Steeping experiment

[IDJoel]

What I basically wanted to know was if the berry flavor would be tart (like a real berry) or sweeter. A small amount of ethyl maltol could take the edge off the tart and give me a sweeter mix (which I'm going for). I get the temptation to use it as a crutch though. Maybe adding a small amount of a sweeter berry (strawberry?) would be better, I just didn't think to order any because I don't generally like strawberry.

Don't mistake that "taking the edge off" affect for "sweetening." That is actually just the beginning of the muting effect. It is smoothing off those sharp "tart" notes and allowing the sweeter notes to come through more noticeably.

In my opinion, one of the worst myths of DIY, is that EM is a sweetener. Unless one uses it at extremely high percentages (8% and above), it doesn't really add sweetness (and then it becomes a coil-killer extraordinaire). It is (more accurately?) shaving off more and more of the complex notes leaving behind that first/last detectable sweetness that is already there.

In my own mixing experience; I have found that there are much better genuine sweeteners. Sucralose (CAP-Super Sweet, TFA-Sweetener, etc.), and DIY-ready stevia (OSDIYS, NN, etc.), add a much more concentrated, truer sweetness to a mix. Which, encourages using less (and therefore less gunking), and has less of a muting affect.

The use of secondary/accent flavors, like you suggest, is a a great choice. The use of light(er) flavor concentrates; like dragon fruit, pear, raspberry, strawberry, watermelon, or grape, at low percentages, can add a subtle sweetness without creating a noticeable presence of their own. Which of these is best, for any given mix, will depend on the recipe focus. Pear and dragon fruit are almost always good choices; the others can be a bit more recipe-dependent.

As always, all of this is only my opinions; based on my own mixing experience. Other mixers may have different experiences and opinions, which are every bit as valid as my own. I would encourage you to try different ideas/methods and see what works best for you.

 

[go_player]

In my opinion, one of the worst myths of DIY, is that EM is a sweetener. Unless one uses it at extremely high percentages (8% and above), it doesn't really add sweetness (and then it becomes a coil-killer extraordinaire). It is (more accurately?) shaving off more and more of the complex notes leaving behind that first/last detectable sweetness that is already there.

I agree with the thrust of your post as a whole, but I'd quibble about some details. I think EM does supply a certain impression of sweetness when combined with other flavor molecules (and it is what brings the impression of sweetness to a lot of flavors that lack any other sweetener- vanillins have a similar effect and serve a similar purpose in others.) But it's not at all a sweetener in the way sucralose, for instance is. I should also point out that I'm inclined to consider even VG a mild sweetener.

But you're completely right that EM can have unfortunate effects, especially if used too high. And the thing is _there's already a lot of EM in a lot of flavors_. I've talked a little bit before on here about what I call "molecule stacking." Where some flavors that seem like they ought to work well together don't even at very reasonable percentages for each that stack a particular molecule to a point that's a bit too high- I think EM is a common culprit here, because it might actually be the most common ingredient in the flavors we mix with (especially if you lump it together with methyl maltol.)

So, I think EM can be used in certain recipes that aren't already full of it to add that impression of sweetness. But the more common problem in recipes is having too much maltol just from flavors. So you certainly can't just use it to add more sweetness as you can sucralose- and of course it's not nearly as sweet as sucralose anyway. One thing I do think it is sometimes useful for is exactly the effect that is unfortunate in other cases- a bit of EM can round the harsh corners off certain flavors, especially for recipes with short steep times. But again, this is always recipe dependent and you have to play with it to get it right. Sucralose less so- just add more if you want more.

I should also note that I don't use sweeteners all that much, so...

 

[go_player]

Not at all at 120 degrees.

Another bonus with this steeping gear at 120 degrees: Toss in a vacuum sealed steak while steeping your favorite juice and you'll get a wonderfully cooked rare steak. Sear both sides with flame and treat yourself a wonderful dinner. Pair it with your favorite wine and your newly-steeped flavor... heavens!

For a number of reasons I won't go into in this thread I gave up on the idea of heat-steeping quite a while ago (aside from briefly bringing mixes to about body temperature before shaking them, which I heartily recommend.) I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from experimenting but I'd advise some caution and not only controls but at least single-blind testing before you draw a lot of conclusions.

That said, I'll endorse the immersion circulator, especially at that price. I'm not familiar with that model, but I got an Anova a while back when it was on sale, and it's a pretty indispensable device if you cook a lot, I think.

I will note that 120F is a very rare steak. With thinner steaks it doesn't matter much because searing them will bring even their centers to a few degrees higher than that, but unless you like them black and blue I'd go a bit higher with a thick steak- I like my steak on the rarer side, but I tend to do 125-127.5F with a thick steak (with a thinner one I just sear it, because the center will reach at least that temperature before it is properly seared.) I think you can get at least as good a result with a reverse-sear with a thick steak, but it is a lot easier to mess that up and overcook the steak. The immersion circulator is relatively fool-proof.

Where the immersion circulator really shines, IMHO, is with larger cuts that have better flavor but not the texture of more expensive cuts. A chuck roast that has spent 48 hours at around 130F (I would worry about going much lower than that for that long, though I imagine it might be even better) is an amazing thing- tender as you would expect from the tender cuts, but with the flavor of chuck.

And there are things you can do with eggs that I do not imagine you could easily do in any other way. So I'd say that anyone who wants to experiment with heat-steeping with an immersion circulator (and it seems like the best device for that) will not go too far wrong getting one, if they like to cook, even if they wind up not using it to steep juice .

 

[IDJoel]

I agree with the thrust of your post as a whole, but I'd quibble about some details. I think EM does supply a certain impression of sweetness when combined with other flavor molecules (and it is what brings the impression of sweetness to a lot of flavors that lack any other sweetener- vanillins have a similar effect and serve a similar purpose in others.) But it's not at all a sweetener in the way sucralose, for instance is. I should also point out that I'm inclined to consider even VG a mild sweetener.

Your last sentence (above; in bold) is why I take issue with new DIYers being told to "just add EM" as a sweetener. Anyone not already familiar with DIY ingredients, who hears the word/description "sweetener." is naturally think of something that is going to behave like sugar or sugar substitutes. As you said; it provides the "impression" of sweetness.

This impression is aroma based, and not flavor based. If in doubt; dilute 1% EM in water (0.1mL in 9.9mL of water), and stir well. Then, while pinching your nose closed, taste about half the mix (be careful not to inhale through your mouth while doing so. While continuing not to breathe, swish it around in your mouth. Do you detect any sweetness? I don't. All I get is a artificial chemical-like taste. Spit it out and start breathing again. Now, repeat the experiment, but allow yourself to breathe as you are swishing it around. What do you taste this time? I am still tasting that fake chemical taste; but I am now getting a distinct aroma of the cotton candy booth at the fair, and maybe a suggestion of caramel.

In my opinion, EM should be left in the classification as an adjunct. I would put it in the same group as MTS Vape Wizard, Magic Mask, AP, and many others. And like these others, If one uses them without understanding the pitfalls, as well as the benefits; is just as likely, going to make their recipe worse, instead of better.

I am in agreement; that EM can be a useful tool in some recipes (enhancing certain flavors, smoothing out harsh notes, improving mouthfeel, and adding a sweeter aroma). I also agree, that cumulative ("stacking" as you describe it) excess, is likely a main pitfall with using EM. With the exception of TFA concentrates, I know of no other manufactures that provide any consistent data on whether a given concentrate already contains EM (and even TFA is not 100%). So, for the most part, this leaves a largely blind crapshoot.

This is why I would love to see DIYers, who are trying to help new initiates; suggest sucralose, stevia, or erythritol, when they are wanting to suggest sweeteners. They provide true sweetness, and have less potential for negative/ununderstood impact. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Skunk!]

L

Holy Moly! 4 days at 120F for a fruit mix (POG=passion fruit, orange, guava)? How can you have any of the aromatic (volatile) notes left? Granted, a 200mL batch is going to take longer to age, than a 15 or 30mL would. But still... ?

If you say it works for you; I have to respect that. But, I would never suggest that to a rookie DIYer. My opinion only...

@Nate5700, if you have not yet taken a few minutes to read this; please do yourself a favor and do so. I respect those who find various methods to accelerate aging helpful, but there are trade-offs. Being aware of what those trade-offs are, and what to look for, can help troubleshooting efforts.

Most fruits are good in 4 days without any heat,aren't 5hey? I do mostly tobaccos so I am not the most experienced person with fruit. I usually add fruits to well steeped tobacco stones and they are just right in about a week.

 

[Jered]

@Nate5700 i want to let you know that i am currently steeping a 6mg 30ml for 4 hours @150 in glass bottle. I am not adding flavor until the four hours, then i will add flavor, and try to homogenize the liquid through a dispersing blade. Let cool, then vape.

 

[Nate5700]

@Nate5700 i want to let you know that i am currently steeping a 6mg 30ml for 4 hours @150 in glass bottle. I am not adding flavor until the four hours, then i will add flavor, and try to homogenize the liquid through a dispersing blade. Let cool, then vape.

I'll look forward to your results. I think I'm going to do a heat test without flavor as you suggested, just when I free up the time.

 

[NatashaTMT]

But you're completely right that EM can have unfortunate effects, especially if used too high. And the thing is _there's already a lot of EM in a lot of flavors_. I've talked a little bit before on here about what I call "molecule stacking." Where some flavors that seem like they ought to work well together don't even at very reasonable percentages for each that stack a particular molecule to a point that's a bit too high- I think EM is a common culprit here, because it might actually be the most common ingredient in the flavors we mix with (especially if you lump it together with methyl maltol.)

Makes complete sense to me!

In my opinion, EM should be left in the classification as an adjunct. I would put it in the same group as MTS Vape Wizard, Magic Mask, AP, and many others. And like these others, If one uses them without understanding the pitfalls, as well as the benefits; is just as likely, going to make their recipe worse, instead of better.

I am in agreement; that EM can be a useful tool in some recipes (enhancing certain flavors, smoothing out harsh notes, improving mouthfeel, and adding a sweeter aroma). I also agree, that cumulative ("stacking" as you describe it) excess, is likely a main pitfall with using EM. With the exception of TFA concentrates, I know of no other manufactures that provide any consistent data on whether a given concentrate already contains EM (and even TFA is not 100%). So, for the most part, this leaves a largely blind crapshoot.

This is why I would love to see DIYers, who are trying to help new initiates; suggest sucralose, stevia, or erythritol, when they are wanting to suggest sweeteners. They provide true sweetness, and have less potential for negative/ununderstood impact. That was the point I was trying to make.

I agree with this 100% as I learned the hard way without realising the mistake initially. After not using EM for several months, I came across a recipe calling for it the other day. After not using for so long, I definitely picked up on that chemical taste you described. It’s definitely a sweet suggestion that confuses our brain and tastebuds.

 

[Jered]

@Nate5700 the nicotine mellowed completely out. No loss of flavor. And the nic is still noticeable, but no "bite". Just throat hit which is exactly what i wanted. And to explain the "bite", this juice is at 5.5mg, and doesnt have the bite like the 3mg did doing other methods.

 

[Nate5700]

@Nate5700 the nicotine mellowed completely out. No loss of flavor. And the nic is still noticeable, but no "bite". Just throat hit which is exactly what i wanted. And to explain the "bite", this juice is at 5.5mg, and doesnt have the bite like the 3mg did doing other methods.

Interesting. So no "bite" meaning the harshness you were talking about when you just mixed the nic by shaking? Was this the sams harshness you mentioned in the other thread where you were having to preheat your coil? I also assume that means no peppery taste. Did you vape it immediately after taking it off the heat? With mine the peppery taste didn't show up for a day or so.

Maybe you're on to something with there being "hotspots" with higher nic concentration when you just mix by shaking. Steeping I'd guess would help that, but I can definitely see how heat would as well. It thins out the juice and accelerates molecule movement, so it would help homogenize the mix.

My experiment with unflavored may need to get more complex. I'm thinking both ECX and NR mixes at a couple of different strengths. I want to see if it's just the ECX nic that was the problem, or if it may have been the strength of the mix.

 

[Jered]

I am talking about the harshness that required my coil to preheat. I have some 6mg coming soon that i will try out to try and eliminate the hotspot theory

 

[IDJoel]

I am talking about the harshness that required my coil to preheat.

Isn't that called coil gunk?

The crust/crud that accumulates on coils does affect the coil's ability to vaporize liquid. When power is increased, the gunk burns/smolders, and produces an acrid smoke. I, for one, have no desire to inhale this. Sounds like it is time to clean the coils and re-wick, or change out the coils (or coil head) entirely, to me.

 

[go_player]

Your last sentence (above; in bold) is why I take issue with new DIYers being told to "just add EM" as a sweetener. Anyone not already familiar with DIY ingredients, who hears the word/description "sweetener." is naturally think of something that is going to behave like sugar or sugar substitutes. As you said; it provides the "impression" of sweetness.

Well, I very much agree with you about this. It turns out that I very rarely want what actual sweeteners bring to the table, but of course I do want that impression of sweetness that the maltols bring- a lot of the flavors we use would be unvapeable without it. I think it's important to understand that it's an essential ingredient in flavors, but also important to understand that it's already present in most flavors that need it, perhaps in quantities larger than we might think ideal, especially when we combine them.

In my opinion, EM should be left in the classification as an adjunct. I would put it in the same group as MTS Vape Wizard, Magic Mask, AP, and many others. And like these others, If one uses them without understanding the pitfalls, as well as the benefits; is just as likely, going to make their recipe worse, instead of better.

Well, you're always very careful to qualify your statements by calling them opinion, even in cases where I'm not sure they qualify as opinion (I'd call some of the things you call opinion at least partially questions of fact- questions of fact can be disputed, but I'd distinguish them from questions of opinion.) I sometimes think you go a bit far in this regard, but it's also the case that I'm prone to going a bit far in the other- I often expect people to unravel what I mean as a statement of opinion and what I mean as a statement of fact more than is entirely wise on the Internet.

I am in agreement; that EM can be a useful tool in some recipes (enhancing certain flavors, smoothing out harsh notes, improving mouthfeel, and adding a sweeter aroma). I also agree, that cumulative ("stacking" as you describe it) excess, is likely a main pitfall with using EM. With the exception of TFA concentrates, I know of no other manufactures that provide any consistent data on whether a given concentrate already contains EM (and even TFA is not 100%). So, for the most part, this leaves a largely blind crapshoot.

Even TFA's sheets are not much of a guide here, since they don't give more than a general range and their ranges seem very inconsistent for products that probably contain about the same amount of certain compounds. Thus the prevalent idea that their Strawberry Ripe is necessarily very high in Maltols relative to other flavors that I'd guess are just as high- it is very easy to misread their sheets in misleading ways, but even if you read them carefully they don't provide enough information to go by for this question.

So, I'd completely agree with you that EM is not a sweetener in the same sense that sucralose is. And I'd also agree that it is a bad idea to tell beginners that it is a sweetener without a lot of qualification. That said- it kind of is a very context dependent sweetener, and is actually the most important sweetener used in juice, IMHO- it's just that it comes baked into the flavors rather than having to be added most of the time. The vanillins are very similar in this regard.

This is why I would love to see DIYers, who are trying to help new initiates; suggest sucralose, stevia, or erythritol, when they are wanting to suggest sweeteners. They provide true sweetness, and have less potential for negative/ununderstood impact. That was the point I was trying to make.

Well, classification is often a matter of context, I think. I agree to with you about this- anyone looking for sugar lips should be steered far away from EM as a means of achieving it, and I would advise beginners to steer clear of EM in general.

That said, if you're trying to understand juice it's important to understand EM's role as a sweetener, and though I don't use it much as one because the amounts baked into my flavors are already very high, usually, I think it might be very useful for even relative beginners to understand that, and there might be cases where even a beginner might want to use it as a sweetener, once they understand it.

For instance- I have cited FLV's Wild Melon as the best artificial Melon out there (a matter of opinion.) I like it a lot, but it is not very sweet (not quite a matter of fact, but close enough for jazz,) and gives just enough impression of sweetness to feel like a melon. I haven't tried adding EM to it, because I like its subtlety, but I wonder if some people who do not like it that much because it is only faintly sweet would like it a lot better with a bit of EM added for sweetness (Wild Melon has no sharp corners to be rounded off, IMHO.)

So I agree that telling people to use EM as a sweetener will-nilly is a bad idea, I think it's a bit like telling people to always season their food with salt when they only eat processed food with a lot of salt in it. It's not that salt isn't the most important seasoning- it's that there is already enough there, most of the time, maybe too much. But it's still important to understand that salt is the most important seasoning.

 

[IDJoel]

So I agree that telling people to use EM as a sweetener will-nilly is a bad idea, I think it's a bit like telling people to always season their food with salt when they only eat processed food with a lot of salt in it. It's not that salt isn't the most important seasoning- it's that there is already enough there, most of the time, maybe too much. But it's still important to understand that salt is the most important seasoning.

This is a great analogy; and expresses my own understanding of maltols just about perfectly! I will utilize that for my own future comments.

"Taste first; season second (if/when beneficial)." sums up my position on maltols well.

 

[go_player]

This is a great analogy; and expresses my own understanding of maltols just about perfectly! I will utilize that for my own future comments.

"Taste first; season second (if/when beneficial)." sums up my position on maltols well.

Well we were saying very much the same thing all along weren't we? If we disagreed it was only in how to express certain things, and if my analogy to salt pleases you you should consider yourself at least half its author. It would not have occurred to me absent our slight disagreement over terminology.

 

[Jered]

@IDJoel i get the same harshness on new coils

 

[IDJoel]

@IDJoel i get the same harshness on new coils

Then I guess I am confused by what you meant referring to coil preheat:

the harshness that required my coil to preheat