the lesser of 2 evils

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Skinr1

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Had no idea that study was done, interesting read!

Glad you posted :thumbup:

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i read through this as well , and for anyone who hasnt here is the article in full view
PHILADELPHIA, Aug. 8, 2013/PRNewwire-USNewswire -- E-cigarette users can breathe a little easier today. A study just released by Professor Igor Burstyn, Drexel University School of Public Health, confirms that chemicals in electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) pose no health concern for users or bystanders. This is the first definitive study of e-cigarette chemistry and finds that there are no health concerns based on generally accepted exposure limits.


E-cigarettes are devices that heat a nicotine solution to create an aerosol (called “vapor”) that the user inhales, similar to smoking a cigarette. They are used as a low-risk substitute for smoking by millions of former smokers, and their increasing popularity seems to account for the current downward trend in smoking in the U.S. and some other countries. While experts agree that the risks posed by e-cigarettes are significantly less than those posed by smoking, there had been some debate about how much lower the risk was.


By reviewing over 9,000 observations about the chemistry of the vapor and the liquid in e-cigarettes, Dr. Burstyn was able to determine that the levels of contaminants e-cigarette users are exposed to are insignificant, far below levels that would pose any health risk. Additionally, there is no health risk to bystanders. Proposals to ban e-cigarettes in places where smoking is banned have been based on concern there is a potential risk to bystanders, but the study shows there is no concern.


This was the first study funded by the by The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives (CASAA) Research Fund. CASAA, the leading consumer advocacy group promoting the availability and use of low-risk alternatives to smoking, is an all-volunteer, donation-funded organization. CASAA President Elaine Keller said of the study, “Over the years, there have been a lot of small studies of e-cigarette liquid and vapor, but those studies were either ignored or misinterpreted. Those that showed even the slightest contamination were used for propaganda by those who object to e-cigarettes because they look like smoking. We realized that an expert review was needed to give an unbiased explanation of the available scientific evidence for our membership and policy makers. We reached out to our membership and they enthusiastically donated to make it possible.”


CASAA Scientific Director, Carl V. Phillips, summarized the importance of the study, saying “It has always been clear that e-cigarettes were much lower risk than smoking, but there was uncertainty about whether continuing to inhale a mix of chemicals posed a measurable risk. Even those of us who have long encouraged smokers to switch are a bit surprised that even the worst-case-scenario risks are so low. This study assures us that e-cigarettes are as low risk as other smoke-free tobacco and nicotine products, like smokeless tobacco and NRT. All of these products are about 99% less harmful than smoking, and so smokers who switch to them gain basically the same health benefits as if they quit tobacco and nicotine entirely.”


Dr. Phillips added that “there has been a call for ‘regulatory science’ by the FDA. This is exactly the type of science that is needed to make good regulation and informed individual decisions: it summarizes all of the available knowledge and puts the numbers in a useful perspective.”


The study did caution that e-cigarette users are inhaling substantial quantities of the main chemicals in e-cigarette liquid (propylene glycol and glycerin). While these chemicals are not considered dangerous and the levels are far below occupational exposure limits, Dr. Burstyn did suggest ongoing monitoring to confirm that there is no risk. The chemical contaminants are of even less concern. While there have been many claims that formaldehyde, acrolein, nitrosamines, metals, and ethylene glycol found in e-cigarette vapor poses a health hazard, the study concluded that all of these have been found only at trivial levels that pose no health concern.


The study did not address the effects of nicotine because e-cigarette users are consuming it intentionally. Nicotine, when it does not involve smoking, is very low risk and has not been clearly shown to cause any disease. However, like caffeine and other common indulgences, it may cause some tiny risk of heart attack and stroke, and so e-cigarettes, along with other tobacco and nicotine products, are probably not risk-free. If there is any risk from nicotine, however, it is so low that it is similar to everyday hazards like drinking coffee or eating dessert, and is far less than the risk from smoking.


in this tread i have seen a few disagree with the title mostly about this post but in the article , by the CASAA you clearly see the words being used such as ( Low risk ) ( minimal ) ( much lower risk ) ok if words like that are being used hence ( the Lesser of 2 evils )
there is a risk Factor involved . yes its low but its there however any alternative to smoking tobacco that buys you 1 more day or 1 more week of life is better then nothing .
 

TheJakeBailey

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Didn't read the whole thread, but...
Isn't life almost always about choosing? There are ups and downs to every CHOICE that YOU make. ( ever voted?) For me vaping vs smoking is not a hard decision at all. In fact, it has been one if the easiest.
In its simplest form... Option A will absolutely effect every aspect of your health up to and including killing you. Option B gives me dry mouth. As of this time, option b seems a good choice.

I understand the what if scenarios. But you damn straight know for a fact what smoking does to you. If YOU want to smoke, then YOU can. I wont even try to stop you. But don't try to drag the rest of us down the wormhole with doom and gloom and dire predictions. I've already made MY choice, and it is the correct one for me.
 

Denrock316

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I've quit smoking for over 90 days now. I have noticed huge improvements in my lung function and how I feel overall. I can taste and smell way better. I don't get winded easily like used to, and I have much more energy. I'm definitely not going back to smoking ever. I see vaping more as the cure to an evil than the lesser of 2.

PS- I smoked about 1 to 1.5 packs a day for almost 22 years.
 

Ryedan

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i read through this as well , and for anyone who hasnt here is the article in full view



"CASAA Scientific Director, Carl V. Phillips, summarized the importance of the study, saying “It has always been clear that e-cigarettes were much lower risk than smoking, but there was uncertainty about whether continuing to inhale a mix of chemicals posed a measurable risk. Even those of us who have long encouraged smokers to switch are a bit surprised that even the worst-case-scenario risks are so low. This study assures us that e-cigarettes are as low risk as other smoke-free tobacco and nicotine products, like smokeless tobacco and NRT. All of these products are about 99% less harmful than smoking, and so smokers who switch to them gain basically the same health benefits as if they quit tobacco and nicotine entirely.



The study did caution that e-cigarette users are inhaling substantial quantities of the main chemicals in e-cigarette liquid (propylene glycol and glycerin). While these chemicals are not considered dangerous and the levels are far below occupational exposure limits, Dr. Burstyn did suggest ongoing monitoring to confirm that there is no risk. The chemical contaminants are of even less concern. While there have been many claims that formaldehyde, acrolein, nitrosamines, metals, and ethylene glycol found in e-cigarette vapor poses a health hazard, the study concluded that all of these have been found only at trivial levels that pose no health concern.



The study did not address the effects of nicotine because e-cigarette users are consuming it intentionally. Nicotine, when it does not involve smoking, is very low risk and has not been clearly shown to cause any disease. However, like caffeine and other common indulgences, it may cause some tiny risk of heart attack and stroke, and so e-cigarettes, along with other tobacco and nicotine products, are probably not risk-free. If there is any risk from nicotine, however, it is so low that it is similar to everyday hazards like drinking coffee or eating dessert, and is far less than the risk from smoking."


in this tread i have seen a few disagree with the title mostly about this post but in the article , by the CASAA you clearly see the words being used such as ( Low risk ) ( minimal ) ( much lower risk ) ok if words like that are being used hence ( the Lesser of 2 evils )
there is a risk Factor involved . yes its low but its there however any alternative to smoking tobacco that buys you 1 more day or 1 more week of life is better then nothing .

OK, let's recap:

Smokers who switch to vaping gain basically the same health benefits as if they quit tobacco and nicotine entirely.

E-juice chemicals are not considered dangerous and the levels are far below occupational exposure limits.

Chemical contaminants in juice and from hardware are of even less concern than juice chemicals.

Risk from vaped nicotine it is so low that it is similar to everyday hazards like drinking coffee or eating dessert.



So yes, there are risks associated with vaping. These risks equal the risks people who do not smoke or use nicotine face. Juice contents risk is less than the risk people are permitted to face every day in the workplace and contamination in our vape is even less risk than that.

But you still consider vaping the 'lesser of two evils', meaning that vaping is evil.

Do you consider driving a car, going for a walk, eating lunch, going for a swim, going to a concert, riding on the subway and popping in to the bank evil also? I mean people die doing all these things. Is life evil?

Just trying to understand your logic Skinr1, but I'm not getting it.
 
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permafrying

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OK, let's recap:

Smokers who switch to vaping gain basically the same health benefits as if they quit tobacco and nicotine entirely.

E-juice chemicals are not considered dangerous and the levels are far below occupational exposure limits.

Chemical contaminants in juice and from hardware are of even less concern than juice chemicals.

Risk from vaped nicotine it is so low that it is similar to everyday hazards like drinking coffee or eating dessert.



So yes, there are risks associated with vaping. These risks equal the risks people who do not smoke or use nicotine face. Juice contents risk is less than the risk people are permitted to face every day in the workplace and contamination in our vape is even less risk than that.

But you still consider vaping the 'lesser of two evils', meaning that vaping is evil.

Do you consider driving a car, going for a walk, eating lunch, going for a swim, going to a concert, riding on the subway and popping in to the bank evil also? I mean people die doing all these things. Is life evil?

Just trying to understand your logic Skinr1, but I'm not getting it.

Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet but it is still a lesser of two evils. Now! I agree and it has been shown that vaping is faaaaar less harmfull. Still harmfull like basically anything else you do in life like going outside and being in the sun for instance... But addiction is a thing to consider in all of this. Vaping Is addictive your still. Using it for nic and if not you still want that feeling or you just want your toys. So it's a lesser of two evils on a very skewed scale because vaping is far less harmful but an addiction is an addiction. Drugs sex cigarettes alcohol exercise tv gambling. Any addiction is still evil. Some people will say once an addict always an addict (usually prior drug addicts which i can fall into the category of) but that's far from true so you really are just trading one addiction for another. Not to say don't vape but we're All still addicts

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e-pipeman

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Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet but it is still a lesser of two evils. Now! I agree and it has been shown that vaping is faaaaar less harmfull. Still harmfull like basically anything else you do in life like going outside and being in the sun for instance... But addiction is a thing to consider in all of this. Vaping Is addictive your still. Using it for nic and if not you still want that feeling or you just want your toys. So it's a lesser of two evils on a very skewed scale because vaping is far less harmful but an addiction is an addiction. Drugs sex cigarettes alcohol exercise tv gambling. Any addiction is still evil. Some people will say once an addict always an addict (usually prior drug addicts which i can fall into the category of) but that's far from true so you really are just trading one addiction for another. Not to say don't vape but we're All still addicts

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Not sure about this. I can take a 5 hr flight on an aeroplane now without wanting to tear my head off and stick cigarettes in the stump. I was always crawling the walls when I couldn't smoke.

People can be addicted to coffee - is that an evil? When it provides health benefits?

Just because something has addictive properties does not make it evil per se imho..
 

permafrying

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Not sure about this. I can take a 5 hr flight on an aeroplane now without wanting to tear my head off and stick cigarettes in the stump. I was always crawling the walls when I couldn't smoke.

People can be addicted to coffee - is that an evil? When it provides health benefits?

Just because something has addictive properties does not make it evil per se imho..

An addiction isn't always based off of short time limits. Five hours is easy for some addictions but go a week and you might get some itches. I'm not saying it's highly addictive to all but it is to some and it's definitely addictive to most. I classify any addiction as an evil. Coffee included because it can also cause negative side affects like lacking energy in general without caffeine. Along with how bad it can make your body feel depending on the person.

but that's just my opinion not everyone sees all addictions as evil. I definitely see where your coming though i just look at things a little differently.

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Ryedan

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Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet but it is still a lesser of two evils. Now! I agree and it has been shown that vaping is faaaaar less harmfull. Still harmfull like basically anything else you do in life like going outside and being in the sun for instance... But addiction is a thing to consider in all of this. Vaping Is addictive your still. Using it for nic and if not you still want that feeling or you just want your toys. So it's a lesser of two evils on a very skewed scale because vaping is far less harmful but an addiction is an addiction. Drugs sex cigarettes alcohol exercise tv gambling. Any addiction is still evil. Some people will say once an addict always an addict (usually prior drug addicts which i can fall into the category of) but that's far from true so you really are just trading one addiction for another. Not to say don't vape but we're All still addicts

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Have a look at this permafrying: All about Nicotine (and Addiction)
 

permafrying

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Have a look at this permafrying: All about Nicotine (and Addiction)

I skimmed a little bit and wanted to say this. I do plan on reading it. But I see addictions from the psychological side. So regardless of the substance or whatever in particular it is. Anything and I do mean anything can be addictive. Time to read! Lol I do love reading material though thanks man. Reading a little more I wish nic worked for my add :-\

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Ryedan

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Not sure about this. I can take a 5 hr flight on an aeroplane now without wanting to tear my head off and stick cigarettes in the stump. I was always crawling the walls when I couldn't smoke.

People can be addicted to coffee - is that an evil? When it provides health benefits?

Just because something has addictive properties does not make it evil per se imho..

I hear the same from a lot of people here. Heck, I forget to vape for a few hours sometimes. That never happened when I smoked.
 

Subdivisions

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Not sure about this. I can take a 5 hr flight on an aeroplane now without wanting to tear my head off and stick cigarettes in the stump. I was always crawling the walls when I couldn't smoke.

People can be addicted to coffee - is that an evil? When it provides health benefits?

Just because something has addictive properties does not make it evil per se imho..


I was in the hospital for 3 days last month for some surgery. Granted, I was a bit hopped up on some pain killers but I didn't even have an urge to smoke. I didn't even touch the vape until a couple days after I was home. A year ago I would have had my wife wheeling me outside every hour to smoke. It's proof to me that the chemicals in cigarettes work in a way to increase the addictive properties. I don't find nicotine on its own to be nearly as addictive as cigarettes.
 

Thamyris

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i started smoking analogs when i was 12 yrs of age i am currently 43 and have been analog free for less then a year,
i can say i have seen great changes in my energy and in many things as simple as smell to taste to simple breathing on doing streanous activities...
i can say i am almost like a new person to the point that i cant even think or want to be a smoker ever again.
yes im not that old of a vapor but i know myself and i know i can completely see a difference in how not smoking actual smoke has greatly affected my health in a good positive way.
i even get around smokers and am like OMG did i actually smell like that to others?

I do not believe it is a fad.i believe it is a safer and less harmful alternative to ones addiction to nic, and also a way to get away from nic if one truly desires to do so.
 

blondeambition3

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have we all really stopped smoking or is it just a fad ?
first let me start by saying that im sure many of us are aware smoking is an evil and extremely addictive habit
and
being relatively new to vaping and off reg cigs for 50 days now I wanted to learn as much about ecigs as I could so I have spent a lot of time reading every article on the web I could find and also different sections of several forums in reguards to various different topics , from problems with ecigs
to possible side effects and so on and so on and so on, the goods the bads , and since there really are no solid long term studies avail on these items are we really
stopping smoking ?? or are we just smoking something else ? its certainly clear that both smoking real cigs and vaping both come complete with their own set of related issues ,as does anything else , I personally know people that have smoked and vaped and they claimed
they felt no different health wise at all , I also know people that smoked tried vaping saw no personal benefits in vaping and went back to smoking...... so clearly both smoking and vaping have their own pros and cons .
so what are we really doing are we stopping smoking or are we just smoking something else instead ?
and are we destined to return to Cigs in the end ???
in all the people I know that have tried vaping and I know many that have tried I can honestly say its been a 50/50 failure/ success rate from what ive seen.
now lets be honest cigs are extremely addictive
several issues ive heard about from friends that have tried vaping but returned to reg smoking
burning throat
dry mouth
heavy feeling in lungs
shortness of breath
acne issues
PG sensitivity
burning nazel passages and congestion

one of my friends said it felt like I was taking a medication with nagging daily side effects vaping that never really went away
so it just wasnt worth it
smoking reg cigs didn't do any of that to me on a daily basis ....so he went back to smoking . and he was vaping and off cigs for 16 weeks .he returned to cigs just this past week and stopped vaping , because he said vaping just wasn't fun anymore and wasn't worth the way he was feeling and now he says he feels fine
now we all know vaping and ecigs use are just like anything else they aren't for everyone

I did recently read an article that was a 2 year study of 500 participants all smokers that were put on ecigs
and over 80% reported failure and returned to smoking so
the question is are we all just looking at ecigs as the lesser of 2 evils for the moment ? because its a popular fad
and someday will we all most likely return to cigs ?
and does anyone really know of anyone that has been successful at stopping smoking cigs and vaping and now do neither ???
also if the FDA or the government suddenly clamped down on ecig use would you return to smoking ?
are ecigs really the lesser of 2 evils and how do we know that for sure ??

any opinions welcomed .


I quit smoking (Cold Turkey due to illness), over 3 years before I started vaping, so there's no chance I'd ever go back to smoking. Ever.

My lungs are clear, (I have no phlegm whatsoever). I have energy with no loss of breath.... I can taste and smell as I did before I ever smoked. I even got my 'teen-age' voice back. Vaping has freed me from all of THOSE smoking side-effects that I dealt with for 27 years that I was a smoker.

I've experienced none of the adverse symptoms you've stated that are allegedly vaping-related. If vaping what is equivalent to Tea-Kettle steam is 'evil', then I've chosen by far, the lesser of two evils. Drinking coffee is probably just as 'evil', if not more.

I believe many people who 'attempt' to switch from smoking to vaping are still under tremendous addiction to the cigarettes and are unable to transition smoothly to eCigs because of same. The withdrawal from cigarettes can and does however, produce all of the symptoms many are falsely contributing to the eCigs. You have to really 'want' to quit smoking, and most Tobacco addicts, due to the painful and unpleasant symptoms of withdrawals stated above, statistically are unable to.

My older Brother, (who smoked until he had to have open-heart, double by-pass surgery at the age of 49), successfully quit smoking with eCigs. He's now 63 years old, and at his last physical lung exam, his Dr. indicated that his lungs were finally clear (as in normal), with no signs of disease, which was not the case previously. The Dr. was astounded to say the least, and gave my Brother a 'big thumbs up' where vaping was concerned.

I don't know about anyone else, but as for myself, as well as many other Friends and Relatives that have switched to vaping. It's no fad.... We're never smoking EVER again.

Be careful 'what' you read, the ANTZ Orgs and BT are deliberately printing mis information all over the place. Of course they want you to think there's no 'safer' alternatives to Smoking. C'mon, you already know why. ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) :glare:

IMHO there are no CONS to vaping, just don't 'do' it unless you're SURE you want to live with the lesser of two evils. :smokie:
 
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Uma

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OK, let's recap:

Smokers who switch to vaping gain basically the same health benefits as if they quit tobacco and nicotine entirely.

E-juice chemicals are not considered dangerous and the levels are far below occupational exposure limits.

Chemical contaminants in juice and from hardware are of even less concern than juice chemicals.

Risk from vaped nicotine it is so low that it is similar to everyday hazards like drinking coffee or eating dessert.



So yes, there are risks associated with vaping. These risks equal the risks people who do not smoke or use nicotine face. Juice contents risk is less than the risk people are permitted to face every day in the workplace and contamination in our vape is even less risk than that.

But you still consider vaping the 'lesser of two evils', meaning that vaping is evil.

Do you consider driving a car, going for a walk, eating lunch, going for a swim, going to a concert, riding on the subway and popping in to the bank evil also? I mean people die doing all these things. Is life evil?

Just trying to understand your logic Skinr1, but I'm not getting it.

+1~!!!!!

here's an article of interest just posted in the media sub forum. Somebody's actually furthering smoke studies to the next frontier.
http://www.scienceworldreport.com/a...e-sole-addiction-causing-agent-cigarettes.htm
 

Skinr1

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Haven't had a chance to read the entire thread yet but it is still a lesser of two evils. Now! I agree and it has been shown that vaping is faaaaar less harmfull. Still harmfull like basically anything else you do in life like going outside and being in the sun for instance... But addiction is a thing to consider in all of this. Vaping Is addictive your still. Using it for nic and if not you still want that feeling or you just want your toys. So it's a lesser of two evils on a very skewed scale because vaping is far less harmful but an addiction is an addiction. Drugs sex cigarettes alcohol exercise tv gambling. Any addiction is still evil. Some people will say once an addict always an addict (usually prior drug addicts which i can fall into the category of) but that's far from true so you really are just trading one addiction for another. Not to say don't vape but we're All still addicts

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exactly Bravo sir , that's the exact point you saw it were all addicts ,,,,,,,,,,,,we are all addicts in 1 form or another hence all we did was trade 1 for 1 the lesser of 2 evils .
 
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