The impatient newbie strikes again...

[Bostonsnboxers]

Before I read Pete's post I'd started a second extraction (the first, as I've posted tasted great, but dilution was impossible) and gave it a try last night. Awesome Thinking it would be dilute like the last one, I mixed it half extract and half 36mg nic base...too strong! Tasty, but it gives me hope that this could indeed be used as a flavoring rather than a flavored base.

Unfortunately, I wasn't very scientific..no measurements, but here's what I did.

I put loose Gambler light tobacco (my smoke of choice before I started vaping) in a baby food jar and packed it fairly tight. I then added as much vg as I could, using a coffee straw to loosen the tobacco a bit and allow the vg to get to the bottom...added more vg, then added a bit of 151 vodka and stirred and poked until all tobacco was saturated and no more liquid could be added to the jar.

I boiled a pan of water and turned off the heat. Put the sealed jar in the water, put the pan lid on and left it. About an hour later, I remembered I had a tiny crock pot..it's for dips and fondues (part of a set and I've never used it). I found it, put the jar in with enough water to come just to the bottom of the jar lid, and plugged it in. It got quite hot, but not boiling. The lid on this pot is plastic and showed no signs of melting. I let it go for maybe 3 hrs and turned it off, then put it back in my sunny window sill to set for ????????

The next day I read Pete's post about doing something really similar (but wisely with more of a method to his madness) and last night decided to give it a taste. Strangely there was a bit of room in the jar (evaporation? breakdown of the tobacco? I don't know) so I squirted a bit of vinegar in there (can't hurt right?) got some cotton and a syringe and pulled out about 1 1/2 ml....added 1 1/2 ml of 36 mg base (I normally vape around 24 mg so 18mg+ whatever might be in the extract would be fine for me) and tasted..

This to me is all so promising. I was left with that familiar tobacco taste...which I honestly wouldn't want all the time, but on occasion? Heaven

 

[pinellaspete]

Mine does too - but the ones I've used so far are not nearly as dark as what you are describing, could you maybe take a picture and post it?

Also, since you did (at least - I'm a bit feverish from a nasty cold still, not my sharpest this morning) three different extractions, any difference in colour between them?

Why? Do you think more heat will extract more alkaloids/flavours, or is it just because you are impatient? Or are you going for more concentrated extractions?

Me, I've so far only done cold extractions. The most heat I've used has been to warm the VG a bit to get it out of the bottle easier. Mostly just because I am lazy, but also because I am not convinced that heat necessarily really matters.

Tona,

I took photos of the entire process. I haven't posted them because I was lazy. Seeing how you asked so nicely, I will work to post them a little later. The color is black like Coke or black coffee. All of them are the same black color.

I'm hoping that more heat will reduce the time it takes to make an extraction. 22 hours is a bit long. I am impatient.

Wait until you see the photos, THE HEAT MATTERS! You won't believe just how black they really are.

Loxmythe,

The vapor is much less than you would expect seeing that the extraction is at least 80% VG. Throat hit is also minimal for all the extractions. Nicotine seems to be at vaping levels but that is so subjective at this point. I don't notice the nicotine levels to be elevated or too low. The VG/Vinegar extraction lost the sweetness and also a bit of the flavor. I'm not sure which extraction I like best yet.

Bostonsnboxers,

I'm so glad you had good results! We will get this figured out yet. During my experiment the water never really came to a boil. I think the Crock Pot's on low bring the water to about 200deg F. Just a little less than boiling.

I have to go but will be back later.

Pete

 

[loxmythe]

Just want to thank you guys for sharing this with us

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

Just ran into this (researching wta's) and thought you might find it interesting...be sure to read the description
Organic Tobacco E-liquid | Virgin Vapor | Electronic Cigarette Organic e-Liquid | Electronic Cigarettes

 

[pinellaspete]

I read the description. Was there something you wanted me to know in particular about the description? Was it about the trace amount of nicotine? I'll post my pics in the next post.

Pete

 

[Bostonsnboxers]

I read the description. Was there something you wanted me to know in particular about the description? Was it about the trace amount of nicotine? I'll post my pics in the next post.

Pete

Only that it's a vendor selling extracted tobacco in vg and pga...

I found this interesting as well http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/99774-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense.html

 

[pinellaspete]

Okay...For the life of me I can't figure out how to post large size pics. Let's see how these turn out. If anyone knows how to post large size pics, please inform me in how I should do it.

Here's the pics:



I used 1 inch long pieces of the bottom cigar for each bottle.



The chopped tobacco in the baby food jars.



Another of the chopped tobacco in the jar.



Floating in the VG mix.



Sitting in the Crock Pot.

Okay...It only allows 5 photos per post.
I'll be back in a bit.

Pete

 

[pinellaspete]

The remaining photos....



Another view of the Crock Pot.



The color of the finished product. That is a diet Pepsi in the glass next to the jars. Was I right? Is that not black or what? You guys probably thought I was joking!

It does taste really good though!

If you click on the photos they enlarge slightly.

Pete

 

[pinellaspete]

Only that it's a vendor selling extracted tobacco in vg and pga...

I found this interesting as well http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/liquid-extraction-tobacco/99774-vg-pipe-tobacco-essense.html

Just an aside first...

Four years ago I would have been called "clevelandpete"! I was born, raised and lived in the Cleveland area most of my life. No wonder we are always posting on top of each other! Great minds think alike! Go Browns, Indians, Cavs and Buckeyes!

People that are using PGA or any type of alcohol are not doing it right in my opinion. Alcohol is known to actually break down the cell structure in the plant matter, this allows all kinds of undesirable plant parts into the extraction. Using vegetable glycerine with a small bit of water is considered by the homeopathic industry to be the best process by far. These are people that have actually run the chemical analysis on their finished products and compared it to alcohol based products.

There is actually one company that has perfected the process of using only VG without any water. It is a very closely held trade secret at this point. (Let me do a little more research on this.)

The water is important to the VG/Water mix. The water actually is the solvent in the mix, loosening the alkaloids and other plant elements so they can be carried away.

How dark was your heated extraction vs. the photos of my black goop?

Pete

 

[pinellaspete]

Just another thought...

A lot of people mistakenly use the word essence to describe an extraction. An essence is produced using a very specific process that removes the water from plant material and leaves you with the oil of the plant. Essence is a VERY EXPENSIVE product. It might take hundreds of pounds for plant material to produce a 16 ounce bottle of essence. You use a still and boil water or some other type of solvent. The steam then passes over and around the plant material carrying away the plant flavorings. This steam is then condensed back into water and oil which is then separated. The oil portion is the essence oil. This is what most perfumes are make from.

Pete

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

View attachment 80145

Floating in the VG mix.

Is the one most to the right the pure VG?

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

People that are using PGA or any type of alcohol are not doing it right in my opinion. Alcohol is known to actually break down the cell structure in the plant matter, this allows all kinds of undesirable plant parts into the extraction. Using vegetable glycerine with a small bit of water is considered by the homeopathic industry to be the best process by far. These are people that have actually run the chemical analysis on their finished products and compared it to alcohol based products.

I absolutely disagree with this. Both that the homeopathic industry knows what they are doing (except for making money), and that using alcohol as a solvent is wrong.

IMO alcohol is on the contrary a very traditional solvent for making tinctures and essences and whatnots. Most of the old old herbal liqueurs were originally medicinal tinctures - and you can actually still to this day get Chartreuse "essence" - it is 70% alc, but that is not the point, the point is how concentrated it is flavour-wise - the traditional way to enjoy it is two drops on a sugarcube. (But it is awesome as a flavouring for dry apple cider - 1-2 drops in a pint)

I agree that using alcohol probably gets you _different_ "stuff" from your plant matter than does using just water or using VG (or PG for that matter). But whether this is good or bad is totally a question of what you want to extract.

I would also agree that in theory, since alcohol breaks down the cell structure more, you *might* get particulates hard to filter out with household methods to a degree that might be problematic in vaping.

But what you call "undesirables" *might* in many cases be the desirables!
I have no idea what the case is with tobacco, though.

There is actually one company that has perfected the process of using only VG without any water. It is a very closely held trade secret at this point. (Let me do a little more research on this.)

The water is important to the VG/Water mix. The water actually is the solvent in the mix, loosening the alkaloids and other plant elements so they can be carried away.

What I noticed about my 5-part experiment (which I haven't tested yet) was that all the mixes containing water got dark, but the pure VG and the 96% alcohol didn't. So obviously water solves at least something that is dark/reddish in colour from tobacco.
I wonder if the fact that your heated VG also got dark is in some way related to that - but I know too little chemistry.

IMO the big advantage in using VG-heavy solutions for extracting is that we are very unlikely to be able to make something very concentrated, and using VG it is easier to add the extraction to a liquid at high percentages and maintain a vapeable viscosity.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

Another great thread ! I'm starting to think my extraction that tasted like poop was just way to concentrated, I had like 5 cigarettes worth in maybe 10ml of VG and ETOH lol

Gonna try again!

 

[loxmythe]

I hit the cigar store today and I'm going to try the crock pot method shortly. I'm going to use 36mg vg for a third of the vg.
While I'm at it I'm going to try extracting coffee too.
Thanks again for the tips

 

[Cyrus Vap]

So this is totally 'wrong' but

Just dumped a NAS cig into 100 mls (80% VG/20% water) and simmered on the stove for ~1 hr.

Double filtered through coffee filter

Girlfriend came home: What is that smell? It smells like popcorn...or nuts....or chocolate...

Decanted into drip bottle. Dropped 20 drops in ~3 mls of home made juice I love.

It works! Added a deep, caramely, tobacco taste.

I think my previous experiment yielded something WAYYYYYYYYYYY to concentrated!

 

[pinellaspete]

I absolutely disagree with this. Both that the homeopathic industry knows what they are doing (except for making money), and that using alcohol as a solvent is wrong.

IMO alcohol is on the contrary a very traditional solvent for making tinctures and essences and whatnots. Most of the old old herbal liqueurs were originally medicinal tinctures - and you can actually still to this day get Chartreuse "essence" - it is 70% alc, but that is not the point, the point is how concentrated it is flavour-wise - the traditional way to enjoy it is two drops on a sugarcube. (But it is awesome as a flavouring for dry apple cider - 1-2 drops in a pint)

I agree with you to a point. The traditional way to make tinctures is with alcohol and they are good and some taste great. Alcohol tinctures have been made for thousands of years. Purified vegetable glycerin is a rather recent invention. Our forefathers couldn't produce tinctures from vegetable glycerine because it wasn't invented yet. We just haven't figured out the proper process to make it concentrated yet. I have only done one experiment and it turned out pretty good in my opinion. We will get better. Once we perfect the process our glycerites will have a room temperature shelf life of several years.

I agree that using alcohol probably gets you _different_ "stuff" from your plant matter than does using just water or using VG (or PG for that matter). But whether this is good or bad is totally a question of what you want to extract.

I would also agree that in theory, since alcohol breaks down the cell structure more, you *might* get particulates hard to filter out with household methods to a degree that might be problematic in vaping.

But what you call "undesirables" *might* in many cases be the desirables!
I have no idea what the case is with tobacco, though.

Me too! I have no idea exactly what we are trying to extract. But I would like to eventually produce a very concentrated glycerite without alcohol. We then can decide if we want to add PGA or not. Adding PGA will then be an option and not a necessity.

What I noticed about my 5-part experiment (which I haven't tested yet) was that all the mixes containing water got dark, but the pure VG and the 96% alcohol didn't. So obviously water solves at least something that is dark/reddish in colour from tobacco.
I wonder if the fact that your heated VG also got dark is in some way related to that - but I know too little chemistry.

IMO the big advantage in using VG-heavy solutions for extracting is that we are very unlikely to be able to make something very concentrated, and using VG it is easier to add the extraction to a liquid at high percentages and maintain a vapeable viscosity.

Today I tested some of the RY4s that I made the other night using some of the VG/Water extraction. The 8 drop per 5ml definitely had taste from the extraction. It may have been a little on the subtle side but it was definitely noticeable. The 24 drop per 5ml was definitely noticeable and rivaled the primary flavor for dominance. The mixes are relatively new and need a bit more steeping time to come to fruition but all in all I thought they tasted great.

So these extractions I made the other day are not as concentrated as we might like but they are also not weak.

Let's all just take a deep breathe and relax! (Hey, at least after vaping for a while we can now take that deep breath without hacking!) We are making progress and will discover better and faster ways to do this. It might just take a few tries.

Pete

 

[pinellaspete]

Is the one most to the right the pure VG?

In order left to right:

Vinegar/Water/VG-----Water/VG------VG Only



Pete

 

[pinellaspete]

I hit the cigar store today and I'm going to try the crock pot method shortly. I'm going to use 36mg vg for a third of the vg.
While I'm at it I'm going to try extracting coffee too.
Thanks again for the tips

Make sure you stop back and let us know how it turned out!

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Cyrus Vap]

I want to go pick up some of my old favorite pipe tobaccos today

Pete: Do you have any thoughts on total time of extraction, heat vs. not heat, etc?

So far it looks like all of your experiments are based on some duration of heating process at least 8 hours long followed by steeping.

Hopefully when I get a better tobacco I'll have time to run an experiment, all aqueous VG (20% H20)

1) no heat, leave it for a few days

2) heating, stove top for ~1 hr, then filter and bottle

3) same as number 2, but steep for a few days before filtering and bottling

I don't have the means or the patience to heat for 8 hours unfortunately. The delicious popcorn/nutty smell that my gf praised will become a 'nasty tobacco smell' once she realizes what I'm doing lol

so leaving things on the stove for hours is probably not happening

 

[Cyrus Vap]

I just wanted to add, Pete:

From a 1 hr speed heating, and double filtering, my liquid is almost black as well

does it take the full time in the crock pot to get to that color for you?

perhaps relevant here, is that I didn't heat indirectly. I used my turkish coffee pot, dumped the solution in and sprinkled the tobacco on, and onto the stovetop it all went. Low heat, but it started smoking after a while (I think that was when all the water had boiled off and it was just VG left over) and that's when I stopped

its a bit mild, but I can't stop vaping it. I've been adding it to everything lol