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Ethanol Extract - Full Strong Buzz & Moderate flavor

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Lastlokean, Dec 13, 2013.

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  1. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    I didn't get off flavors. The Marlboros tasted better than the air dried tobacco I used in my first try. It just wasn't what I was expecting.

    I feel the fear of "chemicals" in cigs is exaggerated.
     
  2. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    I am sorry to disapoint you but the chemicals added in cigs is not exagerated! 20% of the brand you mentioned is made from the reconstituited tobacco that is to fine to be used. The stuff that has fallen around the machines, etc. This is then sprayed with other cemicals to control burn rate and flavor enhancers on brown paper to look like tobacco. The brown paper soaked with these alkloids and cemicals is then shredded up to look like tobacco and mixed back in with cigs.

    Nothing is waisted!
     
  3. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    No you didn't disappoint. It's exactly what I'm talking about. What you described pretty much sums up what this sub-forum is about. We make extracts and place them on silica, cotton or wire wicks and use chemicals and flavor enhancers.

    Now, if what I tasted didn't taste off or chemically then how could that be what was wrong? I also did an extract with natural tobacco and that tasted worse so your logic is off somewhere.
     
  4. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast

    I was specifically talking about your comment of added chemicals to cig. My logic is not logic but fact. I worked close with the people doing these R&D processes. The chemicals in cig are well published.


    It sounds like the bad taste your getting maybe from picking up too much of the junk, like the chlorophyll. 150 proof is still a lot of water.

    Try a molecular sieve to get your alcohol content up if you can not purchase lab grade ethanol, which evaporates pretty damn fast also.

    With higher alcohol content and shorter soak times in the freezer, with little disruption to the vessele, ie no stirring or shaking, you may get a better tasting product?

    However you will find that it is much cheaper to buy a good quality WTA than it is to make it in the kitchen!

    Best wishes
     
  5. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    Well, my comment was about people’s fear of added chemicals when natural tobacco is already naturally full of those same chemicals. The idea that they use extracts to blend and get a consistent flavor profile shouldn't be something to worry about. Common chemicals used to control burn are glycerin and PG, IIRC. I doubt those are going to be changing anything in our mixes.

    ETA: What I meant by your logic was that you assume that the highly processed "marlboros" taste bad because of additional chemicals while completely overlooking the fact that the more natural tobacco that I tried tasted worse, even though they were both extracted exactly the same way.

    I don't think so. The only thing that the OP seems to be going for with the use of 190 proof ethanol, at freezing temperatures, is the exclusion of sugars. PGA will dissolve a wider range of compounds than water.

    I just did a pure water extract that didn't have the off flavors. I want to repeat it before creating a thread about it.

    WTA is overpriced. I live in Central America. I can get a pound of hand rolled cigars made with air dried (but probably not organic) tobacco locally for about $2.25.
     
  6. Cool_Breeze

    Cool_Breeze Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 10, 2011
    Kentucky
    Last time I ran the numbers, WTA was going for about 5 times the price of gold.
     
  7. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    If you look at some of the litrature that was published in the early part of the thread that the op produced and some of Dvaps comments, going from memory here, water is a stronger solvent then ethanol. It was right up there with some of the nasty chemicals for extracting.

    The problem is it also pulls out alot of the gunk. I have tried this method and spent a lot of money on high quality alcohol and for me it is not cost prohibitive to do this. Then you still don't have a known quantity of alkaloids because you can not titrate it unless it is freebased.

    take a look at the published papers the op referenced!

    i agree WTA is expensive. I hope you can get a good quality. for me it is cheaper to pay the high price than get a crappy product for more money.

    But that was me!

    I truly wish you the best I am not trying to be difficult. I have just given up. Not smart enough to do this with the equipment i have.

    Good luck with your endeavors

    There is another method that is closer to what you need on here somewhere. i believe it is mentioned in this thread. You just need to adapt the chemistry principles that were intended, but it is over my head.


    EDIT;
    Read the link in post #21 about the 7th page or so in that link shows results from different solvents.

    A good idea to read a lot of this thread a few times!
     
  8. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    That report is specific to alkaloids in tobacco. What I think the OP was trying to show was that those numbers backed up what he claimed.

    100% Ethanol did much worse than 50% Ethanol. Why do I keep seeing people say that less water is better?

    I remember reading that up to 85% of the nicotine in tobacco is in salt form. Being in salt form means that they are easily dissolved in polar solvents. Water is polar. That doesn't mean that water is going to dissolve everything.

    You are the second person to tell me that water pulls out more gunk than ethanol. Have you ever heard of someone using plain water to degrease motor parts, remove ink or paint?

    I didn't take anything you said as you trying to be difficult. I do think you misunderstood the comment that you originally replied to. No biggie.
     
  9. ronchinoy

    ronchinoy Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 13, 2014
    Bangalore / India
    Sorry I didnt read all the pages. But you may be onto something here.
    I posted about using Ethyl Alky a day or two ago.

    The only diff between what OP posted and what I posted was that Im using a South Indian Coffee Maker
    The leaf is first dried they have a term for this it starts with the letter C. Carboxilation (Wild guess). You freezing step is in effect drying the leaf I think. i.e. all the moisture is frozen and or pushed out. I just air dry the leaf.

    The next diff is I let the Alk flow over the leafs and it drips out. Into the bottom container. It takes much more than 6 hours to cycle from the top container with the leaf and the alk into the bottom container. More like 24 hours. Keep repeating till you 250 ML alk. Turns to 100 ML
    About 250 Grams off leaf give you 10-20 ML of concentrate. Forget about the head buzz. I can go to the bathroom normally again lol.
    No issues mixing with PG or VG what so ever. At any concentration. Nic is present for sure. Id say as much nic as you find in absolute.
    My trigger level for nic is a 4MG chewing gum. I get hiccups. One pin head of this gives hiccups. So I can say 1 pin head has at least 4 Mg of nic.
    Same as the absolute.
    The other method I wrote about is using water. And activated charcoal.

    The key here is never use leaf from a regular cigarette. For reasons already given.
    The best leaf to use is from an organic farmer. Before they case the leaf and put it up for curing.

    Each leaf gives you a very distinctive taste. i.e. Mysore leaf vs Orissa leaf vs Andhra leaf. So far I have processed Orissa leaf and Andhra Leaf.
    If the leaf is clean this process results in a flavor adder which has little or no coil gunking. Id put the gunking on level with Hangsen Indian Tobacco.
    Or Halo Tribeca. In fact the gunking using this method is the lowest I have found off any method. Even the absolute causes more gunking.

    I use tea bag material to strain the mixture. No dirt. Pale yellow in color and you only need a drop in 10 ML pure VG to give you a strong tobacco note.
    In fact I drip a drop into what ever Im smoking. RY4, Black Honey Tobacco, Or just plain VG. Dont even bother adding nic.
    Its the only thing that gives pure VG a tobacco note. With zero steep time.

    Im using double or triple distilled Ethyl Alcohol 99.98% pure.
    Off all the methods Ive tried since April this is the one that works the best.

    Understand that WTA is a big money spinner and business just as handling nic is. And people dont like you doing it your self.
    For many of us who do not have access to buying it for what ever reason. And we are willing to put in the hard work and the hours of labour it takes. I think we can do it. And it will work out.
     
  10. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    I suggest you read post #79. At best you can call these methods Net extractions.

    You can not however call these WTA's. You have no idea what alkloids have isolated and concentrated and at what percentage.

    Basing the amount of nicotine and or alkaloids to the hickups and calling it a WTA is exactly what DVap did not want to happen from my reading this thread, nor is it safe.

    All these processes do is yield a NET, which may or may not contain any wta!

    WTA, from my understanding of reading Dvaps comments, The alkaloids are extracted, seperated and purified.

    This is not being done in any of these methods.
     
  11. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    You done it again. Not once did ronchinoy call his extracts WTA.

    Maybe not "WTA" the commercial product but certainly the concept of getting "all the alkaloids that are in the tobacco" is being carried out.

    Hey, I just smoked a cigarette and I assure you I got the "whole tobacco alkaloids" from it. No red solo cup or stale beer needed.

    ETA: And yes, I have no idea at what percentages.
     
  12. ronchinoy

    ronchinoy Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 13, 2014
    Bangalore / India
    I call my stuff. My Rons tasty Junk. From now on people will only call it Rons Junk. And you may not use my term in any of your posts or comments or the vaping gods will get upset.

    Some stuff I forgot to mention in my previous post or the original post made before this thread started. Is that pressure and time are two key components in this method. Its really really really labour intensive. I do not see anybody using this method on a commercial scale. And I can also honestlly tell you most of the posts here are either leaving out steps on purpose or by mistake. In my case mistake about missing out on the pressure bit.

    I have a picture and a video on my youtube channel look for rdchinoy at gmail com
    Here is the picture. This is from my latest batch of Mysore Leaf. You tell me what it is since everybody is anal about terms here.
    I vote we call it Rons Junk.
    myalkys.jpg
    That is what I get from about 1/4 Kg Leaf.
    Im not in it for the money. Im in it so I can have a decent crap. Constipation being a serious problem ever since I stopped the analogues. Reason enough to be obsessed about getting it right. It also helps with another term which is only mine. Brain Fog. But Ill over brain fog and the cure on another thread.
    I find this complete idea that the term WTA cant be used is absurd. Then again Im not a vaping god or sponsoring this forum. So I play nice. And try to stick to the rules. If you dont see me again. You know what happend lol.
     
  13. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    Don't you think for the purpose of purchasing said WTA's online that a standard has to be met?

    I don't want to spend $2+ /ml for something I can make myself.

    can I please have the recipe for Ron's Junk?...............lol Seriuosly!

    Don't get so angry with my comments. they where maybe a bit brief.

    Thats is the only reason why I bought it up. I have my own ideas as well and don't post them publicly but I am not that smart in chemistry.

    I agree pressure as well c02 will phase seperate the alkloids. That is how coffee is decafinated now instead of using tolulene and other nasty crap.



    I am not saying you didn't create a WTA. Hell it was done with Morphine 200 years ago.



    And to be fair I didn't know the content of alkloids in a cig. either. but I wasn't specifically buying WTA. I was buying a cig.

    Dvap's comment has a lot of merit. Poppy is not morphine! Nor is it codiene. Get the point about the red solo cup comment!
     
  14. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    Yes, to some degree and that is the difference between "WTA" the commercial product and "WTA" the concept.

    The point was that you didn't need to know the content to use it.

    I don't see WTA as being too specific either. WTA is not nicotine, nor is it anatabine.
     
  15. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    I really am not the anal jerk you think I am. I am not arguing, this is a healthy discussion and i would like to know some things. I would rather not pay the amount, but it cost me more to make it at this point.

    I guess I don't get the point of this thread at this moment.

    WTA is a very confusing term to me at this point. It is not specific enough to me! Does it contain all the alkaloids? or what ever the process used by one person happens to grab and that is good enough?

    I don't know!

    I didn't need to know the alkaloids in a cig. But If I am making or buying tobacco alkaloids don't I need to worry about it?


    Isn't that the same as lets say taking my 100mg/ml bottle of nic. and taking the label off, then storing it with my 24mg base stock not labeled and just grabing either one?

    I am not being sarcastic...............

    This is my whole point.

    What is the objective?
    To get this "STUFF" what ever it is, to a state to be able to titrate it so we know the content is not too high? No one seems to be concerned about this?

    Is it not possible to get it too high?

    Otherwise are we not playing russian roulette with alkaloid STUFF. We are no longer talking about tobacco juice. They are now seperated out and concentrated correct?

    Maybe..........most of the time we are not getting a high enough content? But that is just an assumption........ i don't know?

    What am i missing?
     
  16. Cool_Breeze

    Cool_Breeze Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 10, 2011
    Kentucky
    Stuff that costs 5x what gold costs per weight needs to be cloaked in mystery, danger, intrigue and seemingly complicated production processes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    I hear your point!

    Taken
     
  18. Bagazo

    Bagazo Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2009
    I don't think that and I doubt anyone else does either.

    The point of this thread is the discussion of a method to make a clean extract that contains all the alkaloids in tobacco.

    I think we are all in the same boat.

    A couple weeks ago I made up some 50mg juice with 100mg commercial juice. Did 3 hits and the throat hit kept me from doing any more. I didn't OD. I honestly didn't feel much of anything.

    There are ballpark figures and calculations can be made from them, just like the OP did, to handle things within a "safe" range.
     
  19. cessnapix

    cessnapix Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 3, 2013
    Northeast
    Yes your right! i am being overley cautious. I was just thinking about this running an errand. I know what was throwing my thinking off.

    I still need to find a cheaper process with higher yeilding alkaloids. PGA is not cost prohibitive for me.

    But it is the best tasting so far, with no coil gunking.
     
  20. Smocian257

    Smocian257 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 3, 2014
    Green Valley, Arizona
    alkaloid molecules (flavanoid / tannins etc) are measured in nanometers, 1 nanometer =
    0.001 micron , you wont have to worry about accidentally filtering out individual molecules with micron filtration.

    While I'm here chiming in, I kicked smoking after 6 months vaping by simply switching to tobacco flavors and I'm about to start with some of my own DIY NET's

    Couldn't care less about WTA amounts but I am intrigued about getting rid of chlorophyl and the like. Any reccomendations on a base start? PGA by itself or should I do say a 10% PGA 90% PG as I'm just after better flavor?
     
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