Something is needed between "Supplier" and "Member"

[candre23]

I like the fact that ECF puts suppliers through a verification process. I like the fact that they are not allowed to over-promote their shop in every thread or harass members who post less-than glowing reviews. This is as it should be for proper web retailers that are moving a lot of product.

However, there is a category of people who are currently classified as "suppliers" who are being hurt by the system - the artisan mod makers. These are not dedicated suppliers who simply import VPs and accessories for resale. These are the guys who are designing and building mods by hand, more as a hobby than as a business. For them, I feel there should be a separate category that is not so restrictive as the standard "supplier" label.

Cybervex is one of these for sure. His Bartleby mod is one of the most popular among users here, and yet he is not allowed to respond to many of the questions asked about his product. Mrpuff is another. The thread on his hotly anticipated Mr. Puffer mod has been quiet for a while now. As it turns out, he's been posting on another forum because he has been forbidden from posting on ECF about his own mod for weeks, ever since he applied for supplier status.

I know the rules are there for very good reasons. But clearly there are people who are technically selling products that should not have to obey them as-is. These guys can never afford the $40 per month that the retailers pay for sponsor status and their own forum. Perhaps they can be provided something else?

Here is what I propose.

• A new usergroup be created for these garage-mod makers.
• A new subforum be created for questions/comments/discussion of these devices. Not a separate forum for each maker, but a single mod-maker's forum. This would be the place for "promotion" (if you want to call it that) of new mods they are working on, as well as a place for users to bring questions or complaints.
• A separate set of relaxed rules for this group. Makers should be able to respond in any forum to direct questions about their creations. Meaning that if someone asks "What is the best mod?" they can't just jump in with "Mine!", but if someone asks "What type of batteries does the Bartleby use?", the maker should be allowed to answer. They should still be barred from responding in the review forum and sending unsolicited PMs.

These guys are some of the innovators that make this such a fun hobby. You should be encouraging them rather than punishing them for their innovation. What say you, forum administrators? Will you give these guys a fair shake?

 

[Kelemvor]

nice idea.

 

[SudokuGal]

ditto...sounds reasonable

 

[Guineahill]

I like it... a lot!

 

[5cardstud]

Que sera sera. I'm neutral

 

[apocalicious]

yeah my opinion might not count for much cuz of my low post count, but i totally dig this idea. i havent bought a mod yet (eyein up the bartleby) but as i get deeper and deeper into the ecig scene i get more and more interested. maybe you could call the new title "Mod Vendor"?

 

[NatureBoy]

I like this idea.

 

[Elendil]

While a decision like this is made by Angus, Roly, and ultimately SJ the overriding question seems to be where do you draw the line?

What determines a "part-time" hobbyist trying to fill a niche and someone engaging in a full blown "for profit" enterprise. We don't examine the financials of any supplier to my knowledge and I'm not sure the criteria you would use to make that determination in the first place.

Either you are selling ecigs, ecigs supplies, or ecig related products or you are not. Trying to split hairs makes it even more complicated................

 

[Guineahill]

Very true Enendil... Sometimes the practicalities of situations preclude what appear to be desirable resolutions. (How is that for vague!)

While the differences seem obvious in many situations that elusive line would need to be drawn. I, for one, am not entirely sure where the lines are in the current breakdown. If I were to create a dozen box mods and sell them to friends would that make me a supplier? If I offered them for sale in the classifieds would that make a difference? When would my actions threaten my status as a member of ECF? Perhaps this is a question for another thread. I will have to give it some more thought.

 

[Idaho Ron]

That sounds reasonable because as one who makes small wood products, it IS a hobby since theres no real $$$ in it. They should be clasified as Artists not venders.. My 2 cents worth...

 

[Idaho Ron]

Good Luck.

 

[candre23]

where do you draw the line?

The same place you draw the line between a wine shop and a vineyard. They both sell wine, but would you have any difficulty differentiating between the two?

A wine shop is a distributor. They buy bottles from hundreds of sources, and re-sell them to the public in one convenient retail location. A wine shop may commission a local vineyard to produce cases of "shop label" wine for them, but wine shops don't do the growing or aging themselves.

A vineyard is a place they actually make wine. They usually only make one variety, or a handful at most. They may sell to distributors, or to individual customers directly. They frequently make a little extra money giving tours or selling wine glasses or wine racks or corkscrews, but their real business is crafting their own particular brand of wine.

Likewise, an easy distinction is made between online shops who are simply distributors for dozens or hundreds of products that they import from China, and guys who just make one or two mods to sell. The distributors might commission customized products with their logo on them, but they all come out of the same chinese factories. Meanwhile, the makers might sell replacement parts (batteries, attys, etc) specifically for their mods, but their real business is making the mods they designed.

It seems very cut and dry to me.

 

[Lightgeoduck]

@candre23

Again the decision is up to the Forum managers. I am in no way in a position to sway it one way or the other, nor am I involved in the process. I would just like to offer another way of seeing it and the definition of "cut and dry" is relative.

as a consumer I understand where you are coming from, but it goes further than that.

referencing the OP and the wine analogy

1. Cybervex and his bartleby : As you say it is very popular so is it safe to presume it's past a hobby

2. I understand the passion of the hobby..since I tinker with mods on my free time (don't sell them though) and if you look there are tons of posts with members posting and sharing their mod ideas and projects as hobbies.

But especially on the interwebs if an idea is liked and wanted and that person whats to pursue the exchange of idea for cash, it can spread like wild fire...so it isn't so easy to draw that line on how many hobby projects it takes to turn into a business(in my mind)

I mean it isn't a china reseller hobbyist thing to compare to because... when would it be considered unfair for other "artists" that went through the process like for example:

Dave from Super T manufacturing who crafts the "Super" line himself
and JeffakaMax who crafted The Chuck

Just to name two... and both of whom do quite well here (I assume) with a slow start off.

Again this post isn't to say how it should or shouldn't be... I just want to point out there are alot of things to consider , and I trust the management team is taking everything into account.... I for one am glad I am not in the position to deal with that responsibility.

I hope that helped you see another point of view...

 

[candre23]

I hope that helped you see another point of view...

Not really. It's still a matter of handcrafting one premium product vs. simply redistributing many commodity products. Thagbuilt and Super T may be selling mods like hotcakes, but I see no reason why the new rules shouldn't apply to them as well.

This isn't a "big guy vs little guy" thing. This is simply a matter of treating artisans different from retailers.

 

[Connman]

Am I wrong or were not some of the Retailers actually created mods from here and now are being sold so they made the decision to sell them thus becoming a supplier.

I can`t see anyone wanting to go selling and still be like well I did that like this let me help you copy it. The threads turn into I`m pm-ing you threads put me on the list etc.. Makes for crappy reading.

 

[AngusATAT]

Here is my take on the situation... if you want to use the ECF to advertise and sell mods, e-cigs, or e-cig accessories, then you're a supplier and will need to register as such on this site. Once registered, then you can advertise and sell, but only in the appropriate forums. The restrictions suppliers have are in place for a reason, and that's because it has been and would be abused.

I'm all for modders selling their mods here. I've bought from cybervex before, myself. I agree that they are very valuable members of the community. I'm actually surprised that I don't see more of them posting in the Suppliers forum, where they can freely advertise, discuss, and sell their mods. There are only a handful of forums that suppliers are not allowed to post in. There are quite a few that they are not allowed to discuss their business and/or products in, but can post about anything else. There are also designated forums for them to advertise and sell, and others that they can even respond to members reviews of them or their products. So it's not as if they are completely restricted.

Yes, sometimes registering as a supplier can take a bit of time, and suppliers are not allowed to discuss their products or business on the forums until the registration process is complete. Considering that advertising here can greatly improve their sales, I would say it's worth the wait, and it pays to register as early as possible. Remember, our moderation staff are volunteers, and at the moment we're a little short handed.

I'm not entirely opposed to creating a subforum of the Suppliers Forum just for the modders. I'll kick that idea around a bit and talk with the rest of the staff. However, a new usergroup and relaxed supplier rules for them are most likely not in the cards at this point in time.

 

[candre23]

The threads turn into I`m pm-ing you threads put me on the list etc.. Makes for crappy reading.

And the reason mod makers have to resort to PMing people information is that they are not allowed to post openly in the forums.

if you want to use the ECF to advertise and sell mods, e-cigs, or e-cig accessories, then you're a supplier and will need to register as such on this site.

The problem is that this creates an unnecessarily high barrier to entry for simple mod makers. MrPuff has been forbidden from posting anything about his mod for almost two months pending supplier approval. That's just plain ridiculous. He doesn't even have anything for sale. All he's doing is refining the design. People want updates, but he's not allowed to post any due to red tape.

This may be an abnormal situation, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. Something needs to change. Either the rules need to be officially revised so as not to unduly punish mod makers, or the people in charge of this stuff need to realize when the rules are doing more harm than good and make exceptions.

 

[AngusATAT]

The problem is that this creates an unnecessarily high barrier to entry for simple mod makers. MrPuff has been forbidden from posting anything about his mod for almost two months pending supplier approval. That's just plain ridiculous. He doesn't even have anything for sale. All he's doing is refining the design. People want updates, but he's not allowed to post any due to red tape.

This may be an abnormal situation, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. Something needs to change. Either the rules need to be officially revised so as not to unduly punish mod makers, or the people in charge of this stuff need to realize when the rules are doing more harm than good and make exceptions.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. The rules are in place as they are specifically because they have been abused in the past, and taking those rules away would only invite things to be abused once again. They're not going to change.

In the specific case of MrPuff: I'm sorry it is taking a while for his application to go through, and while it may be inconvenient for the time being, it will be resolved soon. I'm already in the process of bringing on some more moderators to ease the workload around here, so hopefully some things that are backlogged now can get taken care of.

 

[AngusATAT]

And the reason mod makers have to resort to PMing people information is that they are not allowed to post openly in the forums.

Supplier/modders have a few forums where they are able to post openly about their mods/products, so your statement isn't entirely correct.

 

[kristin]

Just a thought - what about a "Supplier Applicant" status that allows current members, who are applying for a change to supplier status, to post in the suppliers forum about their upcoming products and has the same posting restrictions as a supplier status? It'd be a status just for current members (in good standing) with a minimum number of posts.