The lady who caught on fire

[kiwivap]

U sir are why lawyers exist. Sorry had to be said.

I'm not a sir (no offence taken )and I've clearly said I don't agree with the litigation part of it. Did you have a constructive argument to make here? You seem unable to separate things and understand what I said. Did you have a point on topic? Could you explain what she did wrong and show me where this is commonly explained as not a good idea to vapers?
She used an ecig car charger which are commonly sold and used by many vapers. I don't blame her for that.
I don't like that she is wanting to litigate.

 

[kiwivap]

Where should she sit - on the roof?

 

[kiwivap]

Double post.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I dunno how frequently it has been discussed throughout the forum, but I have known for a long time that charging from a wall charger is always preferable to charging from a car charger. Do I sometimes put my smart phone on a car charger? Yep. But when I do I make sure it is on the rubberized portion of my console because I know there is a risk associated with it. I know darn well I am taking this risk, even though I am using the charger that was supplied by Motorola with the HTC device when I got it. If it blows up, under no circumstances would I consider a lawsuit.

So when this lady and her husband engage in risky behavior (my perception) and then claim PTSD from the incident, I know instinctively what is going on. They see an opportunity to make a buck and doing the right thing is the last thing on their mind. Sure my instincts could be wrong, but it is unlikely. There is enough circumstantial evidence so far to reasonably conclude that these two are money grubbing pigs who care nothing about being poster children of the FDA and other ANTZ, they want to cash in. More evidence introduced later could change that perception, but that is what we have so far. It is hard to be sympathetic with someone who buys the cheapest thing they can get and then takes zero precautions, but leaves skid marks on the road heading to see a lawyer.

Were they doing something thousands have done and gotten away with previously? Yep. Were they stupid to do it? Maybe not. That is a fair point that they were not necessarily stupid. If they used the charger that came with the battery, they are less responsible for what happened. But they share the responsibility no matter what occurred.

I think the point needs to be made more often and more clearly on this forum that car chargers are by their very nature a bad way to charge your device. I know battery safety has been covered in general, and I know I have read many cautions. I don't know how many times I have read to avoid car chargers. I think at least once or twice. I personally will make it a point to say so more often.

I personally use respected brands of batteries (chiefly AW IMRs) and charge them on my Nitecore Intellicharger. I have no interest in saving 5 bucks on a battery or 10-15 bucks on a charger, I gladly pay the premium for safety. Even still, my charger sits in a spot where a battery incident is not catastrophic. So even in the unlikely event of a battery catastrophic failure, there is little chance of additional damage.

The batteries we use for vaping (and other activities) are not completely safe and should always be handled as such.

 

[It's Only Me]

Why are we arguing amongst ourselves? Remember, united we stand.

The issue here isn't E-Liquid, tanks or otherwise. The issue is electronics and electricity.

We don't need FDA regulation, we need UL regulation. As this case proves.

UL | Batteries

UL | CTIA Battery Cetification Service

UL | Batteries GMA China is listed as voluntary.

 

[kiwivap]

I dunno how frequently it has been discussed throughout the forum, but I have known for a long time that charging from a wall charger is always preferable to charging from a car charger. Do I sometimes put my smart phone on a car charger? Yep. But when I do I make sure it is on the rubberized portion of my console because I know there is a risk associated with it. I know darn well I am taking this risk, even though I am using the charger that was supplied by Motorola with the HTC device when I got it. If it blows up, under no circumstances would I consider a lawsuit.

So when this lady and her husband engage in risky behavior (my perception) and then claim PTSD from the incident, I know instinctively what is going on. They see an opportunity to make a buck and doing the right thing is the last thing on their mind. Sure my instincts could be wrong, but it is unlikely. There is enough circumstantial evidence so far to reasonably conclude that these two are money grubbing pigs who care nothing about being poster children of the FDA and other ANTZ, they want to cash in. More evidence introduced later could change that perception, but that is what we have so far. It is hard to be sympathetic with someone who buys the cheapest thing they can get and then takes zero precautions, but leaves skid marks on the road heading to see a lawyer.

I haven't seen ecig car chargers discussed on the forum, If they were its not been much. And I think some of your comments here are good Eddard. I've seen people recommend to use a wall charger and not a computer usb port. But not all vapers come to the forum - and I think that a new vaper's mindset is often not that they've joined a community but they've bought a new e-cigarette. I know when I was a new vaper myself I didn't even know there was a word "vaper" - I was using an electronic cigarette.
I am wondering why you say she bought the cheapest thing she could get? Vapcigs are not that cheap, and we don't know that she did go for cheap - we can't say that. They are a ton of these kind of ecigs being sold. I don't blame some-one for buying them - when you go online there are a lot of sites and they aren't all cheap. Check out Greensmokes prices for their cigalikes. I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that there are a lot of vapers who use cigalikes, or cheapish egos who don't come to this forum, and see themselves as ecig users. They are part of it too - and when the regulators look I think they see the cigalike and ego users primarily. What I hope is that more publicity will lead to more education.

I see your point about shared responsibility - although I also see a perspective of some-one thinking they are doing the right thing and that they are being responsible. Lots and lots of vendors sell ecig car chargers - so they are part of vaping culture. If they are wrong then we need to clearly know why. Are they wrong? Is this any different to thousands of people who vape a pv and the few reported instances of exploding batteries? We still don't know if the battery was faulty and would have exploded if being charged on a wall outlet. So I'm not convinced beyond saying that we all have an engagement with life that can throw up curve balls. I use AW IMRs too. Larger IMRs are less likely to explosively vent. Yes - I think perhaps we should talk a bit more about car charging - I appreciate your comments there.

It seems to me that dislike of the lawsuit, and the reflection on vaping is one thing - but it doesn't warrant some of the things said about the lady on the other. Where I think she goes wrong is that she wants to sue some-one for what is an unpredictable instance. If one of my pvs blows up when being charged properly I won't sue anyone - I'll take it as an unfortunate accident. That's where I think this lady needs to re-examine things.

 

[kiwivap]

Why are we arguing amongst ourselves? Remember, united we stand.

The issue here isn't E-Liquid, tanks or otherwise. The issue is electronics and electricity.

We don't need FDA regulation, we need UL regulation. As this case proves.

UL | Batteries

UL | CTIA Battery Cetification Service

UL | Batteries GMA China is listed as voluntary.

Now that's an interesting idea - I'm not sure what I think on it right now. I have some more reading to do I guess...

 

[It's Only Me]

Actually, I should have said UL testing, not regulation.

This would cover the wire, insulation, plastic, plugs, voltage regulation, etc. used. It's thorough testing, time consuming and costly. I deal with them on products my company produces.

I imagine that companies, like perhaps in China, that aren't regulated to undergo this testing (or just minimal testing) are celebrating not having to go through it. At perhaps our expense.

Sure, it might cost us a few cents more to know we have a solid product, but what the heck, I'll go for it.

You can not buy a house hold product, like toaster ovens, irons, etc., that doesn't have UL testing. Why not batteries and charging systems for cell phones and e-cigs? [Think house fires]

 

[EddardinWinter]

Fine, I retract that bit about "the cheapest things they can get." I do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that.

It is dangerous using the entry level devices, and we need to do a better job educating new users about it. When you get into Mods, you have the ability to do a much better job of purchasing the safer batteries. But, like most, I started with Blus, then graduated to eGo twists before getting into Mods.

I do think not enough emphasis is placed on paying for better batteries to minimize (not eliminate) risk. I also advocate any vapor who is committed to the process get a good quality Multimeter. I have a Fluke 333 tru RMS meter (maybe a bit of overkill) so I can check batteries when they come off of a charger, ohms from attys, etc. it is another opportunity to reduce the risks of a significant accident. A quality Multimeter can be purchased for about $100 or so from your local hardware store.

If a battery ceases to charge fully, or discharges irregularly, it can be tested and the faulty battery/charger can be identified quickly and removed from service. Some basic knowledge is required of vapors when they commit to this activity. Let's spread the word.

 

[kiwivap]

Fine, I retract that bit about "the cheapest things they can get." I do not have sufficient evidence to conclude that.

It is dangerous using the entry level devices, and we need to do a better job educating new users about it. When you get into Mods, you have the ability to do a much better job of purchasing the safer batteries. But, like most, I started with Blus, then graduated to eGo twists before getting into Mods.

I do think not enough emphasis is placed on paying for better batteries to minimize (not eliminate) risk. I also advocate any vapor who is committed to the process get a good quality Multimeter. I have a Fluke 333 tru RMS meter (maybe a bit of overkill) so I can check batteries when they come off of a charger, ohms from attys, etc. it is another opportunity to reduce the risks of a significant accident. A quality Multimeter can be purchased for about $100 or so from your local hardware store.

If a battery ceases to charge fully, or discharges irregularly, it can be tested and the faulty battery/charger can be identified quickly and removed from service. Some basic knowledge is required of vapors when they commit to this activity. Let's spread the word.

I agree Eddard. It can be tough navigating the minefield of trying to recommend safe batteries sometimes. I saw a thread yesterday where a guy was arguing for batteries with a low C rating, that aren't capable of high drain - for use in mods. I was thinking why would you when there are safer alternatives that will also perform well.

I have a digital multimeter that serves me well. There's a post in the new members forum today where a guy spotted his charger was not working correctly because he checked the battery voltage on his multimeter.
ITsOnlyMe has an interesting idea with the UL- I'm going to read some more on that later.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Actually, I should have said UL testing, not regulation.

This would cover the wire, insulation, plastic, plugs, voltage regulation, etc. used. It's thorough testing, time consuming and costly. I deal with them on products my company produces.

I imagine that companies, like perhaps China, that isn't regulated to undergo this testing (or just minimal testing) is celebrating not having to go through it. At perhaps our expense.

Sure, it might cost us a few cents more to know we have a solid product, but what the heck, I'll go for it.

Fair points there and my buying habits support the spirit of your post. I think some of the products from China are fine, so I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but there are some things I just will not buy from China. Certainly manufacturing and testing standards in Japan and the US generally superior.

Users getting the tools and knowledge required to troubleshoot issues and keep themselves out of trouble is a critical line of defense. Regardless of who makes the device, no QC is perfect. I have witnessed many UL-listed and UL-labelled components fail.

EDIT: I do agree that the UL labeling and listing does provide some greater degree of surety and safety!

 

[It's Only Me]

...It is dangerous using the entry level devices, and we need to do a better job educating new users about it...

...If a battery ceases to charge fully, or discharges irregularly, it can be tested and the faulty battery/charger can be identified quickly and removed from service. Some basic knowledge is required of vapors when they commit to this activity. Let's spread the word.

Until we get testing and regulation on these new household and mobile devices we use (ie: cells and e-cigs), your recommendation of educating ourselves is well said.

That's one of the reasons I'm on ECF!

 

[EddardinWinter]

I consider my knowledge of electrical and mechanical engineering to be well above average. Yet I am not comfortable with sub-ohm mechanical vaping and I don't see significant advantages to it. If others want to do it, they can go right ahead, but when I see new users being encouraged to jump right into it, I literally have to walk away from the thread. I will PM the new user and hope they listen. The use of Mechanical mods as a first or second device is a horrible accident waiting to happen.

I still have a lot to learn about batteries, but I already know a lot more than many of the people I see giving out clearly wrong/dangerous/stupid advice on them. I see people advising users to ignore manufacturer's instructions, disregard warnings, etc. This just makes no sense at all to me. I don't understand what is so wrong with saying, "I don't know much about that, talk to XXXX or YYYY about that." I rely on several much smarter guys (and two girls) than me on ECF when I have questions about many issues.

 

[kiwivap]

I consider my knowledge of electrical and mechanical engineering to be well above average. Yet I am not comfortable with sub-ohm mechanical vaping and I don't see significant advantages to it.

Its not something I'm interested in doing. I have really enjoyed my RBA at around 2.6 ohms. Lowest I went with an RDA was 1.7 ohms.
I understand the appeal of sub-ohm vaping - and there is an appeal or people wouldn't do it. But its not worth the risk to me - and it does concern me that it sometimes seems to be perceived as the cool new thing and new vapers don't understand what's involved and what they are actually asking of their batteries. I'm not against LR as its been understood before this sub-ohm stuff started.

 

[It's Only Me]

I consider my knowledge of electrical and mechanical engineering to be well above average. Yet I am not comfortable with sub-ohm mechanical vaping and I don't see significant advantages to it. If others want to do it, they can go right ahead, but when I see new users being encouraged to jump right into it, I literally have to walk away from the thread. I will PM the new user and hope they listen. The use of Mechanical mods as a first or second device is a horrible accident waiting to happen.

I still have a lot to learn about batteries, but I already know a lot more than many of the people I see giving out clearly wrong/dangerous/stupid advice on them. I see people advising users to ignore manufacturer's instructions, disregard warnings, etc. This just makes no sense at all to me. I don't understand what is so wrong with saying, "I don't know much about that, talk to XXXX or YYYY about that." I rely on several much smarter guys (and two girls) than me on ECF when I have questions about many issues.

To your first part: 2.5 Ohms at 3.7 to 4.0 volts and I can blow vapor to the other side of the room. I don't have to fill the room.
I do find it interesting when I read of brand new vaporrites, after their first week of vaping, find that they are itching to buy a mech mod.

To your second part: Perhaps there can be a list of agreed upon mentors that are listed in a sticky in the new members forum. Not everyone is forum knowledgeable to identify such. This could be the first forum they have ever been on. It took me a while to find a few and a LOT of reading. (Does this list exist and I've missed it?)

 

[zapped]

The high temperature for Phoenix AZ on April 24th 2013 was 90 degrees.

You shouldn't leave any electronics charging unattended in your car in that heat.

Then factor in another 20-30 degrees due to the windows of a vehicle acting like a greenhouse and youre looking at 110-120 degrees. Thats too hot for ANY electronic device and is why people get so bent out of shape when people leave children or pets inside a car as well.

I think the owner was at fault here more than the manufacturer.

 

[frazz]

I hate how it says "she cannot get back into the Dodge Charger because it makes her recall the incident." My car stereo caught on fire and I ripped it out and threw it out the window, never once thought "I can't drive or listen to music because it makes me recall the incident." A generation of "sue everybody."

Maybe it was because she was using the dodge charger instead of an official approved charger?

 

[WattWick]

To your first part: 2.5 Ohms at 3.7 to 4.0 volts and I can blow vapor to the other side of the room. I don't have to fill the room.
I do find it interesting when I read of brand new vaporrites, after their first week of vaping, find that they are itching to buy a mech mod.

To your second part: Perhaps there can be a list of agreed upon mentors that are listed in a sticky in the new members forum. Not everyone is forum knowledgeable to identify such. This could be the first forum they have ever been on. It took me a while to find a few and a LOT of reading. (Does this list exist and I've missed it?)

There are various reasons for this. I for one went the mech mod route for form factor and replaceable batteries I'm able to know the make and thus quality of. I found very quickly that I enjoyed the Vamo more than I did any eGo battery, but it's just too huge. And, once I had a mech mod, I saw no reason not to go for a fairly safe .8ohm coil. As long as my batteries don't get warm, I feel I'm on the safe side. (Safe as in if you've done your research)

On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with this setup and have no desire to experiment with microcoils, multicoils or the path of least resistance. I simply don't see any point in exhaling any more vapor than I currently do.

The one thing I really like about my current setup, and something I haven't been able to achieve otherwise, is the instant and short 2-4 second draws that very much resemble how I used to smoke a ciggy.

Just giving another side of the story. I'm an advocate of "whatever floats your boat".

 

[MiamiMom63]

Word! In the sunlight, unattended cars in Phoenix kill dogs, children, and melt electronics every single year.

I'd go out on a limb and say that this case in particular had nothing to do with a faulty e-cig, and more to do with the heat. Even devices that can survive being in that kind of temperature shouldn't be operated in it.

At school (I'm from Tucson/Phoenix/Las Vegas as a child), they would have us take turns in groups sitting in (attended) cars, in the full sun, in 100+ temperatures, for just a minute to show us how hot it gets.

For anyone who hasn't experienced being in a car in the sun in that kind of heat: 30 seconds would have been enough. It is INCREDIBLE how quickly it gets dangerously hot.

One day in LV was hot enough to melt a TMNT action figure of mine right onto the driveway in an afternoon. No kidding: it was a Shredder, and his little cloth cape was sticking out of a purple/peach colored disfigured plastic chunk that used to be his torso.

In the summer in Florida, just remember that old saying..."it's so hot you can fry an egg on the sidewalk." And yea, you really can. Also, I'm not sure which charger she was using, but I do know that in some circumstances, you require a charger that will handle the extra amps. For example, I have a 5v pass through that I make sure I use with a 2000mah wall adapter and not the cheaper 500 mAh adapters I have. I would think you would need to think similarly when using a car charger. People really need to understand the equipment they are using. Then again, maybe she used it correctly and maybe they didn't leave it to get hot in their car. Things do happen. In that case, yea, the manufacturer needs to know about it. I've heard of egos failing while charging so its possible. Unfortunately, these rare occurrences can happen, but I still choose vaping as a far safer alternative to smoking.

 

[EddardinWinter]

To your first part: 2.5 Ohms at 3.7 to 4.0 volts and I can blow vapor to the other side of the room. I don't have to fill the room.
I do find it interesting when I read of brand new vaporrites, after their first week of vaping, find that they are itching to buy a mech mod.

To your second part: Perhaps there can be a list of agreed upon mentors that are listed in a sticky in the new members forum. Not everyone is forum knowledgeable to identify such. This could be the first forum they have ever been on. It took me a while to find a few and a LOT of reading. (Does this list exist and I've missed it?)

It does not that I am aware of. It is a good idea. I can talk to my mentors and see what they think, and even a Moderator or two. The moderators spend more time chastising me (pictures which push the envelope of forum limits, flaming, being a general troublemaker) as getting help from me, so this cause might need a different ambassador/champion. I know several candidates that have participated in this very thread.

I won't volunteer the names of those that have helped me without their permission. They are happy to field a few questions from Edd, but I do not know if they would appreciate an inundation of 100 per day without consent. Perhaps a thread might be set up for them to rotate stewardship of, to lessen the burden.