I feel you! http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...uid-vendors-what-we-want-you.html#post6922505 (same sentiment)
At least with this diacetyl and friends (LOL) discussion, it would seem as if there is some movement in the right direction -- somewhat.
Starting a LIST of diacetyl-free ejuice suppliers. Please, keep to JUST listing the supplier names!
- Thread starter texastumbleweed
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
I feel you! http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...uid-vendors-what-we-want-you.html#post6922505 (same sentiment)
At least with this diacetyl and friends (LOL) discussion, it would seem as if there is some movement in the right direction -- somewhat.
The statement was quoted from an e-mail directly to me from the Canadian e-juice maker, he also attached the Diacetyl test to that e-mail.
He's been corresponding with me for the last couple of days, and said I have permission to discuss and post the results wherever I feel necessary.
here are some quotes from our e-mail correspondence
"As I said, we've only tested butterscotch from them, we used it for about 2-3 months before testing and will not make this mistake again. We took their word on it as many do, and unfortunately were miss lead. We recalled and discontinued the product in question as soon as we'd received the results of the test."
"I emailed them about this with no reply, I also posted this page of results on a facebook group where people where talking about flavor west flavours and someone removed me from the group the same day. I don't know what was up with that, but this is an authentic report from a proper lab.
Please keep in mind I don't want this to come across as me bashing another company, as I will not speak ill of another business unless there is a safety concern that I feel is putting other people at risk. In this case there is such a concern, and it seems like they are not willing to acknowledge or address it."
"Your right, that is a high level of diacetyl and more than enough to cause concern. It is 1.797mg per 1ml when used at 10%, where diacetyl must be used at a minimum of 0.2mg per 1 liter to be noticeable. This is basically 1000 times more than is needed and a high risk to those inhaling it."
He's been corresponding with me for the last couple of days, and said I have permission to discuss and post the results wherever I feel necessary.
here are some quotes from our e-mail correspondence
"As I said, we've only tested butterscotch from them, we used it for about 2-3 months before testing and will not make this mistake again. We took their word on it as many do, and unfortunately were miss lead. We recalled and discontinued the product in question as soon as we'd received the results of the test."
"I emailed them about this with no reply, I also posted this page of results on a facebook group where people where talking about flavor west flavours and someone removed me from the group the same day. I don't know what was up with that, but this is an authentic report from a proper lab.
Please keep in mind I don't want this to come across as me bashing another company, as I will not speak ill of another business unless there is a safety concern that I feel is putting other people at risk. In this case there is such a concern, and it seems like they are not willing to acknowledge or address it."
"Your right, that is a high level of diacetyl and more than enough to cause concern. It is 1.797mg per 1ml when used at 10%, where diacetyl must be used at a minimum of 0.2mg per 1 liter to be noticeable. This is basically 1000 times more than is needed and a high risk to those inhaling it."
Last edited:
Well, then apparently Wlad is either misinformed or is making falsehoods...?
Our Ahlusion line of e-juice or e-liquid is made by us, in the U.S.A. using natural, and preferably USDA certified organic sourced ingredients.
About Us
I get it: You don't think it's possible.. That's fine... I'm not here to convince you otherwise. Was just curious if there was something else out there that I wasn't aware of which would specifically nullify every single juice out there as non-organic, which I was inquiring about.
If I would have known ahead of time that it would have continued to detract from this thread about diacetyl & its substitutes, I wouldn't have said anything, as it's not fair to this thread. I'm done with that part of it now.
Our Ahlusion line of e-juice or e-liquid is made by us, in the U.S.A. using natural, and preferably USDA certified organic sourced ingredients.
About Us
I get it: You don't think it's possible.. That's fine... I'm not here to convince you otherwise. Was just curious if there was something else out there that I wasn't aware of which would specifically nullify every single juice out there as non-organic, which I was inquiring about.
If I would have known ahead of time that it would have continued to detract from this thread about diacetyl & its substitutes, I wouldn't have said anything, as it's not fair to this thread. I'm done with that part of it now.
This may be interesting to our conversation. I found this new article today on the diacetyl issue and the workers getting popcorn lung. It appears nobody considered the diacetyl that the workers were receiving from cigarettes and they all were smokers.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10408444.2014.882292
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10408444.2014.882292
Last edited:
Dr. Farsilanos (sp?) is conducting a crowd funded research project where he is going to test liquids from approximately 100 vendors. I am not sure if diacetyl is his main focus or not, but he said in an interview he is looking for chemicals "that don't need to be there and are easy to remove." It will probably be the definitive study (to date) on this topic and I, for one, am very eager to see the results (it is my understanding he will not protect the vendors).
As for diacetyl, I am torn. On one hand, we know it causes an irreversible lung disease in some people (even after relatively short exposures, like a few months). On the other hand, this is a very rare disease and I am not aware of anyone who vapes ever coming down with it. Some people out there have vaped 5 years or more and I am not aware of any cases of Bronchiolitis obliterans. Surely some doctor at some hospital somewhere would have already published a case report stating that vaping caused BO in a patient. I am not aware of any such reports and I am sure they would have been made public by the anti-nicotine people by now.
On the other hand, I want to avoid any harmful chemicals where I can. This includes all diketones (i.e. diaceytl and its substitutes). Diacetyl has been linked to BO in humans, while its substitutes have been linked to similar diseases in rats. The question here (like with every other hazardous chemical) is what amount does it take to cause damage? What amount is in our e-juice? I don't think we know the answer to either for sure.
Finally, the diacetyl question probably isn't the end. There are probably other chemicals in flavorings that are not safe to inhale. Most every chemical in these flavorings have been studied for food safety, but not for inhalation (which is an entirely different animal). The only "safe" way to vape is to vape unflavored juice. It will take decades, most likely, before we understand the full health ramifications of vaping.
As for diacetyl, I am torn. On one hand, we know it causes an irreversible lung disease in some people (even after relatively short exposures, like a few months). On the other hand, this is a very rare disease and I am not aware of anyone who vapes ever coming down with it. Some people out there have vaped 5 years or more and I am not aware of any cases of Bronchiolitis obliterans. Surely some doctor at some hospital somewhere would have already published a case report stating that vaping caused BO in a patient. I am not aware of any such reports and I am sure they would have been made public by the anti-nicotine people by now.
On the other hand, I want to avoid any harmful chemicals where I can. This includes all diketones (i.e. diaceytl and its substitutes). Diacetyl has been linked to BO in humans, while its substitutes have been linked to similar diseases in rats. The question here (like with every other hazardous chemical) is what amount does it take to cause damage? What amount is in our e-juice? I don't think we know the answer to either for sure.
Finally, the diacetyl question probably isn't the end. There are probably other chemicals in flavorings that are not safe to inhale. Most every chemical in these flavorings have been studied for food safety, but not for inhalation (which is an entirely different animal). The only "safe" way to vape is to vape unflavored juice. It will take decades, most likely, before we understand the full health ramifications of vaping.
That's kind of interesting. I'm not so sure about their conclusion, but there might be some comparable facts. However it's going to take someone much more familar with stats and math than me to sort it out.
1) Not all of them were smokers.
2) If smoking directly caused "popcorn lung" there would be many more cases of it. As it stands, it is almost exclusively seen in people exposed to "buttery" vapors in flavoring plants or popcorn factories.
Even if they were all smokers, like BigEgo said, there would be more cases of it and the link would likely be easily associated with smoking. What could've also been the case, if it were true that they were all smokers, is that smoking would possibly leave the lungs that much more susceptible to the whatever was occurring within the lungs of those exposed to large amounts of diacetyl.
I'm not surprised if industry supported a flood of studies attempting to dissprove or water down the link to diactryl since it appears to be a huge PITA to accommodate to current regulations and there might be lawsuits on the line. However, a lot of these types of studies do have valid info mixed in with the bogus stuff. That's why it's so hard to sort out - sometimes better to just chuck the whole thing and start over. It's a shame this is what science has evolved into.
Last edited:
The point in the article to me was that these workers were being exposed to diacetyl from additional sources other than just the flavoring. If this is true than I would think that the safe exposure level might be skewed since they did not account for all sources of diacetyl that they were being exposed to.
I think this is logically the most reasonable possibility, so far.
At this point in time, there seems to be a lot of data that doesn't actually add up.
In wondering about all this, I'm trying to imagine the working conditions in, for example, a popcorn factory.
Isn't the microwave popcorn flavored with a powdery material? Would this powder be floating around in the air, at the factory? If this is the case, then the diacetyl would be in particulate form when inhaled by the workers.
But is pure diacetyl actually a liquid? Or is it originally a solid, and dissolved in something for liquid flavorings?
Would a solid be more likely to irritate the lungs, or do whatever destruction that happens with diacetyl?
Or if originally a liquid, then it would need to ride with a powdery substance to make it dry.
Or when used with popcorn, is it a liquid which is mixed with popping oil?
I do remember people making it in the microwave, at a place I worked many years ago, and the smell of the butter filled the entire floor. And it was extremely strong. So there must have been lots of vapor getting to everyone, and much stronger than any vape I've had. I mean it was so strong that it was really annoying.
The point being, it needs to be known what amounts, and also what forms, of these chemicals are involved in both the factory work and vaping (as well as cooking with the, apparently many, natural ingredients which contain these same molecules).
Isn't the microwave popcorn flavored with a powdery material? Would this powder be floating around in the air, at the factory? If this is the case, then the diacetyl would be in particulate form when inhaled by the workers.
But is pure diacetyl actually a liquid? Or is it originally a solid, and dissolved in something for liquid flavorings?
Would a solid be more likely to irritate the lungs, or do whatever destruction that happens with diacetyl?
Or if originally a liquid, then it would need to ride with a powdery substance to make it dry.
Or when used with popcorn, is it a liquid which is mixed with popping oil?
I do remember people making it in the microwave, at a place I worked many years ago, and the smell of the butter filled the entire floor. And it was extremely strong. So there must have been lots of vapor getting to everyone, and much stronger than any vape I've had. I mean it was so strong that it was really annoying.
The point being, it needs to be known what amounts, and also what forms, of these chemicals are involved in both the factory work and vaping (as well as cooking with the, apparently many, natural ingredients which contain these same molecules).
Popcorn flavoring comes in two forms, a oil and a powder. It varies from one manufacturer to the next, but most of the microwave popcorn packets that you can pop at home use oil bases so the kernels get a more even coat when popped; they're also a bit more stable in the vacuum seal. There are those that you pop first and then shake powdered flavoring on, but most of what I've seen in-store is sold individually, so you have to buy the popcorn and then the shake-on flavoring.
Diacetyl comes in two forms as well, liquid and powder. You can buy Diacetyl all day long from China; one kilo is what I've seen as the minimum order and that runs up to $30. I'm not going to post a link to the purchase pages because it's really not something I want others to pick up from search results, especially those new to vaping that may skip over pages, but it can be bought. The powder form is generally sold through brewing companies. The first result that popped up in my results was in capsule form.
As with anything, they can always mix a wet base and dry it out, so it's possible for a company to simply dilute, mix and dehydrate it.
That all being said, if the oil is heated during the mixing process and then cooled when or before being packaged, vapor would be present simply due to the processes involved. I don't work at a factory, nor have I ever, so this is simply based on working with mixing ingredients in general.
Diacetyl comes in two forms as well, liquid and powder. You can buy Diacetyl all day long from China; one kilo is what I've seen as the minimum order and that runs up to $30. I'm not going to post a link to the purchase pages because it's really not something I want others to pick up from search results, especially those new to vaping that may skip over pages, but it can be bought. The powder form is generally sold through brewing companies. The first result that popped up in my results was in capsule form.
As with anything, they can always mix a wet base and dry it out, so it's possible for a company to simply dilute, mix and dehydrate it.
That all being said, if the oil is heated during the mixing process and then cooled when or before being packaged, vapor would be present simply due to the processes involved. I don't work at a factory, nor have I ever, so this is simply based on working with mixing ingredients in general.
Last edited:
Thanks for the explanation. I was picturing a room with a giant vat, and people dumping large sacks of powder into it, with the air all foggy due to particulate matter containing diacetyl.
The oil version does sound more likely for popcorn.
Considering the amounts in vaping juice, compared to a pure (if that's the case) diacetyl oil, it seems that if anything put it into the air at a factory it would result in an 8 hour "vape" with a huge amount of it in every breath. That would be a major difference, all right.
And I don't think that the amounts in their cigarettes would even compare to the amounts they were breathing, if the diacetyl was being continually heated (to just about any extent, if the area was poorly ventilated) during their work process.
But of course, I can't assume how much was in the air at the factories, or how it got there. But I do assume that there was more than is in the air from cooking with butter and any other foods that naturally contain diacetyl.
One more comment. Since the health problems were lung related, it appears that there was either not enough direct body contact to cause a skin irritation, or it doesn't cause much skin irritation for humans. If there normally was lots of direct skin contact, and diacetyl was readily absorbed, then I guess it is possible that the lungs are the only thing that it adversely affects internally, and only when at extremely high levels. And that would bring things full-circle, back to food ingestion, unless something in the digestive tract neutralizes it somehow.
Like everyone is saying, more data is needed....
Oil? That might explain another property that could affect the lungs differently than what's used in flavorings. The studies seem to create more questions than they answer.
It's all in the concentration levels. Some food-grade flavorings have higher concentrations of Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl, just as some popcorn flavorings do.
That being said, most workers are given masks to wear which cover their nose and mouth to prevent inhalation of dangerous or otherwise toxic chemical fumes. They function quite similar to the military-style gas masks which filter out the majority of the "bad" stuff that you would otherwise be inhaling directly. I don't know to what degree they filter, though I would be led to believe they would filter out any particulates in the air for sure. How well they filter out basic vapor from heated oils or a water mixture, I'm not sure. I know the ones I used the Army filtered out what we had to breath in during BCT and the gas chamber to the point where it was nearly clean air with very little residual left from the gas surrounding us. I would imagine food-grade masks work equally as well, although they're not fighting bio-chemicals designed to render people completely useless.
That said, much like exposure to any chemical, how healthy you are before exposure and over the course of exposure has a lot to do with it. Someone that has a weak immune system or prior illness that has put a damper on their health will get sick easier and most likely faster than someone who is in decent or near-perfect health. If a factory worker was a smoker smoking 1-2 packs a day and exposing themselves to the chemicals at work, they're already opening themselves up to whatever comes their way. There's a reason smokers normally get sick faster and more often than a non-smoker. That's not to say chemical exposure can't be *the* cause of you getting sick, it can. I've seen perfectly healthy peoples' health deteriorate from working in chemical factories while others walk around and act as if nothing has or is going on. Some do it for 20-30 years, others 40-50 and retire perfectly healthy.
That being said, most workers are given masks to wear which cover their nose and mouth to prevent inhalation of dangerous or otherwise toxic chemical fumes. They function quite similar to the military-style gas masks which filter out the majority of the "bad" stuff that you would otherwise be inhaling directly. I don't know to what degree they filter, though I would be led to believe they would filter out any particulates in the air for sure. How well they filter out basic vapor from heated oils or a water mixture, I'm not sure. I know the ones I used the Army filtered out what we had to breath in during BCT and the gas chamber to the point where it was nearly clean air with very little residual left from the gas surrounding us. I would imagine food-grade masks work equally as well, although they're not fighting bio-chemicals designed to render people completely useless
.That said, much like exposure to any chemical, how healthy you are before exposure and over the course of exposure has a lot to do with it. Someone that has a weak immune system or prior illness that has put a damper on their health will get sick easier and most likely faster than someone who is in decent or near-perfect health. If a factory worker was a smoker smoking 1-2 packs a day and exposing themselves to the chemicals at work, they're already opening themselves up to whatever comes their way. There's a reason smokers normally get sick faster and more often than a non-smoker. That's not to say chemical exposure can't be *the* cause of you getting sick, it can. I've seen perfectly healthy peoples' health deteriorate from working in chemical factories while others walk around and act as if nothing has or is going on. Some do it for 20-30 years, others 40-50 and retire perfectly healthy.
Here's a report on a study done on diacetyl workers. Two of the three worst cases were non-smokers, though.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17541015
And, although it refers to exposure ranges listed in a previous report, it doesn't state them in this one.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17541015
And, although it refers to exposure ranges listed in a previous report, it doesn't state them in this one.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
