screw up I've had in 4 months. I cleaned the house and found something. I needed to talk to someone but I've got no one to talk to. It was 8am, everyone was asleep. I spent an hour and a half contemplating flushing it.
So I made this thread. Your all welcome here. Every single one of you. Outsiders. Recovering addicts, struggling addicts, anyone that needs or wants to talk to others that have gone through it or are going through it.
Nicotine is highly addictive, so there is obviously some impairment from it's use. It isn't the same as alcohol or other drugs, but it still affects brain chemistry, health (to a degree), and the behavior of the person addicted. Those of us who are used to consuming it regularly don't necessarily notice the "high", but we certainly notice the withdrawal symptoms.
In addiction circles, 'sobriety' tends to mean complete abstention from the substance the person is addicted to. For example, an alcoholic can't have one or two drinks even if their function is not impaired and still be considered 'sober'.
Obviously, the OP isn't referring to nicotine addiction, which is fine and good. It is almost certainly the lesser of the evils. Surf is correct in stating that unless someone is free of all addictive substances, they aren't completely sober. They may be sober from alcohol or drugs, and that itself is an admirable accomplishment. Yes, it may be splitting hairs, but Surf is technically correct.
With that said, congratulations and best wishes to all who have achieved sobriety- no matter the substance involved.
Actually surf is claiming that e-cigs are intoxicating and I don't think anyone would claim they are. Addictive yes a drug yes but not an intoxicant.
- You have to admire SM's consistency - He will debate literally ANYTHING - Whether it needs to be debated or not -
He's always technically correct - That is indeed how hairs are split -
Brain chemistry is altered by nicotine - So technically - He is correct - Yes -
Totally POINTLESS for the purposes intended by the OP, of course, but technically correct none the less -
^^^ Golden -
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I also made this thread because I know that quitting cigarettes by switching to vapor when your sick can be hard. Since our vapor lacks the many natural alkaloids in tobacco, including harmine, the MOAI that we all once knew and loved, it can actually throw symptoms of withdrawal at us. The nicotine in our vapor has nothing to suppress it's natural stimulative properties, which exasperates and antagonizes the overactive synapses of our brains when we're kicking our habits. I haven't seen any conversation about this phenomenon over ecf so I figure I'd better take a moment to note it in this thread, at least once. I highly recommend utilizing WTA juices if your kicking a physically/mentally addictive substance while simultaneously using e-cigs/APVs. Seriously. Vaping could possibly be the feather that tips your tower. & if I can possibly prevent someone from going through this by writing about it this once, then I'll be happy.
Well then I think the term 'sober' as it relates to recovering addicts is a term that doesn't apply in the literal sense. As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure that when they say 'sober' they mean completely abstaining from whatever substance it is, even if partaking doesn't result in intoxication. It's a semantic difference.
Ever been to a Nicotine Anonymous meeting?
I rub elbows with a lot of AA people. Seems like half of my friends are recovering alcoholics. Our drummer has 26 years sobriety and quit smoking about three years ago because he was worried about how it was affecting his singing voice. He still chews nic gum. In 8 years of working with him playing mostly bars and clubs he has never once expressed to me a desire to drink alcohol and still occasionally attends meetings.
Nicotine addiction seems to be the most difficult to overcome for many in the program. PVs are wonderful and may prove the most effective method yet to ween off nicotine completely for many who "can't quit". I haven't heard any stats on that yet.
I rub elbows with a lot of AA people. Seems like half of my friends are recovering alcoholics. Our drummer has 26 years sobriety and quit smoking about three years ago because he was worried about how it was affecting his singing voice. He still chews nic gum. In 8 years of working with him playing mostly bars and clubs he has never once expressed to me a desire to drink alcohol and still occasionally attends meetings.
Nicotine addiction seems to be the most difficult to overcome for many in the program. PVs are wonderful and may prove the most effective method yet to ween off nicotine completely for many who "can't quit". I haven't heard any stats on that yet.
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I haven't heard much of a downside to the use of nicotine unless one overindulges - increased heart-rate, excessive sweating, nausea, addiction etc.
By many account's it's actually beneficial to brain function.
Nicotine is highly addictive, so there is obviously some impairment from it's use. It isn't the same as alcohol or other drugs, but it still affects brain chemistry, health (to a degree), and the behavior of the person addicted. Those of us who are used to consuming it regularly don't necessarily notice the "high", but we certainly notice the withdrawal symptoms.
In addiction circles, 'sobriety' tends to mean complete abstention from the substance the person is addicted to. For example, an alcoholic can't have one or two drinks even if their function is not impaired and still be considered 'sober'.
Obviously, the OP isn't referring to nicotine addiction, which is fine and good. It is almost certainly the lesser of the evils. Surf is correct in stating that unless someone is free of all addictive substances, they aren't completely sober. They may be sober from alcohol or drugs, and that itself is an admirable accomplishment. Yes, it may be splitting hairs, but Surf is technically correct.
With that said, congratulations and best wishes to all who have achieved sobriety- no matter the substance involved.
Well said.
I'm a little curious about the comment about nicotine not being like the other drugs. What leads you to that conclusion? Nicotine is psychoactive. It crosses the blood brain barrier and causes the user to experience a range of physical and psychological state changes including euphoria. Sounds exactly like every other drug to me.
I know lots of people who have been through "the program." I applaud anyone who shakes addiction and gets life back on track. But I often see a specific "trading behavior" amongst these people. Quit alcohol, trade for the green. Quit the green, trade for caffeine. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's also VERY common for people in the program to get extremely preachy about alcohol and narcotics while consuming appalling amounts of caffeine and nicotine, claiming all the while that they aren't like the "other drugs."
This is, in part, why I made the comment I made. One can not call him or herself "sober" as long as they're consuming mind altering drugs. Nicotine and caffeine are mind altering drugs. We of all people should be critically aware of that fact. I'm not crapping on the thread for fun, I'm pointing out a core contradiction exposed by the subject. Sober vaping? No such thing.
You are absolutely correct here, Surf but I had to chuckle to myself remembering my first encounters with tobacco.
Both of my parents smoked without reservation or restraint constantly at home or in the car or at a restaurant etc.
I suspect I was somewhat addicted before I even began to smoke but I remember it wasn't a pleasant experience at first. Not at all.
It made me sick and dizzy so whatever euphoria might have been experienced was overridden by other factors. I've tried chewing tobacco but only once when I was about 10.
I must have wanted that nicotine awfully bad to continue smoking until I could inhale properly without coughing or getting dizzy. I was properly addicted by then, I'm convinced.
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You're correct in that it's a semantics thing. While I may not be truly sober while vaping or drinking coffee, I can vape until I get physically ill or drink coffee until I get the shakes; but I won't "come to" having to wonder where I've been or what/who I've done. I can't say that about my "drug of choice."
I have yet to hear a story beginning with "man, all I remember was having that last cigarette...."
Sent via the guys that made Star Trek low tech.
Horse is the same. It takes effort to get past the "makes you sick" stage.
Well bassnut, I was speaking about vapor use when in a state of withdrawal. I can explain it if you'd like.
When an addict quits his or her drug of choice, the brain loses the synthetically released endorphins. There is then a point of stagnancy, while the brain accepts the absence of endorphins and slowly begins to learn to manufacture them without the help of exterior substances again. Without the artificial endorphins, and without natural endorphins, the brain does something that is quite uncomfortable. Not only is it handicapped by the absence of endorphin, which causes sprawling acute anxiety attacks and severe depression, the brain sets off an alarm. It literally starts firing randomly in some areas, overcompensating for the complete loss of comfort. Most notably, the part of the brain that controls temperature regulation, involuntary muscle movement, blood pressure, temperature and nerve sensitivity to name a few. This is why withdrawal has been coined "kicking" the habit. Because the addict will often experience severe restless leg syndrome, shaking in the limbs and extremities.
What my friends and I have found, is that the vapor from our e-cigarettes, triggers these physical symptoms of withdrawal, and it can also trigger the mental symptoms. I can firmly state that we have found that nicotine vapor triggers withdrawal symptoms (both during acute withdrawal, & "post acute withdrawal syndrome") much more severely than a tobacco cigarette. We suspect this is because our vapor only contains nicotine and none of the other alkaloids in the tobacco leaf, but we can only speculate.
So my advice is if you are a regular smoker, and you are currently tapering off of a substance, withdrawing from a substance, or still experiencing PAWS in the 2 to 4+ months proceeding a withdrawal period, you may want to wait a bit before jumping strait into vaping. If the vapor does bring out physical or mental symptoms, you may want to stick to cigarettes until you feel more comfortable.
When an addict quits his or her drug of choice, the brain loses the synthetically released endorphins. There is then a point of stagnancy, while the brain accepts the absence of endorphins and slowly begins to learn to manufacture them without the help of exterior substances again. Without the artificial endorphins, and without natural endorphins, the brain does something that is quite uncomfortable. Not only is it handicapped by the absence of endorphin, which causes sprawling acute anxiety attacks and severe depression, the brain sets off an alarm. It literally starts firing randomly in some areas, overcompensating for the complete loss of comfort. Most notably, the part of the brain that controls temperature regulation, involuntary muscle movement, blood pressure, temperature and nerve sensitivity to name a few. This is why withdrawal has been coined "kicking" the habit. Because the addict will often experience severe restless leg syndrome, shaking in the limbs and extremities.
What my friends and I have found, is that the vapor from our e-cigarettes, triggers these physical symptoms of withdrawal, and it can also trigger the mental symptoms. I can firmly state that we have found that nicotine vapor triggers withdrawal symptoms (both during acute withdrawal, & "post acute withdrawal syndrome") much more severely than a tobacco cigarette. We suspect this is because our vapor only contains nicotine and none of the other alkaloids in the tobacco leaf, but we can only speculate.
So my advice is if you are a regular smoker, and you are currently tapering off of a substance, withdrawing from a substance, or still experiencing PAWS in the 2 to 4+ months proceeding a withdrawal period, you may want to wait a bit before jumping strait into vaping. If the vapor does bring out physical or mental symptoms, you may want to stick to cigarettes until you feel more comfortable.
The specific effects of a drug don't disqualify it as a drug. You may not be able to drink enough coffee to black out... but you can't do enough coke to black out either. Blacking out or not blacking out isn't the issue. Different drugs have different actions on the body and brain. If you're consuming caffeine and/or nicotine you are NOT sober by definition and by emperical evidence.
That's a really strange anecdote. Most people report that PV use leads to much less withdrawal symptoms, probably because your body can only absorb a fraction of the amount of nicotine from vapor than it can from smoke.
Both tobacco and vapor can create problems, but what we've found is that the vapor from ecigs is more likely to cause discomfort, and that the discomfort lasts for a longer period of time. Either because of the absence of the other alkaloids present in the tobacco leaf, or because one's vaping session can last longer than a cigarette, or because higher mg juices can build your nicotine level up more than a single cigarette.
I'd really like to get a bottle of WTA juices to see how that does.
I'd really like to get a bottle of WTA juices to see how that does.
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I agree that trying to go cold turkey from two things at once could very well make things worse. For instance I had to quit drinking and smoking. But I gave up drinking first and only after I had a handle on that did I even attempt to give up cigs and go to vaping. I am just about 100% sure that Vaping is not making it worse than if you simply stopped smoking. What I'm saying is that it's not vaping that is causing the problems but lack of everything else that is in Cigarettes, the MAOI inhibitors in particular. Have you or any of your friends tried no vaping instead of going back to cigarettes? If not I don't think you can say it's vaping causing a problem but lack of smoking cigs that is.
Like I said I would bet money that you will see the same problems with vaping as you will with simply not-smoking.
Well, I mean, I mean the effects are immediate.. I'm not saying withdrawing from cigarettes while vaping, will in turn make the withdrawal from other substances worse. What I'm trying to say is a 5 to 10 minute vape session will throw you into physical and mental withdrawal to a degree that feels worse than what a single cigarette will make you feel. In fact, while in PAWS, a cigarette usually won't give you any problems, but vapor most certainly will have a negative effect.
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