The end of microcoils?

[Alien Traveler]

We should know that we inhale some metal when vaping, it is unavoidable. I do not know how much. I believe the amount is so small that it should not bother us, but again I do not know for sure. What I do know, is that dry burning will not increase this amount.

 

[englishmick]

You should not torch your Kanthel thats been a no no for quite a while now.

Hmmm. Nobody tells me anything these days. Guess I just read a bunch of old threads when I started making coils.

I use pretty much 5 and 6 wrap no contact coils they are easy to make easy to space once installed. They heat quickly produce plenty of vapor and flavor IMO

I just made one like this for a PT2 without torching or compressing and can't say it seemed any different from a compressed microcoil when I used it. My eyes aren't good enough to try adjusting the spacing on a coil that small, but I dry burned it and it seemed to heat up evenly.

Edit: no coil jig is needed just simply wrap around a scew driver and install and push it around with a screw driver once installed till your happy with the spacing. stroking it with a screw driver will remove the hot legs

How does that stroking thing work? Sounds a bit like Voodoo. Do I need to chant anything while I do it?

And thanks for the info update on torching.

 

[TFL!]

For even spacing on a coil wrap it a screw and apply tension wile doing it.

 

[Mactavish]

I imagine folks easily dismissed early warning reports on tobacco and cigarettes too. Amusing reading all the posts dismissing the mans report. Like not wanting to hear something that MAY be true, and telling everyone how they plan on doing what they have done before, because it's easier, a habit, or just what they care to believe. I first heard of this doctor on the PBusardo, Tasteyourjuice site. Personally I know nothing about him, though for now, I'll assume he is a lot smarter then me and most here. Perhaps he did not use correct terms for metal heads, but that alone does not mean there is no cause for concern, at least for the logical amongst us that are leary of any claims, both positive or negative. Do you really know if cotton is healthy to Vape from? I don't, but ASSUME it's a better alternative. It's still a BIG assumption.

A topic not often discussed is the hobby aspect of vaping, numbers are thrown about how vaping has helped many to quit smoking, a good thing. But how many never stop vaping, as they enjoy the various favors, or playing with bright new electronic devices? I'm guilty as charged. I've done a lot of reading and research on how nicotine in itself is not addictive, but the formula used in cigarettes is akin to and called "freebase nicotine", along with the other 3,999 ingredients. This form of nicotine is highly addictive as well as the other ingredients that give you a cigarette HIGH, you don't get from Ecig juice. I believe that this, besides device particular problems, is one of the main reasons people fail to quit smoking even with the use of properly working ecig devices. But for those that do succeed, are they truly planning on stopping inhaling anything that may be harmful, or just playing the risk reduction game?

The term "risk reduction" is our little crutch, but I believe it's smart to keep our eyes open for any new information and studies, as vaping is still the WILD WEST, with little real scientific data to support what we would like to believe is truly safe in the long run. Been doing this since 2009, want to talk about vaping some unknown crap? Like it or not, we are still in very uncharted waters, so careful review instead of instant dismissal is logical. Your lungs don't have much defense other then your brains, so try and keep an open mind for any new information, and like me consider a day hopefully where I'm not compelled to breath anything more then FRESH AIR.

 

[Aal_]

Yes. Dry burning = cleaning, and purpose of cleaning is to remove undesirable chemichals.
Does vaping on a cleaned by dry burning coil increase amount of undesired chemicals? NO! It makes vapor cleaner.
BUT: It could be quite possible that dry burning of a premaid prewicked with silica coil can increase bad chemicals. Dry burning of silica may partially clean it but may also make other things worse (I am not sure, but I would not recommend doing it).

Well that's that then. Thanks. Actually it makes sense to me. Sometimes I dry burn while there is still liquid in my drippers. And many foul smells are released: burning residual rayon, burning VG, burning gunk, and maybe burning insulators lol. These definitely don't feel like a safe thing to inhale.

However once rewicked and rejuiced, not a hint of those things. I know this is not science and trace amounts might not be noticeable by smell, but I'm comfortable that way.

 

[mightymen]

No Metallurgical Engineering here just some older guy.

Little common sense helps here especially for you younger folks that should have many years left. For me the concern is nil now though I will change my ways a little.

No more turning my coils red that's for sure just makes sense.
Dry hits staying away first sign I'll open the damn tank for a visual no more playing around with that.
Re-wicking most likely will do another coil much sooner instead six months later.
When dripping adding juice a little sooner.
Maybe instead of taken a full 10 second drag I'll cut it down a little - I'm a chain vapor.

Little things that cost nothing and won't change my Ecig habit in any way. For you younger people out there this just makes even more sense to me - until the verdict is in caution is the best approach you have many years left live them health.

 

[Mactavish]

We should know that we inhale some metal when vaping, it is unavoidable. I do not know how much. I believe the amount is so small that it should not bother us, but again I do not know for sure. What I do know, is that dry burning will not increase this amount.

How is it "you know"?

 

[marc42]

No Metallurgical Engineering here just some older guy.

Little common sense helps here especially for you younger folks that should have many years left. For me the concern is nil now though I will change my ways a little.

No more turning my coils red that's for sure just makes sense.
Dry hits staying away first sign I'll open the damn tank for a visual no more playing around with that.
Re-wicking most likely will do another coil much sooner instead six months later.
When dripping adding juice a little sooner.
Maybe instead of taken a full 10 second drag I'll cut it down a little - I'm a chain vapor.

Little things that cost nothing and won't change my Ecig habit in any way. For you younger people out there this just makes even more sense to me - until the verdict is in caution is the best approach you have many years left live them health.

How about learning not to inhale or minimize inhalation?
I use to inhale cigs but gave up that when i started vaping.
I do understand that many need the feeling etc but a sure fire way to cut exposure is less inhaled vapour.
when read how much liquid some get through and watch those vids with peoples mouths clamped on a chuffer sucking in like it they just surfaced from the deep , it makes me eewww.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

No worries for tootle puffers. No need to worry about hot spots and such at 8 watts. I just wrap em, check resistance an wick and vape em.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Are there any bright youngsters in our vaping community who are attending university that might have access to a scanning electron microscope with spectroscopy capabilities? I would really like to discuss the possibility of a simple little study to help us get a little better understanding of the aging of the metal alloys we are using in a very unusual application.

Alternatively, we could crowd fund a study and contract an analysis lab to examine some samples for us. Perhaps we could show some of our skeptics that we really do care about vaping safely and that we could use some help instead of uneducated, draconian regulations.

I have assess to a scanning electron microscope (SEM) with a X-ray wavelength spectrometer (EDS), just for $200 an hour. But a spectrometer here is of little help: it will show that there is a layer of oxides on a surface, but we already know it. It could be interesting to observe a well-used coil, how deep is pitting, how much of it is on a coil. It will show how much of metal went out with vapor. However, in contrast with vapor, for atoms of metal all surfaces of a tank will be super cold and metal will happily stick to them (hopefully the wast majority of atoms of metal). As I see it the only right way to determine amount of metal in vapor are direct measurements of vapor composition (SEM here is useless).

 

[Alien Traveler]

How is it "you know"?

Have you read the whole thread?

 

[Mactavish]

Have you read the whole thread?

Yes

 

[Lessifer]

No worries for tootle puffers. No need to worry about hot spots and such at 8 watts. I just wrap em, check resistance an wick and vape em.

You can get hot spots/legs on a 1.8ohm coil just as easily as you can on a 0.4ohm coil.

 

[Lessifer]

I'm not dismissing this, but I also won't accept it as gospel. I'd like to see a study that says vapor from a coil that has not been dry burned contained x amount of y, and vapor from a coil that has previously been dry burned contained z amount of y.

 

[HauntedMyst]

metals do not have molecules and heating does not destroy bonds.

As a non-metallurgist and confirmed dumb guy, I thought everything had molecules. Can you explain?

 

[awsum140]

I do think the jury is still out on metal leaching from coils, dry burned or not. I will say that at least Dr. F has started a debate and we all have opinions. Until there is actual fact, like Lessifer mentions, it is all just conjecture. The actual behavior of the metal in a coil just has not been carefully studied and analyzed, yet. Until that happens, I am hoping that he is wrong but keeping an open mind.

 

[Mactavish]

Well that's that then. Thanks. Actually it makes sense to me. Sometimes I dry burn while there is still liquid in my drippers. And many foul smells are released: burning residual rayon, burning VG, burning gunk, and maybe burning insulators lol. These definitely don't feel like a safe thing to inhale.

However once rewicked and rejuiced, not a hint of those things. I know this is not science and trace amounts might not be noticeable by smell, but I'm comfortable that way.

It is science, like it or not, and claims by doctors or casual users are not to be taken as FACT. Just look at all the opinions, mine included since this thread started, does any of it make you sleep easier. The real facts are simply not in yet, and that's on both sides of the discussion. Let's face it, governments, as well as big tobacco want in on the money parade, we poor end users just want to quit buying and smoking cigarettes, some with the goal of not inhaling anything one day, others replacing smoking with ecig vaping, and all the while, we the end user making a lot of folks, more MONEY!

 

[englishmick]

"As a non-metallurgist and confirmed dumb guy, I thought everything had molecules. Can you explain?"

Gets a little complicated and I only have general knowledge.

A molecule is a collection of a specific number of atoms that are held together by (I think) electrical forces carried by electrons. So a molecule of water is 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. But there are other looser combinations of atoms, and molecules. In a crystal many atoms are linked together in a lattice of some kind. In a pure diamond all the carbon atoms are more or less evenly lined up in a 3 dimensional lattice. Likewise in metals and metal alloys. The metal atoms can align in many different ways. When you heat metal, then cool it, it will change its characteristics. Cooling quickly or slowly will have different effects, one way causes increased hardness, the other causes flexibility and strength.

So the effect Dr F was talking about could have some truth to it. The structure of the metal could change with heating and cooling. The individual atoms could be less firmly held in the matrix. I think his use of unscientific language, like "totally destroying the bonds" made it less convincing.

 

[Magaro]

A

I have assess to a scanning electron microscope (SEM) with a X-ray wavelength spectrometer (EDS), just for $200 an hour. But a spectrometer here is of little help: it will show that there is a layer of oxides on a surface, but we already know it. It could be interesting to observe a well-used coil, how deep is pitting, how much of it is on a coil. It will show how much of metal went out with vapor. However, in contrast with vapor, for atoms of metal all surfaces of a tank will be super cold and metal will happily stick to them (hopefully the wast majority of atoms of metal). As I see it the only right way to determine amount of metal in vapor are direct measurements of vapor composition (SEM here is useless).

Actually, a spectrometer is very useful. Kanthal is designed to be protected by a continuous layer of aluminum oxide. If you oxidize Kanthal too much (or too many times), you can deplete the aluminum in the near surface region of the wire. Then the chromium in the alloy will preferentially migrate to the surface to oxidize, along with the iron. This new scale is, according to my quick first look at the technical literature, less adherent to the base metal and can spall off. Presumably then it could be inhaled. It would be nice to know where this occurs in the life of a coil for different styles of cleaning - dry burn vs not. It's not just about fresh coils, but how they age.

 

[Steamer861]

I followed along the whole thread and I can't understand how torching the coil or dry burning would affect the vape?
Does the kanthol under go some change? and start to break down releasing extra chemicals?
That said, it should be very easy for someone with the proper facilities to prove or dis prove this. I mean you build the same coil one torched and one not and measure the vape, Does this make sense to all of you?
I sure would like a definitive answer. I like to vape but would like to do it as safely as posable.
It's not really that hard to make coils that work well with out torching, only thing is when they get gunked up you would have to clean them some different way than just dry burning.