btw i have been using ssv ti .4mm (grade 2 i understand) have had no luck pulsing to dry burn in vw mode, i always take it to far an throw the coils out. This wire is almost gone have less than 2' left of 10' bought in august, but i only use on rda and only vape it outside the house anymore or when wife is gone, she doesn't enjoy living in the clouds. Anyway, i want to dryburn an roll on!
TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
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Use the 304 its within 1-2 tenths of an ohm.
If you wrap a 3mm coil each wrap is about .1 ohms. I only run single strand spaced coils. I have a 3mm 6 wrap at .62.
I don't expect any particularly serious issues to pop up with use of NiFe52 as with Kanthal A1. Most of the heating elements in the world have Nickel or Iron in significant percentages so unless you are concerned about your toaster poisoning you or you have the champion nickel allergy of all time then NiFe52 at coil temperatures of less than 500F should be totally benign.
The controlled dry burn technique for titanium coils was first posted by balazsk. I think his method is perfect for dryburing the crud off of Grade 1 titanium coils while leaving them in pristine, undamaged vapable condition. Kudos to balazsk for the new "sliced bread".
For a DNA 200 I put the Ti dry burn in as profile 8 so I don't easily make an error and try to vape a burning wick.
Check out balazsk's post of Sep 6, 2015
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...nt-of-resistance.676506/page-66#post-16450667
He sets the TCR at 0.00725 and the temp at 300C for Grade 1 titanium.
The coil temp is about 600C with these settings.
tchavei sets the TCR at about 0.007 I think to lower the temp a little.
I personally like to lower the temp also but usually do it by just setting a slightly lower temp than 300C,
Duane
I used the TCR dry burn technique on my Ti coil on my LavaBox DNA200, worked well. One question though. Should settings like pre-heat and punch be turned OFF?
Thanks!
just a qyick one as I am tired and its late here.
Just been screwing around with the zivipf NiFe48 and it is absolutely fantastic. It is basically kanthal a1 with the TC properties of Ti more or less. In response to @dwcraig1 and the NotFethal52 fiasco, i took some and torched the merry hell out of it. Glowing nearly white hot (certainly more than 1000F) and it just darkens and loses its shinyness a bit. Wiping it after this torture with IPA produces no residue. Proceeding, I lightly torched a length of it and then made a 8 wrap build (25g) and went through exactly the same procedure as i would with kanthal microcoil. Wicked it and shoved it on a sig 75w, (Ni mode only dont forget), res pretty much spot on, set it for 310F and vaped away. Magnificent.
I seriously think that, unless there are some unknown health issues with it, this is the new A1 industry standard TP wire of the moment.....
edit: on the dicodes with tcr set to 405 and T=230C it is an absolutely a wonderful vape. Atty is a merkava if anyone is interested....
Just been screwing around with the zivipf NiFe48 and it is absolutely fantastic. It is basically kanthal a1 with the TC properties of Ti more or less. In response to @dwcraig1 and the NotFethal52 fiasco, i took some and torched the merry hell out of it. Glowing nearly white hot (certainly more than 1000F) and it just darkens and loses its shinyness a bit. Wiping it after this torture with IPA produces no residue. Proceeding, I lightly torched a length of it and then made a 8 wrap build (25g) and went through exactly the same procedure as i would with kanthal microcoil. Wicked it and shoved it on a sig 75w, (Ni mode only dont forget), res pretty much spot on, set it for 310F and vaped away. Magnificent.
I seriously think that, unless there are some unknown health issues with it, this is the new A1 industry standard TP wire of the moment.....
edit: on the dicodes with tcr set to 405 and T=230C it is an absolutely a wonderful vape. Atty is a merkava if anyone is interested....
The notfethal52 I have gave off a bunch of brown residue when I cleaned it after torching it
cos its notfethal I guess...I would love to know what that stuff is...
@TheotherSteveS There! You've done it! Throroughly confused me.
Are you saying that Notfethal52, properly treated, is a contender?
I think a paragraph break would have made your point(s) clearer. (No, I am not the diction police. [emoji8])
Are you saying that Notfethal52, properly treated, is a contender?
I think a paragraph break would have made your point(s) clearer. (No, I am not the diction police. [emoji8])
lol!
Nope. real NiFe48 is the real deal. I dont have NotFethal. Sorry for the confusion and god knows there is enough of that around at the moment!
Hey I can use my can't even think of the name the OH OH the MVP 2 for something again.
I'm thinking when I get home I'll cut off 10cm of the stuff and measure it - the wire we should of gotten has a ohms per mm2/m specification. Then try a 'water test' and different TCR's to see what value I can come up with.
For those that are doing a "water test" how are you doing it? Dip the coil in static water with 212F temperature setting and then dial in the TCR until the water does what? I don't know if simply wetting the coil and adjusting until the coil is "dry" is good enough.
The coil temp won't rise above 212°f at sea level even once boiling, as long as the wick stays wet with water. The dna200 should read 212 when the water begins boiling if the tcr is set correctly.
Look back a few pages at @Landman 's escribe screenshots of tcr testing of 430ss. Notice how once the boiling temp of water was reached the temp stabilized at approx 211°f even though the set temp was 250 and power was set to 70w.
It's a fairly accurate means to determine wire tcr at 212 but isn't a perfect relection of wire tcr at vaping temps because of the tcr curve of the wire. For the most accurate tcr curving one would need an accurate temp probe , data logging device, a fan to simulate airflow while vaping etc. Enter @TheBloke or ??
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Ya it was pretty bad, and would happen every time it was heated, even with a mod.
I didn't clean my not-fethal for my today's torch test. I saw some flakes on it glowing as I heated it, perhaps that was what I thought was oxidation flaking off. Maybe I'll repeat the test tomorrow with cleaned not-fethal.
I changed the name a bit to avoid confusion with the real deal.
I changed the name a bit to avoid confusion with the real deal.
The build I did today with the Unkamen ss430 was as follows:
I torched the wire before twisting as it is quite springy coming off the roll and that took all the springiness out of it.
Two strands of 28ga twisted until it was twisted tightly (I stopped the twisting before it broke or kinked as it seemed to be getting really tight).
Wrapped a pair of 2mm id coils with 11/12 wraps each. (contact coils)
Pulsed the coils and compressed them tightly until they were glowing red from center to both ends.
The dual coils when mounted in my AX1 rda on my Hcigar VT200 had a ohms reading of .31
I set the TCR at .00138.
Getting a real good vape and I am very satisfied with the wire so far. The only thing I noticed is if you set the DNA200 at a higher wattage than needed for your desired temp the board will have a little trouble holding the temp exactly at the temp set point, jumping a little above and below when you look at it in Escribe when hooked up to computer. I am sure this is because stainless steel wires have such a low TCR values. I think the (correct) Nifethal 52 will be a little more stable as it's TCR is about three times higher than that of stainless steel.
Set mod to 30 watts and temp to 400 degrees F. The Nifethal 52 is the next wire I want to try.
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Unlike Ni200 or Tit the NiFe 52 can & should be oxidized prior to use (This is a good thing). It is a mandatory if configured as either a contact coil or Clapton. IE everything I build!!
If you try to dry burn NiFe like it's Kanthal you'll just burn the legs right off. It takes a different technique to get them dry pulsed & successfully glowing inside out.
It makes sense if you consider a kanthal coil typically has a final resistance 4+ x higher then the NiFe 52 so a hot leg/arch on a .4 Kanthal might bring it down to a .15Ω, whereas a hot leg on a .12Ω NiFe might fire at .05 & I've had a .1Ω target (unoxidized) NiFe 52 contact coil (pictured) so low without pre-torching it wouldn't even fire to try dry pulsing.
Uwell Crown RBA 26ga parallel .1Ω would not fire on DNA to pulse, unoxidized ohms below DNA safety limit.
I now wrap the coils first & then torch before installing (I have the exact torch dwcraig1 just posted a pic of). I then dry pulse in watt mode starting at 10 watts till its acting right. Then for good measure pulse a few times at 30+ watts to make sure it's glowing reliably middle out. If I don't have a torch with me I just start pulsing with 5 - 10 watts.
TheothersteveS beat me to it with the description of torching.
The only thing I do differently is to wrap the coils first and then torch. I did the same test as TheothersteveS torching the hell out of a straight piece & then wiped with IPA to confirm no residue resulted from torching. The rational for torching after wrapping is that I don't want to damage the newly oxidized surface when winding the coil with my coil-master. I polished the serrations off the hex screws that guide the wire around the mandrels, but they still leave a stripe if I pre-torch the wire & then wind.
1st pic torching a NiFe Reactor coil.
2nd pic. coil pair 26ga Reactor NiFe 52 one is oxidized with torch shown with unoxidized match & Black mandrel background for Color Ref. NiFe 52 is dark Gray/Blue after torching & color lightens when dry pulsing
3rd Picture (Compressor coils) showing how color lightens when dry pulsing. Had to replace the one on the right. I zapped a leg off while pulsing on a series mech @ 300+ watts.
Coil on the left has been torched & dry pulsed. Coil on the right has been torched only.
My theory is that torching creates oxide by heating from the exterior, whereas pulsing heats from within causing additional oxide formation (druckle thoughts? Am I off the reservation here?)
If NiFe 52 contact type coils are not oxidized the resistance will be low & or erratic. Of coarse same goes for good old A1 kanthal (pre-torching & dry pulsing was the key to success when Kanthal micro coils first caught on).
For spaced NiFe 52 coils (including single wire core claptons) I've seen the initial unoxidized cold resistance match the final resistance after oxidizing.
From that it would seem OK to run a spaced NiFe without pre-torching or dry pulsing, however:
If you try to dry burn NiFe like it's Kanthal you'll just burn the legs right off. It takes a different technique to get them dry pulsed & successfully glowing inside out.
It makes sense if you consider a kanthal coil typically has a final resistance 4+ x higher then the NiFe 52 so a hot leg/arch on a .4 Kanthal might bring it down to a .15Ω, whereas a hot leg on a .12Ω NiFe might fire at .05 & I've had a .1Ω target (unoxidized) NiFe 52 contact coil (pictured) so low without pre-torching it wouldn't even fire to try dry pulsing.
Uwell Crown RBA 26ga parallel .1Ω would not fire on DNA to pulse, unoxidized ohms below DNA safety limit.
I now wrap the coils first & then torch before installing (I have the exact torch dwcraig1 just posted a pic of). I then dry pulse in watt mode starting at 10 watts till its acting right. Then for good measure pulse a few times at 30+ watts to make sure it's glowing reliably middle out. If I don't have a torch with me I just start pulsing with 5 - 10 watts.
TheothersteveS beat me to it with the description of torching.
The only thing I do differently is to wrap the coils first and then torch. I did the same test as TheothersteveS torching the hell out of a straight piece & then wiped with IPA to confirm no residue resulted from torching. The rational for torching after wrapping is that I don't want to damage the newly oxidized surface when winding the coil with my coil-master. I polished the serrations off the hex screws that guide the wire around the mandrels, but they still leave a stripe if I pre-torch the wire & then wind.
1st pic torching a NiFe Reactor coil.
2nd pic. coil pair 26ga Reactor NiFe 52 one is oxidized with torch shown with unoxidized match & Black mandrel background for Color Ref. NiFe 52 is dark Gray/Blue after torching & color lightens when dry pulsing
3rd Picture (Compressor coils) showing how color lightens when dry pulsing. Had to replace the one on the right. I zapped a leg off while pulsing on a series mech @ 300+ watts.
Coil on the left has been torched & dry pulsed. Coil on the right has been torched only.
My theory is that torching creates oxide by heating from the exterior, whereas pulsing heats from within causing additional oxide formation (druckle thoughts? Am I off the reservation here?)
If NiFe 52 contact type coils are not oxidized the resistance will be low & or erratic. Of coarse same goes for good old A1 kanthal (pre-torching & dry pulsing was the key to success when Kanthal micro coils first caught on).
For spaced NiFe 52 coils (including single wire core claptons) I've seen the initial unoxidized cold resistance match the final resistance after oxidizing.
From that it would seem OK to run a spaced NiFe without pre-torching or dry pulsing, however:
- the emissivity would be significantly lower on a bright polished coil vs oxidized & may result in a cooler then expected vape??
People are always gushing over how much warmer the vape & faster ramp times with Nichrome 80 vs Kanthal.
FWIW - emissivity, fully oxidized condition for A1 Kanthal is .70, for Nichrome 80 it's 25% higher @ .88, & for NiFe 52 also .88
I'd love love to have some of the experts on here share their knowledge on the topic of emissivity & and its affect on our application. How does it correlate to heat flux on Steam Engine?
- I am of the opinion that the safety level of one coil alloy vs another in our wet application is directly tied to the below characteristics of the oxidized layer formed prior to use. This is not a complete list, but may provoke some good discussion.
- Oxide layers performance as an electrical insulator. (Will the coil perform as micro coil/Clapton?)
- Oxide layer formation. (Does the process of oxide formation result in flaky crust or sooty residue that may be soluble in the e-juice?)
- Oxide layers ability to heal itself when damaged or spalled off. (How many times can you dry burn before oxide can no longer regenerate?) There is a limit with Kanthal A1 & you can tell when you've hit it.
- Oxide layers coefficient of thermal expansion vs that of the base metal. (Is the likely-hood of oxide spallation increased due to dissimilar expansion coefficients & heat pulse cycling?)
- Oxide layers ability to bond to the base metal. (Ability to prevent boundary layer infiltration from liquid, moisture, & vapor; thus preventing or allowing oxide layer fracturing & spallation due to boundary layer vapor pressure when heated.)
- Oxide layers grain structure how fine or coarse. (How well does it protect base metal from corrosive oxidation?) & (Does the oxide layer effectively seal the base metal, thus preventing any leaching?)
- Oxide layers malleability. (How delicate is it? Will it be easily damaged when wicking?)
It was a 2.75mm coil, 6 wrap, 26 ga. Used a coil master, no annealing at the start. After making the coil, used a torch to anneal and did it repeatedly, making it glow for quite a while. After it cooled, changed it to a spaced coil. Mounted the coil and dry fired several times to make sure it glowed properly, then wicked with rayon.
It's the 7ml subtank plus with the bottom feed juice channels on each side.
I forgot to ask what device it was on when it jumped out of temp mode?
That build should ohm at .25 & wouldn't be a huge watt gobbler 30 should light it quick in fact that build would work great on a tube mech (that's if the Subtank RBA will wick fast enough).
Not familiar with the 7ml subtank, but if it's the same RBA deck as the subtank mini & you have the bottom feed channel version I wouldn't put it on the mech. I've drilled the chamber sleeve on a few of the old style ST RBA's 2.5mm hole directly above wick channels & just a little below coil center line. They work pretty good then.
One other thing that may cause a ST RBA to jump out of TC mode is that the 510 center pin in the lower portion of the tank is press fit so if your tank ever had a disposable coil head even a couple thousands deeper then the rest it pushes the pin down slightly. Then if the RBA deck is a few thou shallower then the disposable heads the positive pin bottom might not have good contact with the top of the center pin. I Had this happen on a Crown Tank.
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