the end of vapeing as we know it??

[2coils]

Absolutely not. I don't ever think of quitting, have no intention of ever quitting, and seriously doubt I ever will.
Not unless someone eventually succeeds in finding some kind of significant harm that might come from it.

And I disagree with you about nicotine...

Nicotine improves memory, concentration, and attention.
The World Anti-Doping Agency is currently consider whether to add it to the list of banned substances as a performance-enhancing drug.

It is also being looked at very closely as something that can help prevent Alheimer's and Parkinson's.
And a LOT of people may very well be using nicotine to self-medicate for things like ADHD or depression.

I have mentioned in another thread......I have chronic moderate to severe back pain. Nicotine and vaping absolutely helps me in many ways, from depression to improved concentration at my desk at work. I have a hard time focusing while my pain is at its worst. Some will say its coincidental that vaping helps me, and other things will help too. That may be true. What I do know is it works for me and that's extremely important to my quality of life.

 

[EddardinWinter]

This is highly unlikely as this course of action would open the floodgates to a black market.I suspect the FDA will adopt AEMSA recommendationsns for eliquids and as for proprietary cartridges you don't have to buy them. China alone will see to that.Besides, our government is only concerneded with one thing. How to tax. They want there cut because the revenue from the tobacco tax is drying up. So vaping as we know it is not going to end. Just the relatively low to no tax status.

Then I will have one more reason to despise AEMSA. What a disingenuous pack of hyenas they are.

Golden Age e-liquid or bust! I will not tolerate any senseless regulations like:

A) "no food coloring" which is only an AEMSA standard because one of those rodeo clowns on the board is allergic to food colorings.
B) No WTAs.

Why no WTAs? There is no evidence of any harm to vapors from them. This is an important tool to help some smokers quit. It is just a bone AEMSA is tossing in there to look good. I have told all of my prime vendors that if they join up with AEMSA I am done with them. Two of them told me flat out that they would rather go out of business than capitulate to AEMSA.

C'mon guys, WE get to choose what is in our liquid! We are the ones buying the liquid, not those tin-plated fascists with the FDA! I want my juice the way I get it now, and I don't want any BS regulations put onto this industry that is growing by leaps and bounds. If we protect it, it will be making some amazing juice in a few more years.

We must adopt a zero tolerance stance on regulation of liquid. If they tax it in some MINOR way, fine. Remember, the justification for the ridiculous cigarette tax is the health danger of it, this health danger has not been established with vaping. I believe it never will be.

 

[DaveP]

As long as nichrome and kanthal are used in toasters and other resistance element devices there will be vaping. 18650 and other types of rechargeable batteries are the mainstay of high end flashlights and toys. The nicotine may be a problem, but we can eventually gravitate from that if we have to. It's the inhaling and exhaling we crave for the relaxation it provides. If cola cravers can switch to artificial sweeteners then vapers can get by. The PG and VG are used for other products and available for sale and the cake and candy flavors will always be there for us.

Keep all your rebuildable atomizers just in case! A good mod will last for years if you take care of it.

 

[Myk]

Remember, the justification for the ridiculous cigarette tax is the health danger of it, this health danger has not been established with vaping. I believe it never will be.

And that is the corner they have backed themselves into. We can use that to our advantage.
If the politicians try to tax ecigs we simply bring up how they are supporting Tobacco corporations or trying to keep people smoking tobacco at the cost of lives. They re either doing it because they ignorantly think there is a danger or they are actually out for money. Either way they don't like those truths pointed out because they're contrary to who they are trying to position themselves as.
(Since IL's attempted ban and one of the sponsor's CASAA education and admittance of, "I didn't know. I wish these were around before my mother died." there hasn't been a word against ecigs in our legislature.)

Another thing we have going for us is every non-smoker who doesn't mind our vapor. My sister, the biggest anti-tobacco person you can imagine just got some Cignot business cards from me so she could pass them out. She ran into a health nut guy who smoked and she suggested he try ecigs and wanted some cards. She even said she had wished she paid more attention to what I've said so she'd know what to tell him. She has even considered buying an ecig kit for her son (who has tried Blu but didn't replace them when they broke because they're too expensive for junk).
This is someone who wouldn't allow me to smoke in her garage, but allows me to vape at her kitchen table.
Doing things to push me back to smoking will lose her vote.

I don't know why smokers stood by and allowed WHO to lie about second hand smoke while the UK media put the truth out there for everyone to know. I guess by that time smokers had accepted the demonization.
But if they want to do something like that to vaping it will require many years of brainwashing and lies as long as we stay vigilant.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I like where your head is on this, Myk. Very strategic thought there. For the moment, we must wait, get our thoughts together, and study our foes. I am determined to be ready for this fight when the deeming regulations come. If we all do what we can do best without fear of "looking crazy" or "wasting our time, we can't win", we cannot lose. It really is that simple.

If we think about how to make the fight, and we fight like we are defending our freedom, we cannot lose.

 

[Myk]

I like where your head is on this, Myk. Very strategic thought there. For the moment, we must wait, get our thoughts together, and study our foes. I am determined to be ready for this fight when the deeming regulations come. If we all do what we can do best without fear of "looking crazy" or "wasting our time, we can't win", we cannot lose. It really is that simple.

If we think about how to make the fight, and we fight like we are defending our freedom, we cannot lose.

Looking crazy is where the ANTZ are really losing this.
I post to my FB every time they come up with something like fighting against blocking minor access to ecigs. If I could find out exactly who in the alphabet soup blocked a nicotine pill for Ulcerative Colitis I would be shouting that everywhere I could.

 

[patkin]

Just a thought... if the FDA gets crazy regulating as BT wants them too, I would copy everything here at ECF to do your own supplies... the handbook I've seen mentioned.... extraction, etc. ECF may be forced into deleting all that info so I would copy it now just in case. I'm not a mod and this is JMHO.

 

[wv2win]

This is highly unlikely as this course of action would open the floodgates to a black market.I suspect the FDA will adopt AEMSA recommendationsns for eliquids and as for proprietary cartridges you don't have to buy them. China alone will see to that.Besides, our government is only concerneded with one thing. How to tax. They want there cut because the revenue from the tobacco tax is drying up. So vaping as we know it is not going to end. Just the relatively low to no tax status.

You are being naive at best. They already tried to ban vaping completely and were only stopped by lawsuits and judges appointed by the prior administration. The only way they won't mandate sealed carts only for eliquid is if we make enough of a stink about it. You seem to think the FDA is some benevolent agency that is only concerned about the welfare of the public and taxes.

The upper management of the FDA is beholden to the Big Pharm industry, period. They understand where their next job is coming from. They will instituite regulations that comes closes to keeping in the good graces of Big Pharm and keeps BT from sueing them. That would be sealed carts only as that is what BT wants and is the least effective vaping alternative which is what BP wants.

And they could care less about an imaginary black market. Whatever black market might spring up will be small and expensive. And if they want to shut that down, they have the power of the banking system and transportation system to effectively kill any black market if they want to. Plus they know the vast majority of American vapers are not going to risk breaking the law to vape.

And the Chinese really don't care if they provide eliquid in carts or loose. It's still money in their pocket. And the FDA is concerned about the ALA, AMA, AHA, ASH, etc and Big Pharm, more than about taxes.

 

[AgentAnia]

And they could care less about an imaginary black market. Whatever black market might spring up will be small and expensive. And if they want to shut that down, they have the power of the banking system and transportation system to effectively kill any black market if they want to. Plus they know the vast majority of American vapers are not going to risk breaking the law to vape.

I believe the threat of creating a Prohibition-like black market is a concern to them, though I imagine they'll manage to downplay it in their final decisionmaking.

As to your last sentence, I want to believe you're wrong and a great many vapers will do what they have to do to keep vaping. Here's one person who definitely will!

 

[wv2win]

1) No, it's not a strawman. It's my own personal situation. For anything short of a complete ban I can get nicotine. I may not be vaping nicotine but I can get nicotine.
The real strawman is calling something a "ban" when you're obviously not talking about a "ban" so that you can argue something other than a "ban" whenever someone argues against your claim.
Any purpose specific "ban" is doomed to fail because it leaves the product out there to be re-purposed as we have seen with allergy medicine.
Leaving ecigs open for "BigT" to make means anyone can get e-liquid, that's just the way the world works.

2) The real strawman is claiming I said "pesticide company" when that strawman was created by you to tear down. Dow won't be making 24mg bug spray but Joe's Organic Vape Fruit shop would.
So you think soaking tobacco in water is too dangerous while sticking that same tobacco in your mouth and chewing it is obviously not? What do you think the difference is?
You are not creating nicotine sulfate when you make tobacco tea. You wouldn't know the strength but test kits are way more available and cheaper than the scared sheep want you to believe. You need to get some knowledge.

3) And people had plenty of shipments get through and some had shipments released. The same as happens in any country that is hostile towards ecigs yet people still get nicotine e-liquids.
I recall some companies being run dry but I never recall any person unable to buy what they needed. But you don't want to admit the whole story because it doesn't suit your fear mongering.

4) Resorting to attacks on the person rather than the argument show that you know you are wrong. "Average" may not but only because the average person is scared of their shadow and want Big Brother to take care of them.
How successful has the "War on D_____" been? In the event of that type of all out ban, if you're afraid to do it for yourself then you can pay a premium or you can be a good little lamb and quit.





Maybe it's time the sheep learn that whenever someone uses "the safety of our children" as an excuse it is generally a scam to remove freedom to the detriment of everyone.

As I said somewhere (I think in this thread);
I take an airbrush, put an atty where the paint goes in, replace the handle with a battery and sell 30ml "cartridges" to fit on my "Vapebrush". But people could sell "cartridges" for bottom feeder box mods.

Every law you can imagine has a loophole, short of a complete ban, and even then a complete ban would be as effective as Prohibition. Some would get turned over to the black market, some would DIY, just like during Prohibition.

You keep stating that it will be easy to get nicotine to vape. Yet all I see is speculation on your part and no specifics on how that would work. How will we get this "vapeable" nicotine without needing to jump through hoops to either extract it, risk it being provided by someone very unscrupulous or risk breaking the law to get it?? You basically just keep saying there will be a way, don't worry, it will be easy, no one will have a problem continuing to vape as we do today.

You are all sunshine and no specifics, as to how easy it will be to continue to vape as we do today, if sealed carts only are mandated. I don't see that as helpful.

 

[DaveP]

BT would love to be the cart supplier even if you don't buy their ecig. All they'd have to do is create 510 and 808 threads, maybe a few others and they could make more bucks as people gravitate from their ecig to bigger and better mods. It's inevitable. They can design and react quickly. China would be their chief obstacle because of prices. It would be hard for government to prevent import of carts and devices that are already sold by American companies. Stifling competition doesn't play well in global markets, especially if they have Most Favored Nation Trading Status and China does (or did).

 

[CookingWithGuns]

I don't think the FDA is going to wind up being the agency to worry about when it comes to vaping in the US. As much as an omnishambles as the FDA is, recent political trends in the US will make it too troublesome for them to do anything other than regulating the liquids to be medical-grade. I would also expect new licenses to be needed to sell juice containing nicotine.

What you should worry about is your state though. Expect NY, CA, CO, WA, Washington DC, and a few others to do their own taxation, possibly even sale regulations. I'm lucky, I moved to Missouri a couple years ago, and this state is becoming more and more conservative by the day so I doubt I'll see any state-level regulation/taxation here.

 

[Myk]

You keep stating that it will be easy to get nicotine to vape. Yet all I see is speculation on your part and no specifics on how that would work. How will we get this "vapeable" nicotine without needing to jump through hoops to either extract it, risk it being provided by someone very unscrupulous or risk breaking the law to get it?? You basically just keep saying there will be a way, don't worry, it will be easy, no one will have a problem continuing to vape as we do today.

You are all sunshine and no specifics, as to how easy it will be to continue to vape as we do today, if sealed carts only are mandated. I don't see that as helpful.

I don't believe I started off saying I or anyone else would easily get vapeable nicotine. When referring to myself if it's too hard to get nicotine liquid I will get a prescription for nicotine in one form or another (which if you haven't noticed they've been relaxing the laws on that nicotine not tightening them) to take care of my nicotine needs and vape to take care of the act.

You too are only coming up with speculation with no specifics, but yours is all doom and gloom.
You'll have a lack of specifics when predicting the future. Your predictions are no more valid than mine, because they're both predictions.
I never said we wouldn't have to extract it, in fact I've said that would be one method that would make it available no matter how banned nicotine was. Naturally if it was a complete ban you would be breaking the law to get it and the people you get it from would be unscrupulous. I never said it would be easy or particularly safe.

You keep bouncing between a complete ban of all nicotine products (because that is the only way the scare stories you propose could come about), a ban on ecig products (in which case there will be nicotine available to be re-purposed or skimmed off the top) and a corporate protection scheme allowing ecigs from some companies while denying them from others (with as much as you know about ecigs you can't break into a sealed cartridge and empty it?).

Your fear seems to be focused on going back to cigalikes. Did anyone like those in '09? Did manufacturers continue forcing them on people or did they copy the mods? If nobody will buy cigalikes then nobody will make them. Liquid on a coil is much better than filler on a coil. Given the inevitable burn of the filler the tank system has to be lower risk. Just as likely as your prefilled sealed carto cigalikes is a prefilled sealed eGo-C tank, which has been done.
Batteries are pollution, everyone being stuck with 350mah batteries would get frowned upon very quickly.
What you are seeing from Big Tobacco now isn't a prediction of the future, it's a blast from the past. They are making the same mistakes that were originally made, trying to give smokers who have never vaped what they think they want rather than giving vapers who used to smoke what they know they need. More likely than your scenario is that history repeats itself and Big Tobacco products quickly catch up to compete with things like Joytech's eVic.

Say a ban happens tomorrow. No more nicotine e-liquid but they allow tobacco to remain. I go buy a bag of RYO and a test kit supplies, soak the tobacco, test the tea for strength and figure up how much VG I need to get it where I want it. Maybe not as reduced harm as the liquid I've been vaping, maybe it doesn't taste as good (because I don't like tobacco flavor), maybe it doesn't produce as much vapor, but it's not smoking and it is nicotine.
Then I start learning how to do more complete extractions so I can make the liquid I've become accustomed to. It doesn't matter if you won't or anyone else won't, I will and so will many others, it's not exactly rocket science.
There will also be smuggling just like there was when the FDA was claiming it was illegal, just like there is in Canada with HC claiming it's illegal and just like there is everywhere else in the world.

A ban with tobacco and nicotine highly regulated. I go to the doctor and get a lifelong prescription for patches and vape when I want. They can't ban the equipment or the 0mg liquids, they are common food stuffs and common electric components. I can make a working watch out of raw components, I'm sure I can make a RBA should what I have wear out.

If they ban tobacco, nicotine, flowers that contain nicotine, batteries, electronic components, food flavoring, food that flavoring can be extracted from, VG and PG. Well, then we've pretty much gone Mad Maxx and there is no more law, or we've gone Logan's Run and most of us who would vape are dead. Either way, nicotine will be the least of our worries.

 

[AttyPops]

Name one drug dealer, throughout history, that hasn't tried to "get a lock" on the product and monopolize the supply? BP and BT are no different than the territorial illegal drug dealers in that particular respect. They all want to "own the market" for drug XYZ.

I understand what you're saying Myk and agree than we shouldn't panic. I understand the fears of others too...remember that it's not clean nic-base that BT is selling. It's complete, finished, flavors...and probably only a few. In expensive cartos. So the fear is that BT "gets a lock". A natural enough fear given the history of such things.

The only truly innovative, American, thing we can do....is prevent it. Alas, I've pretty much given up hope for Congress. Without profound campaign finance reform there's little we can do other than write/protest. I have much more hope for the courts. It was the courts that stopped the FDA from a power-grab.

I hope for a day when the clean nicotine extract (in either PG or VG base) is freely available and quality regulated at a decent price point. However the e-juice companies could still market e-juice much like they do now. It's up to the courts to keep it free (as in freely available).

Testing the quality from a few registered sources of PG, VG and Nic shouldn't be too expensive. E-juices and devices....are downstream from there.

I hope that the FDA et al will continue, along with the scientific and medical community, to improve our understating of e-cigs and the harm reduction principals.

 

[bastonjock]

my main concern is that the goverments meddling will deter smokers from making the switch to vaping,i had a look at the electronic look alike ciggys some time ago and i did not like them,i did not like the taste or the coughing that it created,it was by chance that when i was working as an engineer in an office i noticed that they were involved in marketing one of the makes for the UK market,i was given a rechargeable set up for free and a one off menthol cig with a promise that id try them, i found the same reaction as before with the "tobbacco" flavoured ones but ,it was the menthol ciggy that did the trick.I have only been seriously using ecigs for about 4 days,if all i had to go on was the tobbacco flavoured rechargeable types i would not be enjoying this ecig im sucking right now

The way i see it is that the Tobbacco companies,the Taxman and the phamacuetical companies are the ones who stand to loose billions in moneys,in the UK a pack of cigaretes costs around £7.50 pounds thats about $11.50 , of that most of that is tax.

I will probably go down the route of bulk purchasing of the juice if i think that the brit government and the European thought police are going to block its availability and i will march on parlament for a peacefull demo if it gets called

 

[patkin]

BT will obviously push for pre-filled cartos and tanks only... nothing in a bottle.... but they would be stupid to push for ultra-low nic contents as they just wouldn't appeal to or work for smokers. Njoy's disposable highest is now Bold at 4.5 or .6 % nic and I suspect that's more like where BT wants the top level.

 

[Myk]

I understand what you're saying Myk and agree than we shouldn't panic. I understand the fears of others too...remember that it's not clean nic-base that BT is selling. It's complete, finished, flavors...and probably only a few. In expensive cartos. So the fear is that BT "gets a lock". A natural enough fear given the history of such things.

I understand the fears. I know the BP and BT stand to lose money to ecigs and big corporations don't like to lose. I know the FDA has ANTZ in their pocket and the ANTZ have BP in their pocket. A healthy dose of paranoia is a good thing especially when people have made it known they are out to get you.

But the UK thing needs to be balanced with our laws. It is highly unlikely to happen here because it's been tried and shot down in court.

The FDA does not tax.
The FDA doesn't arbitrarily decide who can and can't manufacture a product to be able to say only BT can produce e-liquid. They make rules everyone who wants to produce certain products have to follow.
The FDA can't ban tobacco, that takes an act of Congress, ecigs by being a tobacco product are covered under that protection.
The FDA doesn't regulate devices used with tobacco. A pipe maker doesn't register with the FDA there's no reason an ecig device would be any different. It's the liquid under FDA regulation.
The FDA can deny new tobacco products but the cut off is 2/07, ecigs were invented in '03 and introduced into the US in '06. Maybe WTA is new but overall the liquid is the same as it ever was.
I'm not sure about the differences between new tobacco product and modified risk tobacco product but I think because ecigs were before '07 neither would apply. They're here, have a beer, get used to it.

Flavored liquid is in danger because the same act that put tobacco under the FDA watch bans flavored tobacco, but only for cigarettes, not pipes or cigars so it's not a given that flavors are gone for ecigs. I think enough of us have responded that flavors are what keeps us off tobacco that they're fairly safe. But assuming flavors are banned, places can sell unflavored eliquid and flavor packets.
During prohibition fruit juice was sold with detailed warnings about what not to do or else it would ferment and turn into wine.

FYO liquid could be deemed to be a danger, but we have history on our side. If it's a danger where are the damages over the years? That is subject to a court case just like declaring them a medical device was.
We work on possible risk assessment which remains until actual use shows otherwise. The present possible risk claimed with ecigs is that kids will use them to learn to smoke causing more smokers than they get off smoking, but they've been around long enough and that is not proving to be the case.
One risk that would have to be looked at before an outright ban is forcing people into extracting nicotine at home or buying nicotine from criminals like during prohibition.

Nicotine content could be at risk because that is mandated to be looked at with the act. But to say ecigs can't deliver enough nicotine to cause addiction would apply to BT and BP products as well. And that would mean that people like me who get nicotine for medical therapy beyond cessation couldn't presently get the nicotine medical testing says we need to be healthy. Some might claim medical device because of that but it's no different than me using Metamucil to stay healthy, something under FDA jurisdiction that I use for my health but isn't a medical product because they make no medical claims.

I don't know about DIY nicotine. I don't know the reason why pharmaceutical grade nicotine is allowed to be sold to the general public to begin with. I could easily see that changing to require being a licensed tobacco seller/producer or pesticide producer to buy. But I really doubt if that is high on anyone's radar just like RYO taxes went under the radar for along time until they started threatening corporate dollars.

None of this is to say any of the alphabet soup won't try to overstep their bounds but it's not as open and shut that the sky is going to instantly fall as some make it seem.

 

[DC2]

None of this is to say any of the alphabet soup won't try to overstep their bounds but it's not as open and shut that the sky is going to instantly fall as some make it seem.

You have outlined exactly which powers the FDA does have, and many expect the FDA to exercise them...

1) Chapter IX of the FSPTCA can give them the power to reduce the nicotine content available in electronic cigarettes
2) Chapter IX of the FSPTCA can give them the power to eliminate flavors in electronic cigarettes

In essence, the FSPTCA can give the FDA the power to render electronic cigarettes useless.
Many of us expect that is exactly what they will do.

Allowing free-roaming nicotine to remain available will render all of the above actions meaningless.
So in order to accomplish what many perceive to be their goals, they would have to do something about that.

The real question is what is it in their power to do?

 

[Iffy]

And they could care less about an imaginary black market. Whatever black market might spring up will be small and expensive. And if they want to shut that down, they have the power of the banking system and transportation system to effectively kill any black market if they want to. Plus they know the vast majority of American vapers are not going to risk breaking the law to vape.

If anything, a black market will only 'reinforce' their logic to increase taxes to hire more fed badges!!! Lose, lose fer us...

 

[bunnomatic]

I think lawyers and judges are going to be our best and only hope in this upcoming battle with the FDA.