TC: Any reason against it?

[Mooch]

Oh not another one of these crappy claims. For Pete's sake, PBusardo did a long video a couple of years ago in how Aspire's battery factory manufactures its cells and how they are manufactured for vapers. And how they are temperature tested for a couple months before being sold to ensure they won't blow up in a vapers face.

The cells manufactured by the Yong Deli New Energy Company, Ltd for Aspire are standard 18650’s using the same chemistry as many others we use. They were not somehow designed for vapers as no company would be insane enough to put both the negative and positive terminal at the top of a battery being slid in and out of devices and chargers all the time, protected only by a thin wrap and insulator ring.

Yong Deli stores their cells for a couple of months because they need to in order to catch the bad ones. None of the major manufacturers do this because they don’t need to. Their process control is good enough to ensure that any defect rate is astoundingly low. It’s incredibly expensive to store cells like that and holds up huge amounts of inventory. It would only be done if absolutely necessary.

 

[Mooch]

None do! But the problems occurs when you follow battery safety and the damn thing explodes anyway. I have studied this problem and I found out why this happens. As our lithium cells without temperature testing can after the first few charge and discharge cycles, can go thermal.


No you can choose to use cells manufactured for vaping or take your chance and use cells that are made for power packs, etc. and not designed for consumer use.


That is what I am saying, cells designed for vaping are safer than those that are not. It isn't really hard to understand.


High performing cells gives up on safety. That is the price you pay. Safer cells doesn't cut corners like moving the plates closer together, thinning the shell, using thin wraps, etc. Same is true of anything. If you want a high performance vehicle to win races, you don't go to your local car dealer to buy it. Just like when you pick a vehicle for work, go to the store, or go on vacation, taking your high performance nitro race car wouldn't be a good choice, now is it?

I and others have tested Aspire batteries and their ratings are accurate. Well the one I tested was an Aspire 26650 4300mah cells (I don't have any other of their cells). And Aspire rates them at 20A continuous while Mooch rates them 30A continuous. Go figure.


What challenge? When someone claims there are not cells manufactured for vapers and that is completely wrong! There is for Pete's sake. And you can't have both high performer and safer in one product. That just isn't reality.

There are no cells made for vaping. What is different about Aspire’s cells? That they’re tested to see if they are defective?

Every Samsung, Sony, etc., cell is also tested when it’s being “formed”, i.e., initialized. Any that do not meet their specs are graded lower or rejected. If Aspire needs to monitor temperature for “heaters”, hot cells, there are process control issues they have not solved so this extra testing is required.

What makes a high performance cell less safe than a lower performing one? They both run at about the temperature at their rating. What failure rate data are you using to come to your conclusions regarding higher performing cells?

Higher performance cells seem to fail more because they are used and abused much harder. They are used by vapers wanting max power at all costs. The lower performance ones have so much voltage sag you really can’t abuse them for very long.

You say you can’t have a safer cell and a higher performing cell in one product. Why? What data shows you the increased failure rate for different cells based on performance?

I’m actually not sure what you mean by “safer” either. Able to take certain physical or electrical abuse better?

 

[BillW50]

The cells manufactured by the Yong Deli New Energy Company, Ltd for Aspire are standard 18650’s using the same chemistry as many others we use. They were not somehow designed for vapers as no company would be insane enough to put both the negative and positive terminal at the top of a battery being slid in and out of devices and chargers all the time, protected only by a thin wrap and insulator ring.

Yong Deli stores their cells for a couple of months because they need to in order to catch the bad ones. None of the major manufacturers do this because they don’t need to. Their process control is good enough to ensure that any defect rate is astoundingly low. It’s incredibly expensive to store cells like that and holds up huge amounts of inventory. It would only be done if absolutely necessary.

Yes Mooch. Believe what you want. Want to catch those cells what Jay Whitacre talked about, this needs to be done. If Samsung did this too, they wouldn't have had those exploding Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 cell fiasco. To be safe, this should be a must! There are too many exploding cells that vapers are using that are made by Samsung, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo, etc. They don't filter out cells they manufactured that can have a catastrophic failure. They don't even care about vapers and clearly state their cells are not for use in electronic cigarettes. Because if they did care, they would need to test them like Aspire does and use far better wraps. Thank goodness one battery company actually cares about vapers. We need more like them.

 

[ScottP]

If Samsung did this too, they wouldn't have had those exploding Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 cell fiasco.

Nope, that "battery issue" was a case design flaw that caused the case to exert too much physical pressure on the battery which caused the issue with the Note 7's.

To be safe, this should be a must! There are too many exploding cells that vapers are using that are made by Samsung, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo, etc. They don't filter out cells they manufactured that can have a catastrophic failure. They don't even care about vapers and clearly state their cells are not for use in electronic cigarettes. Because if they did care, they would need to test them like Aspire does and use far better wraps. Thank goodness one battery company actually cares about vapers. We need more like them.

It doesn't matter how much a battery is tested, or how good it is, if some knucklehead drops it in a mech with a shorted coil (or even too low ohm), a shorted switch, or if they drop it in their pocket full of loose change and keys, it WILL BLOW UP. That is not an issue with the manufacturer or their testing standards, that is what is known as an ID10T (pronounced I D ten T) error. The point is, ANY battery if used beyond it's specifications WILL blow up, even your precious Aspire batteries. I know this isn't going to change your mind so how about you use what you want and I will use what I want to and we can all drop it?

 

[BillW50]

The point is, ANY battery if used beyond it's specifications WILL blow up, even your precious Aspire batteries. I know this isn't going to change your mind so how about you use what you want and I will use what I want to and we can all drop it?

They are not my precious Aspire batteries. Secondly if you don't charge and discharge cells enough and do temperature testing them, they can suddenly through no fault of the user, explode.

Sure Scott, continue to tell people will that is a rare event, so don't worry. But if it happened to your face, it would be a big deal. There is a vaper here that used to work in construction. The battery powered tool blew up. Now he is disabled for life.

I care about safer batteries. Maybe you just don't care. But I think we should use every trick in the book to make them safer. Even using thicker wraps and baking them if necessary. If just one life is saved, it is all worth it.

 

[ScottP]

They are not my precious Aspire batteries. Secondly if you don't charge and discharge cells enough and do temperature testing them, they can suddenly through no fault of the user, explode.

Sure Scott, continue to tell people will that is a rare event, so don't worry. But if it happened to your face, it would be a big deal. There is a vaper here that used to work in construction. The battery powered tool blew up. Now he is disabled for life.

I care about safer batteries. Maybe you just don't care. But I think we should use every trick in the book to make them safer. Even using thicker wraps and baking them if necessary. If just one life is saved, it is all worth it.

What we are telling you is that those Aspire batteries are no safer than the more recommended 18650's. Even a battery tested in the manor as Aspire does can still break down later and have the same issue. I prefer to use batteries with tighter manufacturing standards than ones with looser standard but more testing. Again use what you want.

 

[BillW50]

What we are telling you is that those Aspire batteries are no safer than the more recommended 18650's. Even a battery tested in the manor as Aspire does can still break down later and have the same issue. I prefer to use batteries with tighter manufacturing standards than ones with looser standard but more testing. Again use what you want.

No Scott, you don't get it. Aspire use thick battery wraps. Vapers need thick wraps. To manufacture safer cells, you need to charge and discharge them enough and do temperature testing. Aspire does all of this. Others like Sony, Samsung, etc. does not. As Jay Whitacre said, what Sony and others don't do is the weed out the ones that can go boom! I don't know what you care about companies that don't care about your safety. Nor even care about vapers.

 

[ScottP]

No Scott, you don't get it. Aspire use thick battery wraps. Vapers need thick wraps.

What I am telling you is if that battery goes into thermal runaway a nano-meter thicker battery wrap isn't going to make any difference. If you really think it will help you can double, triple, or even quadruple wrap any battery you want. It's not going to make a difference but feel free to do it.

To manufacture safer cells, you need to charge and discharge them enough and do temperature testing.

Do you think Ford, Honda or any other car maker crash tests every car that comes off the assembly line? Of course not, testing is part of the R&D phase. In the case of lower cost products they do periodic spot checks and pull and fully test random samples.

As Jay Whitacre said, what Sony and others don't do is the weed out the ones that can go boom!

All batteries can go "boom!". Yes, even Aspire's.

I don't know what you care about companies that don't care about your safety. Nor even care about vapers.

If you think ANY company in any industry actually and truly cares about anything other than profits and the bottom line you are being naive. They only care about customers as far as they can get more money from them without being sued. Aspire is doing CYA testing.

 

[BillW50]

Nope, that "battery issue" was a case design flaw that caused the case to exert too much physical pressure on the battery which caused the issue with the Note 7's.

This is what I heard: "... The initial recall involved phones with batteries made by Samsung itself, ones that didn't have enough space between the battery's protective pouch and electrodes inside. That squeeze bent the electrodes in some batteries, causing them to come into contact and short-circuit." This would have been caught by Aspire's testing practices. As during temperature testing would have expanded the cells and the failure would have showed up.

And what about that Sony battery fiasco back in 2006. Then didn't they have another one somewhere around 2012? Then I heard Sony was getting out of the battery manufacturing business and they would only buy cells made by other companies and rewrap them as Sony batteries. But later, I never heard anything more about this.

 

[BillW50]

What I am telling you is if that battery goes into thermal runaway a nano-meter thicker battery wrap isn't going to make any difference. If you really think it will help you can double, triple, or even quadruple wrap any battery you want. It's not going to make a difference but feel free to do it.

Do you think Ford, Honda or any other car maker crash tests every car that comes off the assembly line? Of course not, testing is part of the R&D phase. In the case of lower cost products they do periodic spot checks and pull and fully test random samples.

All batteries can go "boom!". Yes, even Aspire's.

If you think ANY company in any industry actually and truly cares about anything other than profits and the bottom line you are being naive. They only care about customers as far as they can get more money from them without being sued. Aspire is doing CYA testing.

I know all this Scott! But you don't seem to understand. They use poor testing methods. And because of their poor testing, defective batteries are released to the market.

I don't know why you are so against manufactures using safer testing practices or using thicker battery wraps. Maybe you are just evil like we know who.

As far I know, Aspire has never had a battery recall. But companies like Samsung, Sony, and others have. Ever wonder why that is?

 

[ScottP]

Maybe you are just evil like we know who.

Now you are just trolling. So I am out.

 

[BillW50]

Now you are just trolling. So I am out.

Trolling! No way! Asking for better manufacturing testing practices and thicker battery wraps and that is not trolling. But you defending poor testing practices and super thin battery wraps is definitely trolling material.

 

[Mooch]

Yes Mooch. Believe what you want. Want to catch those cells what Jay Whitacre talked about, this needs to be done. If Samsung did this too, they wouldn't have had those exploding Samsung's Galaxy Note 7 cell fiasco. To be safe, this should be a must! There are too many exploding cells that vapers are using that are made by Samsung, Sony, Panasonic/Sanyo, etc. They don't filter out cells they manufactured that can have a catastrophic failure. They don't even care about vapers and clearly state their cells are not for use in electronic cigarettes. Because if they did care, they would need to test them like Aspire does and use far better wraps. Thank goodness one battery company actually cares about vapers. We need more like them.

It’s a whole lot more than just believing what I want. I’ve done years of testing.

Those Galaxy Note 7 cells were pouch LiPo’s, a completely different form factor and chemistry than what we use. The problem was not just the cells either. Samsung has made millions and millions of cylindrical cells with astoundingly low failure rates.

Cells explode because vapers short-circuit them, not because of internal defects. How would you have theses companies sort out these alleged explosion-prone cells? Store them for two months? Think about it...that only needs to be done if you’re worried your cells will explode and only Aspire does this...hmm.

Your saying that we can all vape safely if we just store our batteries for two months to see if they blow up or not in storage?

Aspire has to test them because they have such poor process control. They need to weed out all the bad ones. Samsung, Sony, etc., test every single battery too but don’t need to tie up millions of cells in warehouses for two months because their failure rate is so low.

Samsung, Sony, etc., has astoundingly strict QC and sort out and grade every cell a hell of a lot more carefully than Aspire does. Aspire’s cells exhibit the typical huge spread in performance, capacity, and operating temperature that China manufactured cells do. No Samsung, Sony, etc., group of cells exhibits anywhere near this bad a spread in cell-to-cell performance.

Please, buy Aspire if you want. I completely support that! But you have no science, no data to support your statements.

 

[Mooch]

Trolling! No way! Asking for better manufacturing testing practices and thicker battery wraps and that is not trolling. But you defending poor testing practices and super thin battery wraps is definitely trolling material.

Thicker wraps? How?
I would love to see that but even Aspire gives us the same crappy thin wraps. Why? Because there’s no room for thicker wraps.

Putting batteries in a room for two months is not a good testing practice. It’s just a way to catch their exploding cells before they leave the factory...hopefully. Good practice is having good enough process control to not need to store cells for such a stunningly long time before they can be sold.

 

[Mooch]

I know all this Scott! But you don't seem to understand. They use poor testing methods. And because of their poor testing, defective batteries are released to the market.

I don't know why you are so against manufactures using safer testing practices or using thicker battery wraps. Maybe you are just evil like we know who.

As far I know, Aspire has never had a battery recall. But companies like Samsung, Sony, and others have. Ever wonder why that is?

Aspire just issued a frakkin’ recall for two of their cells due to exaggerated ratings and incorrect temperature and ratings data on their paper inserts! Every one of their two new cells sitting in their Aspire USA warehouse is being shipped back for rewrapping. They made HUGE safety and ratings errors with them.

 

[dripster]

They are not my precious Aspire batteries.

Right. Your TC is the only thing that can ever be precious to you.

 

[KurtVD]

I like 26ga SS316L, about 3.25" will get you .5Ω which is the right range for good TC controls.

Actually getting .2Ω with NI200 is pretty good, and because you have 30ga. See where I said ~3" of 26ga would be .07Ω. That ~4" would take ~10" of 26ga.

You might find 24ga too thick for the tank. But, since you have it, give it a whirl. If you don't like the results, pick up some 27ga and perhaps some 26ga I've found 27ga is a nice balance between too thin to work with and to get reasonable resistance and to thick to get the coil I'm wanting.

Thanks. I've ordered a spool of 24ga and 28ga SS316L from fasttech, since they didn't seem to have anything in between in stock (or I haven't found it). I'm looking forward to receive it, hopefully TC will work as well as with NI200 (somewhere in a thread I've read that Arctic Fox and TC with SS316 didn't work well).

 

[dripster]

It’s a whole lot more than just believing what I want. I’ve done years of testing.

Now, that's what I call rigorous science, as science isn't about white and black. Rather, it is about reducing that which is unknown or not fully understood, and to get a handle on whether our conclusions are still correct, and, that also is why I thoroughly believe you are really very far from doing it wrong.

 

[BillW50]

It’s a whole lot more than just believing what I want. I’ve done years of testing.

So have I, since the late 90's when I first started seeing them in laptops and RC vehicles.

Those Galaxy Note 7 cells were pouch LiPo’s, a completely different form factor and chemistry than what we use. The problem was not just the cells either. Samsung has made millions and millions of cylindrical cells with astoundingly low failure rates.

Yes the problem was the just the cells. "... The initial recall involved phones with batteries made by Samsung itself, ones that didn't have enough space between the battery's protective pouch and electrodes inside. That squeeze bent the electrodes in some batteries, causing them to come into contact and short-circuit."

Cells explode because vapers short-circuit them, not because of internal defects. How would you have theses companies sort out these alleged explosion-prone cells? Store them for two months? Think about it...that only needs to be done if you’re worried your cells will explode and only Aspire does this...hmm.

No, cells just doesn't only explode by vapers short-circuiting them. They can also explode because the cells separator is too thin and/or materials having imperfections during the manufacturing process. Which in turn can cause an internal short between the anode and cathode.

Your saying that we can all vape safely if we just store our batteries for two months to see if they blow up or not in storage?

Absolutely not. They should stress test them before the consumer gets them.

Aspire has to test them because they have such poor process control. They need to weed out all the bad ones. Samsung, Sony, etc., test every single battery too but don’t need to tie up millions of cells in warehouses for two months because their failure rate is so low.

Yeah, so poor that not one Aspire battery of exploding due to a manufacturing fault right?

Samsung, Sony, etc., has astoundingly strict QC and sort out and grade every cell a hell of a lot more carefully than Aspire does. Aspire’s cells exhibit the typical huge spread in performance, capacity, and operating temperature that China manufactured cells do. No Samsung, Sony, etc., group of cells exhibits anywhere near this bad a spread in cell-to-cell performance

Well the reports I get this isn't so at all. As materials have been used with imperfections, plates manufactured with jagged ends, poor insulation, too thin separators, etc. has all caused cells to go thermal.

But you have no science, no data to support your statements.

Sure I do Mooch. I even used a reference in this very post alone and like many other posts I done.

 

[BillW50]

Right. Your TC is the only thing that can ever be precious to you.

Actually no, I am currently vaping on my Pulse BF Box Mod. No regulation here.