The end of microcoils?

[druckle]

Magaro,
I just wish I had a machine that could spit out a million pills a day that sell for $4 USD each with an intrinsic value of 0.01 cents. Now that is what I call a markup.

My dad gave me advice when I went off to college.
"Study hard" but always think ahead about a product you can make for a nickel, sell for a dollar and is habit forming"

He wasn't a drug dealer but he understood the mentality.

 

[Magaro]

Dear friends:

I am posting this on behalf of Pedro Carvalho; he asked me to do so, so as to shed some light on this discussion. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

-----------

I'm Pedro Miguel Carvalho the material scientist that wrote a post together with Dr Farsalinos.

In that text, there are some less-than accurate statements. I assume the responsibility (and I apologize) because Dr. Farsalinos sent me the text to participate on it, and I didn't read the whole thing with the proper care.

IMO we could move forward and have a great discussion about this theme. Obviously the bulk of resistive wire will change with a heat treatment, increase of grain size, solid solution, crystallization or re-crystallization, etc. In any case, this IMO does not present any concern. What could represent a problem is the formation of oxides layer in the surface of the metal/alloy. The thickness and composition of this layer will depend on the temperature and duration of the heat treatment and type of resistive wire. In some cases like kanthal, a "light" heat treatment can be beneficial, but a longer heat treatment can eliminate the oxide protection layer. This frontier is very narrow, so it is difficult to recommend a specific "light " heat treatment.

Alloys that contain Al or Ti present a oxide layer that protects against deeper oxidation. In the case of nickel chromium wire, the benefits of a cleaning heat treatment should be compared with the possibility of formation of hexavalent chromium. In principle, hexavalent chromium formation requires a higher temperature than 1000 Celsius degrees, but without scientific data, we cannot exclude this possibility.

Any heat treatment that causes the coil to turn red can easily exceed 900 Celsius degrees; this promotes the formation of an oxide layer (inclusively destroying the protective layer as aluminum oxide or titanium oxide). Since we have no scientific data regarding composition/adhesion, or the possible reactions of this oxide layer with the high variety of juices, IMO if its use could be avoided, in general, it would be beneficial.

Soon I will start a start a study to determine the dependence of temperature/duration of the heat treatment on the composition, thickness and adhesion of these oxide layers. I have always believed that is better to be safe than sorry, and given in the lack of scientific data, I would recommend minimizing all heat treatment to any resistive wire, and avoiding extended and repetitive heat treatment. It will be a pleasure to further discuss this theme. Here is my contact: pmcbfcarvalho@gmail.com. Kind regards to all.

Pedro

LouisLeBeau

I have been conducting a rather extensive exchange of email with your friend Pedro Carvalho and have thoroughly enjoyed the interchange. He seems like a very "stand up" guy who had the misfortune through assumptions to be associated with negativity.
I think you, I and the whole vaping community are lucky to have him address issues of interest in the future. He is indeed a conservative fellow with respect to public statements but I do not think he ever intends to endorse extremist views no matter where they might come from.

Duane

"In some cases like kanthal, a "light" heat treatment can be beneficial, but a longer heat treatment can eliminate the oxide protection layer."

"In principle, hexavalent chromium formation requires a higher temperature than 1000 Celsius degrees, but without scientific data, we cannot exclude this possibility."

"Any heat treatment that causes the coil to turn red can easily exceed 900 Celsius degrees; this promotes the formation of an oxide layer (inclusively destroying the protective layer as aluminum oxide or titanium oxide)."

Whatever.

 

[druckle]

"In some cases like kanthal, a "light" heat treatment can be beneficial, but a longer heat treatment can eliminate the oxide protection layer."

"In principle, hexavalent chromium formation requires a higher temperature than 1000 Celsius degrees, but without scientific data, we cannot exclude this possibility."

"Any heat treatment that causes the coil to turn red can easily exceed 900 Celsius degrees; this promotes the formation of an oxide layer (inclusively destroying the protective layer as aluminum oxide or titanium oxide)."

Whatever.

yeah, I know...but once you understand why....

 

[Magaro]

yeah, I know...but once you understand why....

Oh please. Do tell.

Never mind. I really don't want to know. The point is, scientific falsehoods have no place in a discussion about the safety of vaping. This is too important. People need facts to make intelligent decisions , and they shouldn't be obscured by fabrications.

 

[etherealink]

Sick coils. In any case, if the oxide film shows these brilliant rainbow colors, the thickness is less than one micrometer. Thicker thermal oxide scales all just look gray, with varying degrees of roughness.

Good to know, that amswered one of my questions before I asked it. Now for the other 2:

Does the thickness or coloring give any indication of the heat used to create the oxidation?

Is the "rainbow" oxidation thick enough or solid enough to protect the wire from electrical short or heating issues under *normal* vaping temps?

 

[Magaro]

Good to know, that amswered one of my questions before I asked it. Now for the other 2:

Does the thickness or coloring give any indication of the heat used to create the oxidation?

Is the "rainbow" oxidation thick enough or solid enough to protect the wire from electrical short or heating issues under *normal* vaping temps?

You can get the same color by heating for a long time at a low temperature or for short time at a high temperature.

Oxides this thin are easily damaged, in which case they can allow a short.

 

[soulseek]

If nicotine is so addictive, why don't the gum or patches have a better track record? Why are they sold over the counter? Surely, if nicotine was so addictive, wouldn't it be harder to get?

The same person that sparked the creation of this thread, Dr F, has talked extensively about the ineffectiveness of various nicotine products in quitting smoking. In fact, the apparent success rate of new generation e-cigarettes is what got him to go into research of e-cigs to begin with.

 

[soulseek]

Magaro,
I just wish I had a machine that could spit out a million pills a day that sell for $4 USD each with an intrinsic value of 0.01 cents. Now that is what I call a markup.

While I'm not about to defend big pharma, let's not forget that these companies spend millions upon millions in research before they come out with anything useful...

 

[Toastyroadie]

While I'm not about to defend big pharma, let's not forget that these companies spend millions upon millions in research before they come out with anything useful...

Hmmm, they also spend a lot on advertising, billions I reckon.

Pharmaceutical Companies Spent 19 Times More On Self-Promotion Than Basic Research: Report

 

[Matthee]

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats

Ah, very useful article, thank you. So other stuff in tobacco causes the need for nicotine. Which is why almost all vapers can lower nicotine content over time.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Monoamine Oxidase Inhibition Dramatically Increases the Motivation to Self-Administer Nicotine in Rats

Now that is interesting. Eureka. Does explain a lot about why nicotine has the effect on former smoker that it does. Similar to some other drugs (that ECF won't even allow to name) we or at least some of us former smokers are pretty much irretrievably broken in terms of addiction to nicotine.

I feel like someone just showed me that the earth is not flat and the implications are huge lol.

It supports a compelling argument for why tobacco should actually be banned but a similarly compelling argument for why e-cigs should not. No (or at least fewer) new youths would become nicotine addicts but present addicts can get what they need.

Very exciting information. So much food for discussion I have already started circulating this article at work. I am sort of jumping around like an old dog that just learned a new trick!

 

[awsum140]

I don't know that tobacco should be specifically banned, but it might be an idea to get rid of those >4000 other chemical that are used in cigarettes. Just a casual observation but it seems that cigarettes, at the beginning and until the late 50's or early 60's, just didn't cause all the health problems that we see with cigarettes today. I'm not saying that inhaling the products of combusting tobacco leaves is a safe practice, I just think it may be a lot safer without all the additives BT likes to use to get people hooked.

 

[Aal_]

But this is dangerous. If smokers know that nicotine is not the addictive substance, they wouldn't be motivated to move to vaping

 

[DaveP]

I was surprised to see this thread about the metals we use in eig coils putting off metal particles into the vapor we inhale. I had to stop and think whether there was an analog in our daily lives that compared to heating various wires. Of course, the toaster is one, but electric heating systems are a huge example of what Dr F was talking about.

Every time your electric furnace comes on there are similar coils that heat the air that permeates the living space. There's a huge coil that turns on once the air flow has started and that coil is in operation for hours per day. We breath that air constantly in heated living and work spaces. Doesn't it make sense that we'd all have metal poisoning if the quantity of released metal particles were significant? At the very least we'd have detectable metal levels above the norm in blood tests.

Heating element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Metal heating elements

• Nichrome: Most heating elements use Nichrome 80/20 (80% nickel, 20% chromium) wire, ribbon, or strip. Nichrome 80/20 is an ideal material, because it has relatively high resistance and forms an adherent layer of chromium oxide when it is heated for the first time. Material beneath this layer will not oxidize, preventing the wire from breaking or burning out.
• Resistance wire: Metallic resistance heating elements may be wire or ribbon, straight or coiled. They are used in common heating devices like toasters and hair dryers, furnaces for industrial heating, floor heating, roof heating, pathway heating to melt snow, dryers, etc. The most common classes of materials used include:
  • Kanthal (FeCrAl) wires
  • Nichrome 80/20 wire and strip
  • Cupronickel (CuNi) alloys for low temperature heating
• Etched foil: Etched foil elements are generally made from the same alloys as resistance wire elements, but are produced with a subtractive photo-etching process that starts with a continuous sheet of metal foil and ends with a complex resistance pattern. These elements are commonly found in precision heating applications like medical diagnostics and aerospace.
• Radiative heating elements (heat lamps): A high-powered incandescent lamp usually run at less than maximum power to radiate mostly infrared instead of visible light. These are usually found in radiant space heaters and food warmers, taking either a long, tubular form or an R40 reflector-lamp form. The reflector lamp style is often tinted red to minimize the visible light produced; the tubular form is always clear.

 

[Aal_]

I was surprised to see this thread about the metals we use in eig coils putting off metal particles into the vapor we inhale. I had to stop and think whether there was an analog in our daily lives that compared to heating various wires. Of course, the toaster is one, but electric heating systems are a huge example of what Dr F was talking about.

Every time your electric furnace comes on there are similar coils that heat the air that permeates the living space. There's a huge coil that turns on once the air flow has started and that coil is in operation for hours per day. We breath that air constantly in heated living and work spaces. Doesn't it make sense that we'd all have metal poisoning if the quantity of released metal particles were significant? At the very least we'd have detectable metal levels above the norm in blood tests.

Heating element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not sure you are talking about the same heaters, but now i remember these heaters that blow air. They have a fan that blow air heated by big resistors!

 

[Rossum]

In the US, we have a lot of homes heated and cooled by air-sourced heat pumps. They are very efficient and cost-effective when outside temperatures are above freezing, but when outside temperatures drop below freezing, they often can't produce enough heat. So they all have a backup "emergency" heat source consisting of resistor coils at the output of the air handler.

 

[beckdg]

Blow dryers
Electric clothes dryers
Toasters

We're inundated with this "deadly" metal all over our bodies, in our breathing air and in our food on a daily basis.

If you believe there's cause for concern from your typical vaping device.

Tapatyped

 

[orion7319]

Now that is interesting. Eureka. Does explain a lot about why nicotine has the effect on former smoker that it does. Similar to some other drugs (that ECF won't even allow to name) we or at least some of us former smokers are pretty much irretrievably broken in terms of addiction to nicotine.

I feel like someone just showed me that the earth is not flat and the implications are huge lol.

It supports a compelling argument for why tobacco should actually be banned but a similarly compelling argument for why e-cigs should not. No (or at least fewer) new youths would become nicotine addicts but present addicts can get what they need.

Very exciting information. So much food for discussion I have already started circulating this article at work. I am sort of jumping around like an old dog that just learned a new trick!

Perhaps you could help me with my understanding of this article. I get that there is something in cigs (don't know if deliberately put there or not) that are MAO inhibithers and other substances present that do two things. The first being that nicoteen is prevented from being broken down and remains as nicoteen, the second is that the MAO inhibithers somehow prime the brain to become addicted to nicoteen. Did I read correctly that this change in rats is permanent? Also would it not stand to reason, considering we are dealing with altering the levels of neurotransmitters, and brain chemistry here, that some people might just be more naturally inclined to become addicted to nicotine?

 

[Alexander Mundy]

I was surprised to see this thread about the metals we use in eig coils putting off metal particles into the vapor we inhale. I had to stop and think whether there was an analog in our daily lives that compared to heating various wires. Of course, the toaster is one, but electric heating systems are a huge example of what Dr F was talking about.

Every time your electric furnace comes on there are similar coils that heat the air that permeates the living space. There's a huge coil that turns on once the air flow has started and that coil is in operation for hours per day. We breath that air constantly in heated living and work spaces. Doesn't it make sense that we'd all have metal poisoning if the quantity of released metal particles were significant? At the very least we'd have detectable metal levels above the norm in blood tests.

Heating element - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While I'm not worried about the metal exposure unless some science comes along in the future to change my mind, I'm not sure that analogy holds up due to exposure differences. My wife likes to burn a scented candle in the kitchen. Doesn't seem to cause any hazard to the occupants of the room, but I sure as heck bet it would if I put it in a small enclosure and vaped directly from it just inches away.

 

[etherealink]

But this is dangerous. If smokers know that nicotine is not the addictive substance, they wouldn't be motivated to move to vaping

Aal... NET and WTA