The end of microcoils?

[zoiDman]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 15832786" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Yes. Dry burning = cleaning, and purpose of cleaning is to remove undesirable chemichals.
Does vaping on a cleaned by dry burning coil increase amount of undesired chemicals? NO! It makes vapor cleaner.
BUT: It could be quite possible that dry burning of a premaid prewicked with silica coil can increase bad chemicals. Dry burning of silica may partially clean it but may also make other things worse (I am not sure, but I would not recommend doing it).

I'm not say'n it Does or it Doesn't.

But what are you Basing this On?

 

[PaulBHC]

If we inhaled flakes of metal wouldn't we hack up oysters like we did with smoking?

 

[Mactavish]

I followed along the whole thread and I can't understand how torching the coil or dry burning would affect the vape?
Does the kanthol under go some change? and start to break down releasing extra chemicals?
That said, it should be very easy for someone with the proper facilities to prove or dis prove this. I mean you build the same coil one torched and one not and measure the vape, Does this make sense to all of you?
I sure would like a definitive answer. I like to vape but would like to do it as safely as posable.
It's not really that hard to make coils that work well with out torching, only thing is when they get gunked up you would have to clean them some different way than just dry burning.

We would all like to KNOW. The studies and data are just not here right now. MONEY is always the issue. Real scientific studies cost $$$. The budgets for anti-vaping studies, as well as "let's tax this goldmine", are much larger then true fact finding studies at this point and since 2009, when I got into ecig vaping, sure seems like a long enough time period for real studies, no? This doctors studies, at least at this point in time seem genuine, he is not asking for your money, or adding taxes, or saying you should not Vape. Is this the gospel we are all looking for, I doubt it as well as anything I read here or my own limited research. We just don't KNOW, so proceed with caution, that's the best I can do for now.

 

[awsum140]

It would take a lot of metal inhalation to hack up oysters like that, Paul. Dr. F is talking about nano particles from what I can surmise. Given that most metals exhibit "fatigue" many heating and cooling cycles I is certainly possible that something is being leached off of a coil. Just how much and how dangerous it might be needs some sophisticated equipment to detect. Until that happens, keep you mind open and maybe change, instead of dry burn, those coils. Wire is pretty cheap.

 

[Steamer861]

We would all like to KNOW. The studies and data are just not here right now. MONEY is always the issue. Real scientific studies cost $$$. The budgets for anti-vaping studies, as well as "let's tax this goldmine", are much larger then true fact finding studies at this point and since 2009, when I got into ecig vaping, sure seems like a long enough time period for real studies, no? This doctors studies, at least at this point in time seem genuine, he is not asking for your money, or adding taxes, or saying you should not Vape. Is this the gospel we are all looking for, I doubt it as well as anything I read here or my own limited research. We just don't KNOW, so proceed with caution, that's the best I can do for now.

Thanks for the quick reply I have to agree, Dr F is on our side for all the right reasons. If he says torching and dry burning is not good, I will take his advise and stop doing it. After all for me it's just a small adjustment on my coiling and wicking procedures

 

[Aal_]

It is science, like it or not, and claims by doctors or casual users are not to be taken as FACT. Just look at all the opinions, mine included since this thread started, does any of it make you sleep easier. The real facts are simply not in yet, and that's on both sides of the discussion. Let's face it, governments, as well as big tobacco want in on the money parade, we poor end users just want to quit buying and smoking cigarettes, some with the goal of not inhaling anything one day, others replacing smoking with ecig vaping, and all the while, we the end user making a lot of folks, more MONEY!

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said what I'm doing is not science as in saying if I don't smell it it is not there.

I agree with what you said!

 

[BadTrainDriver]

Thanks a lot for a transcript. Even in worst nightmare I would not watch vape-related video for 1+ hour.

A lot of useful info.

BUT as a (former) metallurgist I do know about metals and I have to say that all what was said about metals is not worth any attention. It was all wrong. It was even said "you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", which is just funny for a metallurgist: metals do not have molecules and heating does not destroy bonds. For kanthal heating is very useful thing. You should dry burn your kanthal coils to make them healthier. First, you remove contaminations - no solvent can remove them as good as dry burning. Second, you form good protective layer on a wire.
Just an example when specialist is trying to discuss things in which he is not a specialist.
Please, dry burn your kanthal coils. Please, do not overheat them while vaping (including legs).

This, not what "Doc" says.

 

[Rule62]

A


Actually, a spectrometer is very useful. Kanthal is designed to be protected by a continuous layer of aluminum oxide. If you oxidize Kanthal too much (or too many times), you can deplete the aluminum in the near surface region of the wire. Then the chromium in the alloy will preferentially migrate to the surface to oxidize, along with the iron. This new scale is, according to my quick first look at the technical literature, less adherent to the base metal and can spall off. Presumably then it could be inhaled. It would be nice to know where this occurs in the life of a coil for different styles of cleaning - dry burn vs not. It's not just about fresh coils, but how they age.

Question, Magaro: I'm certainly no engineer nor metallurgist; I'm just an old welder, who spent a lot of time performing critical welding with stainless steel. We used to often be concerned with 'ferrite', as well as the phenomenon of 'carbide precipitation'. Is this issue similar to that?

 

[RichM76]

Doc F has a website to look at his work on e-cigs. Don't know if there are any transcripts, but a lot of information on all the studies he has done.
I think this is the study that the OP is referring to.
Metals emitted from e-cigarettes are NOT a reason for health concern

 

[zoiDman]

As a non-metallurgist and confirmed dumb guy, I thought everything had molecules. Can you explain?

I believe what Alien will argue is the Difference between Covalent Bonds, Ionic Bonds and Metallic Bonds.

And that in Metallic Bonds, the Valence Electrons are De-localized.

 

[Magaro]

For anyone who might be interested, here's a link to a one-pager that briefly discusses the high temperature oxidation of Kanthal A1. It doesn't address things such as possible early spallation due to the many hot/cold cycles we subject our coils to, but it does show what a highly durable high-temperature alloy we're dealing with. Not perfect (what is?) - the oxide eventually spalled off after a very severe long, high temperature exposure (70 hr @ 1204C is no joke). But still impressive.

http://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/206/pdfs/1761.pdf

 

[Mactavish]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said what I'm doing is not science as in saying if I don't smell it it is not there.

I agree with what you said!

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post. This thread will and is evolving into to a blog. I'm going to bail out now before having to ignore many more ignorant posts, not meaning yours. Been here, done this, If you continue to read or follow you will see the wide variety of opinions as many are content to remain ignorant that the FACTS concerning vaping safety are just not in for whatever money reasons. I don't make any claims either way, as you can see, many are quickly willing to make their own claims concerning what you inhale into your lungs, granted they are your lungs, so do as you please. For me I'm willing to keep my mind open to any new studies, and then try to read between the lines. Even the NY Times prints ecig horror stories with little factual backup. How many responders here have any medical degrees or metal research? I don't and that I know for sure.

 

[Magaro]

When you heat metal, then cool it, it will change its characteristics. Cooling quickly or slowly will have different effects, one way causes increased hardness, the other causes flexibility and strength.

So the effect Dr F was talking about could have some truth to it. The structure of the metal could change with heating and cooling. The individual atoms could be less firmly held in the matrix.

All SORTS of things can change in a metal alloy when you heat and cool it. Some alloys harden when you cool them quickly, while others soften. But for Kanthal, Nichrome, Nickel and Titanium, the atoms will NOT be less firmly held in the matrix. Sorry, it just doesn't happen.

 

[tchavei]

My average life span for a coil is 3 months (before I get bored) so at 500 puffs per day that's 45.000 heat and cold cycles. Yeah, something might change and leech.

With nickel, we all know the coil becomes brittle after time so something changes.

How bad is it for us? No freaking idea.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[puffon]

It's a shame the FDA doesn't do what our tax dollars pay them to do,
Provide unbiased research, not influenced by lobbyist and politicians.......

 

[Lessifer]

I would just like to know if there is something behind this, like a study, or preliminary work; or if it is another case of what he believes to be an unknown and therefore avoidable risk. From the research I have read so far, there is no presence of metals in the vapor, I'm wondering if that has changed.

 

[tj99959]

All SORTS of things can change in a metal alloy when you heat and cool it. Some alloys harden when you cool them quickly, while others soften. But for Kanthal, Nichrome, Nickel and Titanium, the atoms will NOT be less firmly held in the matrix. Sorry, it just doesn't happen.

Sorry but I kinda-sorta disagree with that.

Folks are fond of advocating the heating of kanthal to make it less pringy and easier to wrap. To me, that would indicate a change in the structure of the alloy.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

I would just like to know if there is something behind this, like a study, or preliminary work; or if it is another case of what he believes to be an unknown and therefore avoidable risk. From the research I have read so far, there is no presence of metals in the vapor, I'm wondering if that has changed.

Me too. Dr. F is an ECF member and has posted here before. I hope he becomes aware of this thread and elaborates on what he's said. He's not the type to say something without a solid reason.

 

[VapieDan]

I feel the coil itself will pass into history. As technology evolves a ceramic like post will be heated to an adjustable temperature. From a tank like system liquid will be injected onto the post for vaporization. Much like fuel injection in an engine.

 

[caferacer]

I feel the coil itself will pass into history. As technology evolves a ceramic like post will be heated to an adjustable temperature. From a tank like system liquid will be injected onto the post for vaporization. Much like fuel injection in an engine.

I'm waiting for the day that we can vaporize our eliquid with...