Steeping experiment
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Ah. Well I'm pretty new to DIY so I don't know of any special method. Just been giving mine a good shake. Maybe there's a better way.
I don't dilute my VG nic I use it like that in DIY. If you want to add some PG to dilute it, probably the easiest mix would be 50/50 and yes, I would shake it (make sure you've gotten it in a bottle where you can really mix it) but it should blend easily and then you'd have 5% nic, not 10%. But, it will be less thick and easier to handle that way, probably.
If just mixing it into a mix I do nothing special to make my nic "blend." I just shake the nic, mix and steep. I don't do heat steeping or anything fancy and I never have, I've heard too many inconsistent results with it. I got an UC for DIY but really found I didn't need it once I got on a regular mixing schedule.
So time, the occasional shake and time are my methods to get everything to blend. My steep times are about a month, so even the most long steeping flavors get a reasonable steep. I find it easier. I have occasionally done a "quick and dirty" steep to get things going if I'm making someone a flavor, but it's more like a 30 minute bath in (pretty hot but not boiling) tapwater, left for 30 minutes, and I don't LOVE doing even that.
There are lots of creative ways to reduce steep time (making 'stones' i.e. mixes of a flavor that one uses frequently but needs a long steep time, like creams, tobaccos and etc. and using that mix to add to juices that require less steep time. The benefits of that (if I ever get around to making some, I haven't yet) are that you can add flavors that may fade to an already steeped flavor and reduce steeping time considerably that way. I think that method probably offers a lot of advantages without the disadvantages of trying different methods to speed steep. Etc.
Anna
If just mixing it into a mix I do nothing special to make my nic "blend." I just shake the nic, mix and steep. I don't do heat steeping or anything fancy and I never have, I've heard too many inconsistent results with it. I got an UC for DIY but really found I didn't need it once I got on a regular mixing schedule.
So time, the occasional shake and time are my methods to get everything to blend. My steep times are about a month, so even the most long steeping flavors get a reasonable steep. I find it easier. I have occasionally done a "quick and dirty" steep to get things going if I'm making someone a flavor, but it's more like a 30 minute bath in (pretty hot but not boiling) tapwater, left for 30 minutes, and I don't LOVE doing even that.
There are lots of creative ways to reduce steep time (making 'stones' i.e. mixes of a flavor that one uses frequently but needs a long steep time, like creams, tobaccos and etc. and using that mix to add to juices that require less steep time. The benefits of that (if I ever get around to making some, I haven't yet) are that you can add flavors that may fade to an already steeped flavor and reduce steeping time considerably that way. I think that method probably offers a lot of advantages without the disadvantages of trying different methods to speed steep. Etc.
Anna
Heat steep #2 was conducted last night. 2 hours at 120 F. Used the same recipe as the previous. Got the sous-vide cooker in so I used that.
Results are, well, a good news/bad news situation.
Good news is, here at about 24 hours after the heat, I can taste all the flavor in the exhale, and this batch is even better than the first. Maybe the longer time was more effective here.
Bad news? The aftertaste. Nothing but pepper. It seems that reducing the temperature did not succeed in stopping nicotine degradation.
I don't know what's different about @ThermoNuker's setup. I believe he's using glass containers and I'm using LDPE. Nic strength and PG/VG ratio could also be different. But it still baffles me that he can steep for 4 days with no noticeable degradation and 2 hours kills my juice.
As far as I can tell, heat is great for flavor and terrible for nicotine. I may try one more heat steep, but it will be with flavor mixed with PG/VG only and no nic. I'll add nic after the mix cools. But right now I have no plans to heat steep juice with nicotine in it again.
Results are, well, a good news/bad news situation.
Good news is, here at about 24 hours after the heat, I can taste all the flavor in the exhale, and this batch is even better than the first. Maybe the longer time was more effective here.
Bad news? The aftertaste. Nothing but pepper. It seems that reducing the temperature did not succeed in stopping nicotine degradation.
I don't know what's different about @ThermoNuker's setup. I believe he's using glass containers and I'm using LDPE. Nic strength and PG/VG ratio could also be different. But it still baffles me that he can steep for 4 days with no noticeable degradation and 2 hours kills my juice.
As far as I can tell, heat is great for flavor and terrible for nicotine. I may try one more heat steep, but it will be with flavor mixed with PG/VG only and no nic. I'll add nic after the mix cools. But right now I have no plans to heat steep juice with nicotine in it again.
@Nate5700, sorry yours turned out differently.
I was going to suggest it to you...to troubleshoot your mix. I suspect you have a "bad nic"?
A fresh Nic should be tasteless. What color is yours? A good one should be clear or somewhat yellow-ish. If it's amber or darker, it has oxidized pretty much and it's when it becomes peppery... bad taste to most of us, but most sought after by few, looking for that true cigar-like kick.
Here's my DIY process in trying out new flavor, a POG for example (no NIC for steps 1 thru 3):
1. Flavor tasting. I first prepare 10ml of same mixes in three separate 50-ml beaker. Taste, adjust percentages (or add new flavoring) of the other two and taste again comparing them to the original. The best tasting one becomes the mod-01. The other beakers are emptied and mixed with new mod-01. The process is repeated just to see if I can hit a better one or mod-02. I usually stop at the third iteration, unless something significant comes up.
2. Speed steep 10ml of orig, mod-01, mod-02,...at 150F for 4-5 hours.
3. Taste/Smell test. This is where I decide what to keep, or if the mix is vapable at all after it has steeped. I do my test using an rda with microcoil sitting on a cotton pad for easy cleaning and cotton change.
4. Finale. 200ml of the final mix on a capped 500ml flask with desired NIC, cooked sous vide style at 120F for 4 days.
I was going to suggest it to you...to troubleshoot your mix. I suspect you have a "bad nic"?
A fresh Nic should be tasteless. What color is yours? A good one should be clear or somewhat yellow-ish. If it's amber or darker, it has oxidized pretty much and it's when it becomes peppery... bad taste to most of us, but most sought after by few, looking for that true cigar-like kick.
Here's my DIY process in trying out new flavor, a POG for example (no NIC for steps 1 thru 3):
1. Flavor tasting. I first prepare 10ml of same mixes in three separate 50-ml beaker. Taste, adjust percentages (or add new flavoring) of the other two and taste again comparing them to the original. The best tasting one becomes the mod-01. The other beakers are emptied and mixed with new mod-01. The process is repeated just to see if I can hit a better one or mod-02. I usually stop at the third iteration, unless something significant comes up.
2. Speed steep 10ml of orig, mod-01, mod-02,...at 150F for 4-5 hours.
3. Taste/Smell test. This is where I decide what to keep, or if the mix is vapable at all after it has steeped. I do my test using an rda with microcoil sitting on a cotton pad for easy cleaning and cotton change.
4. Finale. 200ml of the final mix on a capped 500ml flask with desired NIC, cooked sous vide style at 120F for 4 days.
I haven't ruled out that it's the nic I have in particular, but it comes out of the bottle clear. It's only 36 mg strength though so I suspect it wouldn't have as much color if it's oxidized as, say, 100 mg nic. (I do have some 100 mg coming)
The other things I can think of: You're doing larger batches in glass. Mine was a 10 mL test batch in an LDPE bottle. The LDPE is fairly thin so I suspect more heat gets to the juice through it. The other problem with the LDPE is that it floats. So my bottle, floating in the water, actually got sucked by the pump of the sous-vide cooker closer to the heating element.
I'm going to try the heat steep with no nic just to see if I can get good results still when I add the nic afterward. If it works, it may just make more sense to do it that way and not risk the nicotine degradation with the heat. If I do try it with the nic in there again, I'll make sure to use glass to see if that helps.
50ml beaker. This is what I use to mix samples and speed steep with heat. It's less $2 at most lab stores.
500ml flask for volume production, made of pyrex, about $25.
Holy Moly! 4 days at 120F for a fruit mix (POG=passion fruit, orange, guava)? How can you have any of the aromatic (volatile) notes left? Granted, a 200mL batch is going to take longer to age, than a 15 or 30mL would. But still... ?
If you say it works for you; I have to respect that. But, I would never suggest that to a rookie DIYer. My opinion only...
@Nate5700, if you have not yet taken a few minutes to read this; please do yourself a favor and do so. I respect those who find various methods to accelerate aging helpful, but there are trade-offs. Being aware of what those trade-offs are, and what to look for, can help troubleshooting efforts.
Thanks for the info, it helps. I do wonder about some things in there though, like the idea that a new DIYer won't be able to use sweeteners effectively. I think there's common sense to it, if you start low and work up you're less likely to ruin something. There definitely seems to be consensus that the best way to steep is time, and I respect that. I want to get to a point where I have enough good juice stocked up that it won't bother me to steep for a few weeks. I wanted to try heat steeping though, because it sounded fun and I just wanted to try to get something vapable that isn't fruit, just for in the meantime.
Holy Moly! 4 days at 120F for a fruit mix (POG=passion fruit, orange, guava)? How can you have any of the aromatic (volatile) notes left? Granted, a 200mL batch is going to take longer to age, than a 15 or 30mL would. But still... ?
I have not actually done it. I cited it as an example how I try new flavors. And yes, I read a lot of posts about fruit flavors but the curious me actually want try it, to see if all those elusive aroma leaves at 120F in a flask with a rubber stopper.
Most of the POG flavors I've tried aren't that great either. They're good for few days and gone afterwards. I now buy them in small quantities. Shipping costs is the killer... reason for my next DIY POG.
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For some mixers, especially those new to DIY, sweeteners can become a crutch. Instead of learning to adjust the other ingredients to arrive at a more pleasing mix, they are instructed to "just add sweetener."
Sweeteners can help to tame imbalanced flavors, hide initial chemical notes, and distract from an otherwise mediocre mixes. This, in and of its self, is not a bad thing. But, it does nothing to teach the novice, what is causing the real problems are, and how to correct them. This can lead to a mixer making only mediocre recipes, and having to dump sweetener into everything.
I would much rather see a DIYer develop a recipe, to the best of their ability, without the use of any sweetener at all. Then, and only is something is still missing, begin adding sweetener in minimal quantities as you described. Some concentrates already have a sweet component, and adding more only creates problems.
Sweeteners also have another appeal; "sweet" is one of the last tastes to disappear, as our taste buds become corrupted from smoking. This is one of the reasons so many commercial e-liquids are so sweet. A new vaper may not be able to pick up on all the subtleties of a 7 concentrate recipe, but by golly, they will certainly recognize the presence of sweet. Again; this can be misinterpreted as "I need sweet to have a good vape."
Sweeteners certainly have their place, in most every mixer's flavor stash; but just like most other tools... it can be misused.
Nothing wrong with that in the least; I am not saying you shouldn't use heat.
And, as I mentioned before, there are those DIYers who find heat useful. The only way any of us can truly learn what works, and what doesn't, is to experiment. DIYing is very personalized. It can be cutting-edge-laboratory complex for some, and caveman simple for others, and near limitless variations in between.It is through reading, research, and experimentation that you will find what works best for you. I loved your comment about it sounding fun. The more we can enjoy mixing, and make it less of a chore; the more likely we will want to continue mixing.
I would suggest a couple of simple practices that have served me well on my own DIY journey:
-- Read as much as you can tolerate... and then read some more.
-- Pay attention to both positive and negative opinions for methods, ingredients, and equipment. This will help to show potential pitfalls, as well as winning ideas; and may suggest possible comparison tests (see below).
-- Use comparison/control sample testing when ever possible. Having a known sample, to compare the new/different experiment to, can be very informative. It can help to amplify any benefits, or deficits, of the alternative.
-- Keep your experiments small; 10-30mL is usually plenty to let you know if it is something you want to do again. This will minimize waste, save money, and conserve ingredients. It is easy to scale a winning recipe up to a larger batch size; but fixing a "bad" mix is near impossible. Cut your losses and start over. (If you must try to salvage a larger batch; draw of a small sample (5-10mL), apply changes, and see if it works. If it does; you can doctor the rest is the same manner. If it doesn't; you haven't ruined the whole batch, and you can try something else... or quit without further waste.)
-- Write everything down. Successful DIYing is all about having repeatable processes. Nothing is more heartbreaking, than to make that holy grail of an e-liquid, only to never be able to make it again... because you can't remember everything you did and/or used.
(yes; I am speaking from personal experience
@IDJoel I appreciate the thoughts. I suppose it does make sense for a new DIYer to try to learn to make good juice without sweetener. I just wondered because, well let me give an example...I used some ethyl maltol in a mix with sour apple because I wanted some sweet to counterbalance the sour. This was before I really understood the muting properties that ethyl maltol has. What I found was that it really cut the edge off the sour, so it basically just tastes like a sweeter apple (think Red Delicious instead of Granny Smith). So I asked about it in another thread about possibly using it in a berry mix. What I basically wanted to know was if the berry flavor would be tart (like a real berry) or sweeter. A small amount of ethyl maltol could take the edge off the tart and give me a sweeter mix (which I'm going for). I get the temptation to use it as a crutch though. Maybe adding a small amount of a sweeter berry (strawberry?) would be better, I just didn't think to order any because I don't generally like strawberry.
Totally agree with using small batches for experimenting and having a control. I sampled some of my control batch this weekend and feel like I know more now. Heat steep for two hours gave me about the same flavor profile as the control steeped for a week (ignoring the peppery taste). So that's something.
Totally agree with using small batches for experimenting and having a control. I sampled some of my control batch this weekend and feel like I know more now. Heat steep for two hours gave me about the same flavor profile as the control steeped for a week (ignoring the peppery taste). So that's something.
@Nate5700 are you using a syringe to measure your 10ml tests? When you do a sample so small, every 10th of an ml matters. Using 36mg, you could be getting higher nic than expected. Im sorry i started this thread and havent posted much contributing info, but im still working on it. Im making fine tune adjustments and waiting for fresh batches of NN nic and vg to start my experiments. But i've been researching a theory i have. I appreciate all of the info shared on this thread and has been of good use. The heat steeping will be conquered!
I've been using a 10 mL graduated cylinder for my measurements. I've tried to be as precise as possible but I can't guarantee that it's been perfect. I also normally vape at 36 mg so I've actually been adding flavor to the nic base without diluting. So the high strength could be another factor.
Not the nic by itself, no. But I've made a few batches that I haven't heated that I've sampled and don't detect any peppery taste. So I don't think the nic is already peppery. I haven't ruled out that the nic I bought (from ECX) is a problem though, it could have some degradation that makes it more susceptible to getting peppery under heat? I've got some 100 mg nic coming from Nicotine River, maybe that's better nic.
But the ecx nic is ok without heat? And you did that batch with 36mg and no dilution? And for an update. I had previously bought 48mg and diluted it to 12 by frothing it. That was about 3 weeks ago. It obtained a much stronger smell, so i was hesitant to try it. I tried it today, and it seems just as strong as my 6mg diluted from 12mg by shaking it. Im wondering if the settling got rid of the harshness(and i've hear it does in cases mellow out after steeping). Im also wondering if im just not shaking enough and getting 12mg hot spots in my 6mg final solution. Ixve ordered a sample of 6mg from NN to see how it tastes straight from the company. That will be a big advancement for my harshness issue and over all heat steeping method theory.
I would suggest trying your 36mg before and after heat and see how that turns out. If you try it, tell us your heat time and temps with results.
Seems to be fine without heat. No dilution, and I've tried it in a few different recipes.
I might do this, but I'm hesitant to use up more nic base on the experiment. Then again I have a liter of 100 mg coming so we'll see. I just have an unhealthy aversion to waste and I've already burned 20 mL on juice I can't vape.
Im not rich or wealthy by any means. Im a jard worker. But i have no problem wasting nic on experiments. Especially for how little the waste is. And ESPECIALLY when i think about how much i spend on store bought juice. And DOUBLE ESPECIALLY when i think about how much i spend on cigs a month. Do it for science!
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