TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[dwcraig1]

My 26 gauge 50 meters of $10 FT no grade Ti has shipped, in a couple of weeks I'll be saying how good or bad it is.

 

[WileE]

I Have been working with Alloy 52 for some time now & It's Great. Educating people on how to properly use it is another story On the version I'm working with Dry cotton just starts turning light brown when set to 330°F on a dna-40 or approximately 73% the temp of Ni 200 dry burn test set to 450°F. As has been discussed about the Resistherm vs NiFe70 vs Alloy 120, they're all a little different. Same goes for NiFe 52 AKA Perniffer 52, Glass seal 52, Alloy 52, Nilo 52, Nifethal 52, Carpenter 52 etc. The nickel content varies from 50.5 - 52% along with variations in the trace elements. The Advantages of NiFe 52 vs 70 are as The Bloke pointed out, much higher resistance Almost double that of NiFe 70 & 4.5 x more than Ni200. Another big advantage is that at <52% Nickel content it's quite possible that those with Nickel sensitivities will be able to use it. I'd love to know if anyone is aware of someone with a Nickel sensitivities successfully using Resitherm @70% Nickel.
With the lower TCR it increases the resistance range for max power on any TC mod. That's really important since were now talking about temp control with "resistance wire". We need to be able to start with higher initial cold resistance.
The down side is that you can easily build a coil/coils with both mass & resistance, thus quickly outpacing a 40 watt device. Looks like the down side will be short lived though with all the new high powered TC devices

Bloke - If your Game I've got an experiment in mind for you. I think NiFe alloy coils should be only be used in VV mode if run on a VV-VW device. It seems the only device I don't own is a non TC, VV-VW device to test this theory. With Alloy 52 or even 120 it's easy to build a coil at an appropriate resistance level , say .4Ω that allows the atty to be interchanged between Temp control, VV-VW devices, or even a tube mech. I have tested a Kayfun with a 9 wrap 28ga A52 coiled on 2mm mandrel that is .42 Ω. It works great in TC mode on a DNA-40 & works really well on a 18650 tube mech. On the mech it fires at 40watts @ 4.1v with a .42Ω @68°F coil raising to .8Ω at 450°F at which point it's only drawing 20 watts (same as a traditional kanthal A1 .8 Kayfun build).

So My theory "2 heads are not always better then 1" The A52 coil becomes an analog processor on a tube mech due to ohms law, however when installed on a VW device set to watt mode I think the "2" processors work against each other. My understanding is that most if not all non TC, VV-VW devices check initial atty ohm & then calculate the Fixed Voltage required to deliver the set watts. I think what will happen is the coil will fire cold at the fixed volts required for your initial desired watt & then due to ohms law the power/watts will be cut in a detrimental way ending up at about half of what you want when the coil gets to temp.

Ex. Using the tube mod example above, I know I like vaping a .8Ω on a kayfun at 4.1v & So with A52 I build the coil @.42Ω for the desired hot resistance of .8Ω & get the added benefits of a pre-heat boost (40 watts on cold coil). The boost is needed because My .42Ω A52 coil is roughly twice the mass (.8158gr) of the equivalent .8Ω Kanthal A1 coil (.3964gr). Now if I put my Kayfun on a VW device and set it to the wattage I like to vape at (20watts), the device will see the initial resistance .42Ω & lock the voltage at 2.9V. Now my coil will fire cold at 20 watt with a really slow ramp up since it's double the mass coupled with the fact that the non TC device does not "I think" monitor resistance in VW mode so I wind up vaping at 10 watts when & if the coil ever gets to temp.

I have confirmed that a DNA-40 even in watt mode monitors resistance dynamically to maintain set watts. I have a video of DNA-40 screen firing A52 from cold to glow in watt mode. Voltage follows resistance in real time. It keeps up just fine. Now if I could just figure out how to upload or embed a video??

 

[TheBloke]

Ni200. It has incredibly low resistance, which uses more power/battery and limits use of some builds, thicker wires, twisted wires, dual coils, and so on.

Its ultra low resistance maximises errors from static resistance in atomizers and builds, potentially causing 10s of °C (up to hundreds of °F) of inaccuracy, where a higher base resistance would experience far less.

Its TCR is high, but it's also very non-linear compared to its rivals.

The low resistance means thin wire must be used, which is weak and hard to work with.

It's potentially toxic. Some people are allergic to it. Some people report bad taste.

It is in every possible way the worst TC wire. But we knew all that. My question is....

Conspiracy theory! Did Evolv choose it precisely because of its non-linear TCR? Did they look at the TC wires and pick one they thought might be hardest for other mod makers to replicate, because it's not a single value but rather a curve that (they thought) had to be replicated exactly to work well?

I'm very much in favour of the maxim "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity (or ignorance)". It's quite possible they just didn't realise all of the above disadvantages, and picked a wire that was already somewhat known to vapers (as "no resistance" wire for some atomizers).

I hope it's that, and not that they wanted to implement a less linear wire to stymie the competition. But damn, they sure picked a bad wire. A+ bringing TC to the market, but D- for choice of carrier wire.

 

[balazsk]

/
So the question is, is NiFe52 just as good for vaping as NiFe70 / Alloy 120 / Resistherm NiFe30? It's definitely different - all the other wires we've looked at are 30% Ni, this is 52%.

If I'm not wrong Nifethal 70 and NiFe30 contain about 70% Ni and 30% Fe.
So from this point of view Nifethal 52 is better if we accept that the lower Nickel content is better. And there is Nifethal 36 too what contains less Ni. This one has lower TCR accordingly (0.0026 between 20 and 250°C, if I remember well).
The huge difference of TCR is strange between Resistherm and Nifethal70 because both of them contain the same amount of Ni and Fe based on their datasheets.


Sorry guys for my English, it's night.

 

[TheBloke]

I Have been working with Alloy 52 for some time now & It's Great. Educating people on how to properly use it is another story On the version I'm working with Dry cotton just starts turning light brown when set to 330°F on a DNA-40 or approximately 73% the temp of Ni 200 dry burn test set to 450°F. As has been discussed about the Resistherm vs NiFe70 vs Alloy 120, they're all a little different. Same goes for NiFe 52 AKA Perniffer 52, Glass seal 52, Alloy 52, Nilo 52, Nifethal 52, Carpenter 52 etc. The nickel content varies from 50.5 - 52% along with variations in the trace elements. The Advantages of NiFe 52 vs 70 are as The Bloke pointed out, much higher resistance Almost double that of NiFe 70 & 4.5 x more than Ni200. Another big advantage is that at <52% Nickel content it's quite possible that those with Nickel sensitivities will be able to use it. I'd love to know if anyone is aware of someone with a Nickel sensitivities successfully using Resitherm @70% Nickel.
With the lower TCR it increases the resistance range for max power on any TC mod. That's really important since were now talking about temp control with "resistance wire". We need to be able to start with higher initial cold resistance.
The down side is that you can easily build a coil/coils with both mass & resistance, thus quickly outpacing a 40 watt device. Looks like the down side will be short lived though with all the new high powered TC devices

Wow, awesome you have experience of this already! Where did you buy it from?

All these other alloys you mention - Glass Seal 52 etc - do you have experience of them as well? Are you in the industry, or are you just even more crazy about buying wires than I am?

You make a good point about % specifications, I hadn't even thought about that. I know from experience that Ni200's TCR can vary hugely - I have spools that, on a standard Ni200 mod, give me expected temp, and which when temp tested on my Dicodes with the expected "average" TCR of 0.006 also met temp. I have other spools where I have to use a temperature offset on normal mods, and which required a TCR of 0.0045 on the Dicodes!

I attributed this to the tiny difference between 99.0% and 99.6% Ni200 spec. A difference of 50.5% - 52% is even bigger in NiFe 52, so I wonder if we're going to see very different TCRs across different brands? Not a big deal right now if we get it from one source - ie ZiVipf - but definitely something to watch out for. Thanks for the heads up!

Regarding power on a 40W: good point, however Titanium has both a lower TCR (0.0035) and a higher starting resistance (my standard coil build with 26G is around 0.45Ω), and I have no problem using it on many 40W mods, including the DNA 40 and DNA 40 clones.

I also vape 24G Titanium coils also without problems on 40W mods, and these have quite a bit of mass.

Yes, more and more powerful mods are coming now, so if there is an issue it will not last long. But the DNA 40 and clones are not dead yet, I think.

So My theory "2 heads are not always better then 1" The A52 coil becomes an analog processor on a tube mech due to ohms law, however when installed on a VW device set to watt mode I think the "2" processors work against each other. My understanding is that most if not all non TC, VV-VW devices check initial atty ohm & then calculate the Fixed Voltage required to deliver the set watts. I think what will happen is the coil will fire cold at the fixed volts required for your initial desired watt & then due to ohms law the power/watts will be cut in a detrimental way ending up at about half of what you want when the coil gets to temp.

I think I can answer this immediately:

1. Mech, as you said, is automatic and mechanical - rising resistance means falling power because of ohms law. It's like a natural, primitive form of TC.
2. Again as you supposed, a DNA 40 (and in fact all Evolv chips since the Darwin) re-reads the resistance regularly in VW mode, such that it also adjusts its power for the rising resistance.
   1. Brandon @ Evolv has told me personally that their chips do this, and that they will provide a constant-power vape on wire such as Resistherm, NiFe52 etc, where the resistance rises.
3. Other mods are not guaranteed to do this, and it was Brandon's view that most other mods do not do it.
   1. Of course he is biased, and will naturally assume his competitors are crap
   2. However I think he has a point, and certainly many of the Chinese devices have kept things as simple as possible.
   3. I know for certain that many of my VW mods simply take the resistance reading at the start of the vape in VW mode and do not re-sample it.
   4. There may be the odd exception, but I don't know which they might be, and so it's safe to assume that any non-Evolv VW device will exhibit this behaviour: you will not get a constant power vape in VW mode except on Evolv devices and mechs
4. Yes a VV mode would solve that problem, if you can find a mod that has it!
   1. I have exactly one mod with that mode, my first ever, the iStick 50.
   2. I am sure there are many older mods still being sold that have it.
5. Would you like me to test my Dicodes 2380? It's another premium mod, and if any mod outside of Evolv is going to implement live resistance reading in VW, it would be that one.
   1. Not that it's much good to you because it's a TC mod and you'd just use it in TC mode.
   2. If it also does not do it, I would be fairly happy saying that re-reading resistance during a VW vape is a peculiarity of Evolv, something they put in to go above and beyond, and something that few if any other mod manufacturers have considered important.
6. My solution to the problem would be simple: replace old VW mods with new(er) TC mods, and go All TC

 

[TheBloke]

If I'm not wrong Nifethal 70 and NiFe30 contain about 70% Ni and 30% Fe.
So from this point of view Nifethal 52 is better if we accept that the lower Nickel content is better. And there is Nifethal 36 too what contains less Ni. This one has lower TCR accordingly (0.0026 between 20 and 250°C, if I remember well).
The huge difference of TCR is strange between Resistherm and Nifethal70 because both of them contain the same amount of Ni and Fe based on their datasheets.

Yes you are right, the 70 and 52 in NiFe70 and NiFe52 are the Ni content.

And yes that's a very good point about high nickel level = bad thing, @WileE just made the same point at the same time as you. So this might make NiFe52 again even better!

I had been wondering if there was any disadvantage to vaping, like maybe it is really brittle, or really springy, or the flavour is not as good, or I don't know what. I was just trying to understand why Dicodes chose Resistherm over NiFe52 when on paper NiFe52 seems so much better in every respect. I wondered if there was a "hidden factor".

But now @WileE has said he is already vaping on 52 with great success, so I am now happy it must be a solid vaping wire. Which is excellent news!

 

[vapealone]

It seems that I have missed the party and you guys covered everything.
Anyway,it is great that ZiVipf makes Kanthal Nifethal52 available. I definitely will buy some 0.4mm for my collection and for some hassle free quick coiling
However, I have to admit that Kanthal's Ni DH and Nifethal's are notoriously resist me fitting accurate curves/polynomials yielding the least precise approximations on the chart. The good news is that it doesn't really matter The TFR's provided by Kanthal is more than enough for a dna200 or to calculate a TCR for 200 or 250°C and use as static value. But it still bugs me....

And @funkyrudi: thank you

 

[TheBloke]

I am sorry about your polynomials, @vapealone

 

[balazsk]

I had been wondering if there was any disadvantage to vaping, like maybe it is really brittle, or really springy, or the flavour is not as good, or I don't know what. I was just trying to understand why Dicodes chose Resistherm over NiFe52 when on paper NiFe52 seems so much better in every respect. I wondered if there was a "hidden factor".

I am just guessing, maybe Dicodes has chosen a wire from Germany, from a domestic company what can make the cooperation easier. Anyway, I think Resistherm is even better material for vaping than Ni200 despite of it's disadvantages.

 

[vapealone]

If I'm not wrong Nifethal 70 and NiFe30 contain about 70% Ni and 30% Fe.
So from this point of view Nifethal 52 is better if we accept that the lower Nickel content is better. And there is Nifethal 36 too what contains less Ni. This one has lower TCR accordingly (0.0026 between 20 and 250°C, if I remember well).
The huge difference of TCR is strange between Resistherm and Nifethal70 because both of them contain the same amount of Ni and Fe based on their datasheets.


Sorry guys for my English, it's night.

In terms of Resistherm vs Nifethal70/A120 I personally blame the Cr content for the difference. It seems, Cr in an alloy tend to reduce TCR and straighten the Resistance change curve. But this is just a wild guess.

 

[TheBloke]

I am just guessing, maybe Dicodes has chosen a wire from Germany, from a domestic company what can make the cooperation easier. Anyway, I think Resistherm is even better material for vaping than Ni200 despite of it's disadvantages.

Yes that's true, being in Germany might make it easier for them. I am definitely thinking it is more down to commercial reasons than anything else that they chose Resistherm.

Every wire is better than Ni200

 

[balazsk]

Every wire is better than Ni200

This is definitely true! Although I have seen some trials with silver wire..

 

[vapealone]

(...) And there is Nifethal 36 too what contains less Ni. This one has lower TCR accordingly (0.0026 between 20 and 250°C, if I remember well).
(...)

If only I could find some detailed TFR orR@different temp data for it

 

[vapealone]

I am sorry about your polynomials, @vapealone

Thank you, @TheBloke I appreciate your understanding

 

[TheBloke]

This is definitely true! Although I have seen some trials with silver wire..

I have often wondered about silver - though I figured the low resistance and high cost made it unsuitable.

You have seen trials of it? Was it very bad then?

 

[balazsk]

If only I could find some detailed TFR orR@different temp data for it

Sorry, I mixed up the value with niobium.
However, you can find some single TCR value for a specific range about Invar 36 what is similar to Nifethal 36. But of course it's not the same.

 

[WileE]

There are some really cool possibilities that open up with A52 wire. Sub tank RBA's Far right is 26ga A52 parallel 2.5mm 5 wrap = .1Ω Middle is Fused Clapton A52 28ga x 2 core with Kanthal A1 36ga Clapton. (on new wire wizard Steam engine beta it shows .01% diff in temp sensitivity caused by outer wire being Kanthal vs NiFe 30 Thats with NiFe 30 cores)
Far left/bottom is My evil BabyI call it the Fazed Clapton & it's a huge pain in ... to make, but holly crap does it work. I named it that because typically the outer wrap on a Clapton is like 30 ohms & relies almost entirely on the core to heat up, hence lag time. This is upside down, I've got a twisted 26ga Kanthal A1 core Claptoned with 6 separate parallel strands of 31ga A52 Core = about .36 Ω Clapton = about .19 Ω combined = .11 The outer shell lights first & as temp rises the core starts to take over. I didn't expect it to work in temp mode, but it does & surprisingly well. Also pictured is a 454 dripper with a dual 11 wrap A52 2.5mm .22 Ω it's been used and ready for re wick. Stone reliable in TC mode with full contact coils.

 

[TheBloke]

That looks awesome, @WileE ! Where did you get your NiFe52 from?

I still haven't made a Clapton. I just today received the 32G Titanium I was planning to use to start making some, but now I think I will wait until I get NiFe52 and start then. Thomas is going to supply 0.25mm (30G) -> 0.4mm (26G), is that a wide enough size range to make an OK Clapton?

 

[balazsk]

I have often wondered about silver - though I figured the low resistance and high cost made it unsuitable.

You have seen trials of it? Was it very bad then?

It was just a demonstration by a Hungarian reviewer to show why it isn't suitable for vaping.
A plenty of wire is needed to make a coil and too much silver isn't really healthy.

 

[cigatron]

I Have been working with Alloy 52 for some time now & It's Great. Educating people on how to properly use it is another story On the version I'm working with Dry cotton just starts turning light brown when set to 330°F on a DNA-40 or approximately 73% the temp of Ni 200 dry burn test set to 450°F. As has been discussed about the Resistherm vs NiFe70 vs Alloy 120, they're all a little different. Same goes for NiFe 52 AKA Perniffer 52, Glass seal 52, Alloy 52, Nilo 52, Nifethal 52, Carpenter 52 etc. The nickel content varies from 50.5 - 52% along with variations in the trace elements. The Advantages of NiFe 52 vs 70 are as The Bloke pointed out, much higher resistance Almost double that of NiFe 70 & 4.5 x more than Ni200. Another big advantage is that at <52% Nickel content it's quite possible that those with Nickel sensitivities will be able to use it. I'd love to know if anyone is aware of someone with a Nickel sensitivities successfully using Resitherm @70% Nickel.
With the lower TCR it increases the resistance range for max power on any TC mod. That's really important since were now talking about temp control with "resistance wire". We need to be able to start with higher initial cold resistance.
The down side is that you can easily build a coil/coils with both mass & resistance, thus quickly outpacing a 40 watt device. Looks like the down side will be short lived though with all the new high powered TC devices

Bloke - If your Game I've got an experiment in mind for you. I think NiFe alloy coils should be only be used in VV mode if run on a VV-VW device. It seems the only device I don't own is a non TC, VV-VW device to test this theory. With Alloy 52 or even 120 it's easy to build a coil at an appropriate resistance level , say .4Ω that allows the atty to be interchanged between Temp control, VV-VW devices, or even a tube mech. I have tested a Kayfun with a 9 wrap 28ga A52 coiled on 2mm mandrel that is .42 Ω. It works great in TC mode on a DNA-40 & works really well on a 18650 tube mech. On the mech it fires at 40watts @ 4.1v with a .42Ω @68°F coil raising to .8Ω at 450°F at which point it's only drawing 20 watts (same as a traditional kanthal A1 .8 Kayfun build).

So My theory "2 heads are not always better then 1" The A52 coil becomes an analog processor on a tube mech due to ohms law, however when installed on a VW device set to watt mode I think the "2" processors work against each other. My understanding is that most if not all non TC, VV-VW devices check initial atty ohm & then calculate the Fixed Voltage required to deliver the set watts. I think what will happen is the coil will fire cold at the fixed volts required for your initial desired watt & then due to ohms law the power/watts will be cut in a detrimental way ending up at about half of what you want when the coil gets to temp.

Ex. Using the tube mod example above, I know I like vaping a .8Ω on a kayfun at 4.1v & So with A52 I build the coil @.42Ω for the desired hot resistance of .8Ω & get the added benefits of a pre-heat boost (40 watts on cold coil). The boost is needed because My .42Ω A52 coil is roughly twice the mass (.8158gr) of the equivalent .8Ω Kanthal A1 coil (.3964gr). Now if I put my Kayfun on a VW device and set it to the wattage I like to vape at (20watts), the device will see the initial resistance .42Ω & lock the voltage at 2.9V. Now my coil will fire cold at 20 watt with a really slow ramp up since it's double the mass coupled with the fact that the non TC device does not "I think" monitor resistance in VW mode so I wind up vaping at 10 watts when & if the coil ever gets to temp.

I have confirmed that a DNA-40 even in watt mode monitors resistance dynamically to maintain set watts. I have a video of DNA-40 screen firing A52 from cold to glow in watt mode. Voltage follows resistance in real time. It keeps up just fine. Now if I could just figure out how to upload or embed a video??

Any USA source links to share? How is the malleability/workability of 52? Is it dryburnable?