TC: Any reason against it?

[KurtVD]

I can get both fast ramp up and peak temp right where I want it without risk of overheating by using a custom power curve in ArcticFox

Thanks, that was a great tip! At first, I wasn't sure how to activate/upload the desired power curve, but it seems that it's sufficient to just click it once and upload the new settings afterwards (I edited it a little before).

This new power curve (I use "cooldown" with modifications) is really what I wanted when I got interested in TC: Being able to draw a little (or a lot) longer without burning my lips.

That way, my istick Pico has become a lot more useful all of a sudden. Cool, since I like its compact size and design

 

[dripster]

deleted

 

[dripster]

I forgot to mention one thing. To prevent ArticFox from occasionally jumping into TC mode whilst also becoming stuck in TC mode, set "Smart Mode" to disabled in the NToolbox (and don't forget to click on the Upload button again after that).

The custom curve that I use is this:
Time: 0.0 Pct: 110
Time: 0.1 Pct: 122
Time: 0.2 Pct: 128
Time: 0.3 Pct: 124
Time: 0.4 Pct: 108
Time: 0.5 Pct: 100

 

[KurtVD]

The custom curve that I use is this:
Time: 0.0 Pct: 110
Time: 0.1 Pct: 122
Time: 0.2 Pct: 128
Time: 0.3 Pct: 124
Time: 0.4 Pct: 108
Time: 0.5 Pct: 100

Interesting...I’m not at home right now, so I can’t look it up, but I’m starting at a 100 and step down to 95 after 2 seconds (I think), after which I step down an additional 5% every 0.5 seconds until I’m at 75%.
I don’t quite get why you are over a 100% for the first 4 seconds? Why don’t you just vape with a little more power instead and go below 100 at the end?

 

[dripster]

Interesting...I’m not at home right now, so I can’t look it up, but I’m starting at a 100 and step down to 95 after 2 seconds (I think), after which I step down an additional 5% every 0.5 seconds until I’m at 75%.
I don’t quite get why you are over a 100% for the first 4 seconds? Why don’t you just vape with a little more power instead and go below 100 at the end?

For the first 0.4 seconds, not the first 4 seconds. (You can adjust the time scale of the graphical representation in NToolbox by clicking on the button in the top right corner of the curve editor window.) For me, the aim is to just accelerate the ramp up of the coils, in VW mode as opposed to going into TC mode, i.e. similar to how a simple preheat normally works in VW mode, but custom-tailored to my own personal taste by making it feel smoother (i.e. by transitioning from the preheat onto the remainder of the puff in a more gradual fashion as opposed to simply terminating the preheat abruptly), and whilst factoring in other things such as prolonging the life expectancy of my advanced coil builds (i.e. by taming down the additional power output a tad during the first 0.2 seconds of the preheat in order to avoid creating a too excessively strong temperature shock, as that's what I get for being the high wattage vaper that I am), and prolonging the time it takes before my batteries run too low for my mod (Reuleaux RX300) to still be capable to deliver the additional power output required to sustain the curve in question (because, with the RX300 at just 180 watts on the 24mm Goon RDA, using up as much as sixteen fully charged Sony VTC5A batteries in just a single day turned out to be, how shall I try to put this... ehhhhm... perfectly normal ).

 

[KurtVD]

For the first 0.4 seconds, not the first 4 seconds. (You can adjust the time scale of the graphical representation in NToolbox by clicking on the button in the top right corner of the curve editor window.) For me, the aim is to just accelerate the ramp up of the coils, in VW mode as opposed to going into TC mode, i.e. similar to how a simple preheat normally works in VW mode, but custom-tailored to my own personal taste by making it feel smoother (i.e. by transitioning from the preheat onto the remainder of the puff in a more gradual fashion as opposed to simply terminating the preheat abruptly), and whilst factoring in other things such as prolonging the life expectancy of my advanced coil builds (i.e. by taming down the additional power output a tad during the first 0.2 seconds of the preheat in order to avoid creating a too excessively strong temperature shock, as that's what I get for being the high wattage vaper that I am), and prolonging the time it takes before my batteries run too low for my mod (Reuleaux RX300) to still be capable to deliver the additional power output required to sustain the curve in question (because, with the RX300 at just 180 watts on the 24mm Goon RDA, using up as much as sixteen fully charged Sony VTC5A batteries in just a single day turned out to be, how shall I try to put this... ehhhhm... perfectly normal ).

I see...hehe

I had to fine tune my power curve too, after I realized that an average puff takes just about 2 seconds. It's a great tool, it really enhances my vaping experience!

 

[Myk]

I can get both fast ramp up and peak temp right where I want it without risk of overheating by using a custom power curve in ArcticFox. It's simpler to use than TC because the curve automatically scales correctly with the wattage in VW mode, and, it works with Nichrome 80, which, right off the bat, ramps up and cools down faster than SS so that makes the curve an even more effective choice compared to TC, and, for me, TC either just vapes the same as VW or else it makes for an anemic vape experience. But I'm with @suprtrkr on this because mech mods are all I ever use nowadays excepting only every once in a blue moon when I feel like doing something opposite to what I always do.

Curve does not avoid overheating like working TC does. It is also not easier to set up than a mod that reads ohms right.
I used curves before they were called curves. They will burn a dry wick. Working TC will not. Spend the day pocket firing a curve and you'll likely have a burnt wick. Not with TC, it should not even burn a dry piece of cotton when set up right.
Working TC knows the difference between getting to temperature and a dry wick. Curve just fires.
SMOK tried to sell a preprogrammed curve as TC, they ripped me off, they will never sell me another mod. They are not the same thing.

Ramp up and cool down is a gauge issue. Drop one wire gauge and SS316L becomes faster than NI80.

TC should be much smoother than VW. Given that you like mechs I'm guessing you like a little aldehyde with your vape and the anemic TC vape was probably set up right. The TC the same as VW wasn't.
It's OK for you to have your preferences but you sure do go to lengths to justify it.

 

[dripster]

Curve does not avoid overheating like working TC does. It is also not easier to set up than a mod that reads ohms right.
I used curves before they were called curves. They will burn a dry wick. Working TC will not. Spend the day pocket firing a curve and you'll likely have a burnt wick. Not with TC, it should not even burn a dry piece of cotton when set up right.
Working TC knows the difference between getting to temperature and a dry wick. Curve just fires.
SMOK tried to sell a preprogrammed curve as TC, they ripped me off, they will never sell me another mod. They are not the same thing.

Ramp up and cool down is a gauge issue. Drop one wire gauge and SS316L becomes faster than NI80.

TC should be much smoother than VW. Given that you like mechs I'm guessing you like a little aldehyde with your vape and the anemic TC vape was probably set up right. The TC the same as VW wasn't.
It's OK for you to have your preferences but you sure do go to lengths to justify it.

Learning to vape in wattage mode without overheating it compares to learning to ride a bicycle without falling over. Once you know how to do both, that's when you'll understand the fact vaping in TC mode compares to riding a bicycle with training wheels.

TC doesn't work with Nichrome 80. Ramp up and cool down is not necessarily always a gauge issue, as changing the gauge also is changing other important characteristics of the vape experience (and that possibly also includes changing the flavor production), not necessarily always for the better, and the same applies to changing the metal types so, for me, advanced coil building is all about exploring a whole world of different options rather than to create a sandboxed world that offers fewer options to explore.

An advanced coil build can have more than just a single metal type in it, and, even if it uses only one, differences in temperature between the various different areas that make up the coils, the complex nature of heat transfer paths between the various wrap wires crossing eachother and interlinked with the various core wires with various channels in between for juice to flow in multiple patterns at multiple temperatures creates a changing resistance behavior type at the legs of the coils where it is measured that cannot always be used to accurately reflect those temperatures so it misrepresents the hottest areas in the surface of the coils. Aldehydes in my vape are not among my own preferences.

It's OK for you to misunderstand complex vapor production of complex coils, and, you are entitled to your own personal method to measure the lengths to unjustify it.

 

[dripster]

Here's a stylized picture of another one of my several reasons I have against TC.

 

[Myk]

Learning to vape in wattage mode without overheating it compares to learning to ride a bicycle without falling over. Once you know how to do both, that's when you'll understand the fact vaping in TC mode compares to riding a bicycle with training wheels.

TC doesn't work with Nichrome 80. Ramp up and cool down is not necessarily always a gauge issue, as changing the gauge also is changing other important characteristics of the vape experience (and that possibly also includes changing the flavor production), not necessarily always for the better, and the same applies to changing the metal types so, for me, advanced coil building is all about exploring a whole world of different options rather than to create a sandboxed world that offers fewer options to explore.

An advanced coil build can have more than just a single metal type in it, and, even if it uses only one, differences in temperature between the various different areas that make up the coils, the complex nature of heat transfer paths between the various wrap wires crossing eachother and interlinked with the various core wires with various channels in between for juice to flow in multiple patterns at multiple temperatures creates a changing resistance behavior type at the legs of the coils where it is measured that cannot always be used to accurately reflect those temperatures so it misrepresents the hottest areas in the surface of the coils. Aldehydes in my vape are not among my own preferences.

It's OK for you to misunderstand complex vapor production of complex coils, and, you are entitled to your own personal method to measure the lengths to unjustify it.

Sorry but ramp up and cool down is a function of heat capacity and if you compare 26ga NI80 to 27ga SS316L the heat capacity and heat flux is roughly the same with SS being on the faster side. Yes if SS is too slow for you changing the gauge slightly would change important things, like speed it up.
I'm sorry but that's science, deal with it.
I don't mind if you don't like something about SS or all TC wires but don't make stuff up to justify your choice. I can believe those that don't like aspects of certain metals. That is personal opinion. I hate NI200's taste and TI gets gunked too fast, those are my opinions based on my experience. I even hate the taste of NI80, I don't mind if you love it (and that would be a better excuse).
Science is not open for opinions.

And you weren't talking about "advanced" coil builds. You claimed curve = TC, which it doesn't. You claimed heat capacity, which can be adjusted.
I think curves were great way back in ancient times when eVics were stick mods and there wasn't any TC, but they are far from being the same as TC. Give me your set up, I'll overheat it using curve because there is nothing to stop it from overheating. That was the problem with SMOK's fake TC mod.

Mods don't have training wheels. But if they did, they should be on the mechs you insist on.
Think of them like cars and TC is like cruise control. You go up a hill it adjusts, you go down a hill it adjusts. All you have to do is enjoy the ride.

Nice coils.
Take a puff, now quickly take another puff. Are the puffs the same?
Keep pressing your fire button until the wicks are dry and keep pressing. Now what happened?
Know what happens with my staggered fused TC build if I take consecutive puffs? They're the same.
Know what happens if I run the wick dry and keep on trying to vape? Nothing.
I can even vary my puffs based on mood just like I did when I smoked. Long slow puff or a fast puff doesn't matter because TC adjusts for the airflow rather than the airflow needing to be adjusted.

 

[BillW50]

I don't even need a VW mod; I can do it on a mech. For me, I've been doing it so long now it's no trouble at all. In fact, it would feel odd to build a coil for anything without considering thermal mass and ramp time and surface radiated power and so forth.

VW mods, I have to constantly adjust the watts, based on how hot the coils are currently. What a PIA. And don't get me started with mechs. That 1 volt voltage drop drives me nuts (4.2v draining down to 3.2v). How do you put up with vaping when your voltage can vary by 25%?

While there isn't much in the way of a downside (now Ni200 wire has been rightfully consigned to the dustbin of history) there are plusses and minuses.

Don't believe it! I still use nickel about half of the time. And also many non-TC coils still use nickel legs.

If all you want TC to do is stop getting dry hits, a cheap board and pretty much any old middle-of-the-road settings will do.

Do not believe it! I bought two Aegis Legends and in TC mode, they burn cotton and juice every time. They swing up like 100°F passed the set temp and then swing down to about 50°F lower than the set temp. Then slowly creep up to the set temperature. Many cheap mods also behave somewhat poorer too.

 

[BillW50]

My RX200 and one of my VTCs look completely different now.

People actually still use those RX200s? I bought two when they first came out and the TC was horrible. Thanks to the RX200, they got me to try DNAs. Then I heard one story about one guy was going to sleep and then smelled smoke. He turned on the light and his RX200 was just sitting there smoking. Then I removed the batteries from my RX200 mods and I never used them again. I only used my RX200 for about three weeks in total and that was it.

 

[BillW50]

I like the Hit I get from VV/VW Better than the Hit I get from TC. It isn't Monumentally Better. But Better (for Me) none the Less. And running in VV/VW is "Glitchless".

Don't believe it. You can adjust TC for a power dominant vape to give you exactly the same vape as VV/VW does. In fact, Evolv's Replay does this in power mode.

And VV/VW is a PIA since you have to keep fiddling with the adjustment based on the temperature difference between the room vs. coil temperature.

 

[BillW50]

I mostly TC vape and I can tweak the hit to be exactly the way I want it. Coil building is the same as normal, but you have lower ohm coil. One thing to be aware of is tank conductivity. Variances in resistance mechanically or by temperature can make it have hot or cold spikes. I test new tanks to see if it meets my personal spec of no more than 0.002 ohm of deviance. More than once I’ve pulled a new tank apart and polished the connecting parts and especially threads to fix the issue. Once you get setup in TC mode there just isn’t a downside to it. I use 316L stainless in a Troll RTA and never have any issues. You will want a mod that rates well for TC use.

This is so true for TC mods. But not true of Replay mods. As Replay doesn't base vaping on what it thinks the coil temperature is at now. But based on everything, every connection, every wire type, any room temperature, even accounts for the individual TCR of your atty, etc. So all that finicky part of TC is tossed out the window with Replay.

 

[BillW50]

Here's a stylized picture of another one of my several reasons I have against TC.

View attachment 760347

Why does this give you a reason against TC?

 

[ShowerHead]

Learning to vape in wattage mode...

Woohoo! Great humor!!!
More like this for an early Monday morning.
Laugh? Thought I'd die.
Complex coils, training wheels, complex vapor production. Ha, ha, ha.
Stop it, you're killing me.

Replay or TC on a quality mod. Its an inescapable conclusion.
Except for those who wish to create a 'secret vaping knowledge needed' mystique.

 

[dripster]

Sorry but ramp up and cool down is a function of heat capacity and if you compare 26ga NI80 to 27ga SS316L the heat capacity and heat flux is roughly the same with SS being on the faster side. Yes if SS is too slow for you changing the gauge slightly would change important things, like speed it up.
I'm sorry but that's science, deal with it.

You can change 26g Ni80 to 27g Ni80 and get even faster ramp up compared to 27g SS316L so what's your whole point? Changing the gauge of core wires also changes the surface area of the coil so why should we necessarily always change it, always, as in, also each time when we are certain that we don't want to? The same also applies to the cavities between the wrap wire and those same core wires. Using thinner wire doesn't necesssarily always make it vape better. The claim that it necessarily always does is just an old myth. Only the person who does the actual vaping on it in order to determine the resulting combination of effects has the capability to make the final decision that matters to science. So deal with it.

I don't mind if you don't like something about SS or all TC wires but don't make stuff up to justify your choice.

You're the one who is making stuff up by claiming ramp up is a gauge issue, when, for reasons that are plenty obvious, the scientific reality (and unscientific reality, for that matter...) is that ramp up is not solely determined by gauge.

I can believe those that don't like aspects of certain metals. That is personal opinion. I hate NI200's taste and TI gets gunked too fast, those are my opinions based on my experience. I even hate the taste of NI80, I don't mind if you love it (and that would be a better excuse).
Science is not open for opinions.

Science is not open for opinions. Yet, despite that, by claiming ramp up is a gauge issue, as per my above logical explanation, your own closed-minded assumption is how you are touting your own personal opinion as fact.

And you weren't talking about "advanced" coil builds.

Last time I checked, you weren't talking about "basic" coils. GrimmGreen has a video on YouTube in which he explains in good detail that just about everyone can make fused claptons so I think we can safely say that, basically, you don't know you prefer basic until you've gone through the effort it takes to compare both "types", and, as far as I'm concerned, when I say "effort", training wheels in cohort with putting more effort into propelling fake definitions of science compared to the effort you're putting into comparing coil performance by vaping, isn't exactly what I had in mind.

You claimed curve = TC, which it doesn't.

I never made that particular claim. Instead, I claimed that I can use a custom power curve to make my coils ramp up faster without overheating anything, DESPITE the fact I'm not using TC.

You claimed heat capacity, which can be adjusted.

Like I already tried to explain a few times, by using TC you rule out Ni80, which has a lower volumetric heat capacity than SS316L. (The volumetric heat capacity of a given metal type can be calculated by looking up the heat capacity, also known as specific heat, in the datasheet of the metal type, and then multiplying this with the density of the metal type.) Watt for watt, given the same wire thickness and length (i.e. given the same volume, measured in cubic millimeters or cubic inches), Ni80 does heat up faster than SS316L, for better or worse. But by ruling out Ni80 you rule out the possibility that Ni80 can be a better choice [than changing to slightly higher gauge in cohort with changing from Ni80 to SS316L] so that's called cheating like a 5-year old kid and then whining because you got caught. I.e., not science.

I think curves were great way back in ancient times when eVics were stick mods and there wasn't any TC, but they are far from being the same as TC. Give me your set up, I'll overheat it using curve because there is nothing to stop it from overheating. That was the problem with SMOK's fake TC mod.

Just because you can't build coils that don't overheat in wattage mode after you vape on them in such a way that they don't overheat, using a suitable atomizer, wattage setting, airflow settings, wicking style, and type of juice to also ensure that they don't, doesn't mean everybody else can't. Therefore IMO my sarcastic description of "training wheels" wasn't too far away from truth, all personal preferences aside.

Mods don't have training wheels. But if they did, they should be on the mechs you insist on.

Not on the mechs I insist on, nor on the mechs you STILL wouldn't know how to use even after someone DID put training wheels on them. Because all you talk about science when you couldn't produce an ounce of science.

Think of them like cars and TC is like cruise control. You go up a hill it adjusts, you go down a hill it adjusts. All you have to do is enjoy the ride.

You move your balance to the left, the left training wheel adjusts. You move your balance to the right, the right training wheel adjusts. All you have to do is enjoy the ride.

Nice coils.

Thanks. Not the nicest coils that I've ever built, but the goal I had in mind at the time when I built them was to just find out what the performance of such a build would be like if using it in such a way that performance would stand a reasonable chance, according to my knowledge based on my own personal experience that is, to not be hampered too much by the set of parameters I had envisioned so in fact these coils are nothing more than an experiment for me to learn something that I hadn't already learned from past experiences.

Take a puff, now quickly take another puff. Are the puffs the same?

They don't need to be the same, or at least they don't need to be PERFECTLY the same. But if TC is causing the first puff to be an unsatisfying one, then I can only HOPE the next puff won't be the same.

Keep pressing your fire button until the wicks are dry and keep pressing. Now what happened?

I'll tell you what happened. You goofed, as you shouldn't have kept pressing your fire button after the wicks were dry, but you don't need TC in order to learn how to not goof. Well, maybe you do. But not me, as I already learned that, and I did so by using wattage mode, not TC. Almost every vaper that I have met has learned it that way. There used to be a time when TC didn't even exist yet so, back then, everyone had to do it that way. I'm not saying everyone could, or can, or should. Just that you shouldn't be blaming wattage mode suggesting to others that, when compared to TC, it will be useless to them for the fact that you can't seem to figure out how to use it. Just like TC aposthles shouldn't create the impression that everyone who doesn't like TC necessarily always is using a mod that can't properly handle TC or else they must necessarily always be doing something else wrong like using it improperly or inadequately to yield the best TC results.

Know what happens with my staggered fused TC build if I take consecutive puffs? They're the same.
Know what happens if I run the wick dry and keep on trying to vape? Nothing.

Know what happens if I try to explain to people why I don't like TC, besides an avalanche of fake old arguments? Nothing. Know what happens to those arguments if I point out why they're old and fake? They're the same.

I can even vary my puffs based on mood just like I did when I smoked. Long slow puff or a fast puff doesn't matter because TC adjusts for the airflow rather than the airflow needing to be adjusted.

 

[dripster]

Why does this give you a reason against TC?

Because it uses Ni80 and nothing but Ni80?

 

[Zaryk]

Wow, I saw a one sided debate going down in this thread, then remembered I put dripster on ignore. Took him off and BAM, it was like the floodgates opened.

Quite funny watching him a argue his opinions as if they are facts. Like a picture of an unbalanced wicking job shows something negative about TC.

 

[BillW50]

Because it uses Ni80 and nothing but Ni80?

It doesn't matter. Ni80 still has a TCR (small but it is there), your atty has it's own TCR, and the copper wires to the 510 has a TCR, and the 510 also has its own TCR.

You might say whoa Bill, that is a lot to figure out. Yes at first it is intimating. But it doesn't take long before you can start by taking wild guesses and get pretty close from to get go. And you might say well ok, but far too complicated. Well ok, but there is Replay that throws all of this out the window. Nothing to figure out. Just adjust wattage until you get your favorite vape and save. All done.