Lol a vaper is not a human I suppose. You win. A+
The Muffin Man and The Milk Man - Company's response to Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl
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Thats quite a fallacious statement. Just because all vapers are human doesn't mean all humans are vapers. Their statement is correct.
to bad the comments are locked.
it was mentioned in the story that two no-smoking workers
were diagnosed in 1985 with popcorn lung.
i can find no reference to this. perhaps this is where
the reference to two non-smokers comes from in later
literature. the earliest verifiable diagnoses i can find
are the 8 workers in 2000 reoccurring infrequently in other factory's
to about 2003. the first non-factory worker was diagnosed in 2005.
i believe another non-worker was diagnosed put the statue of limitations had
passed. there could possibly be a third non-worker but, its hard to tell
from the literature as references are not always sourced.
all 2-3 had consumed copious amounts of microwave popcorn.
during that time 2 or 3 workers in a factory making the flavorings
were diagnosed with OB. it hasn't been until this year and the two
workers in Texas that cases of OB have been diagnosed in workers.
its interesting to note that the recurring conditions in the vast
majority of these cases is high heat,diacetyl and,popcorn.
hence the term popcorn lung,minus the two Texas worker and
the two or three in the flavoring plant.
no cases were ever reported when diacetly and acetyl have been
suspended in a viscous liquid.
there was no mention if the Texas workers were wearing protective
masks.
this story is what i mean by taking facts and coming up with the wrong
conclusions,reminiscent of the the chef and restaurant worker scare
that was circulated in 2008 concerning these same flavorings.
regards
mike
What about the coffee roasters and the bakers? If I'm going to play a game of Bet Your Lungs I'd feel much more comfortable taking the advice of Dr. Kurt over Google searches.
two coffee workers. i can't find any verifiable reports of any bakers,candle or candy makers,
frozen processed food workers,chefs,dry processed food workers,etc,etc..
20 to 30 people maybe total.
mike
Should be able to backtrack them from the article. Some company names were given along with some of the doctors. Few of the highlights.
Watchdog Report - Gasping for Action
"Within months of seeing Diaz de Leon, Stocks identified four other workers at the coffee plant with the same life-threatening illness."
"The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel first wrote about diacetyl in 2006 when a young Wisconsin man became ill working in a flavoring factory in Milwaukee and a 41-year-old flavor worker near Chicago was diagnosed with bronchiolitis obliterans. He had lost 76% of his lung capacity."
"But cases of bronchiolitis obliterans had surfaced in food processing workers years earlier. Two young, previously healthy workers at an Indiana baking company were diagnosed in 1985. The workers, who didn't smoke, had been working at the plant less than a year when their symptoms arose. Diacetyl was among the ingredients used at the bakery."
"In the 1990s, a handful of employees at a Cincinnati-based flavoring company, Tastemaker, were identified with the illness"
"A cream cheese manufacturer in New York, where in April 2011 inspectors found diacetyl and dangerous substitute chemicals in the air. More than a dozen workers reported respiratory problems. The factory did not have adequate exhaust and ventilation."
"A snack manufacturer in New York, where in May 2012 inspectors found low levels of diacetyl in the air and at least one worker had developed a serious lung disease. Employees were not required to wear respirators, even though earlier air sampling showed higher levels oftoxic diacetyl substitutes."
"A pet food maker in Missouri, where in December 2012 inspectors found the company used products that could release diacetyl into the air. The company did not have a formal respiratory protection plan. Two employees were diagnosed with serious lung disease."
Watchdog Report - Gasping for Action
"Within months of seeing Diaz de Leon, Stocks identified four other workers at the coffee plant with the same life-threatening illness."
"The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel first wrote about diacetyl in 2006 when a young Wisconsin man became ill working in a flavoring factory in Milwaukee and a 41-year-old flavor worker near Chicago was diagnosed with bronchiolitis obliterans. He had lost 76% of his lung capacity."
"But cases of bronchiolitis obliterans had surfaced in food processing workers years earlier. Two young, previously healthy workers at an Indiana baking company were diagnosed in 1985. The workers, who didn't smoke, had been working at the plant less than a year when their symptoms arose. Diacetyl was among the ingredients used at the bakery."
"In the 1990s, a handful of employees at a Cincinnati-based flavoring company, Tastemaker, were identified with the illness"
"A cream cheese manufacturer in New York, where in April 2011 inspectors found diacetyl and dangerous substitute chemicals in the air. More than a dozen workers reported respiratory problems. The factory did not have adequate exhaust and ventilation."
"A snack manufacturer in New York, where in May 2012 inspectors found low levels of diacetyl in the air and at least one worker had developed a serious lung disease. Employees were not required to wear respirators, even though earlier air sampling showed higher levels oftoxic diacetyl substitutes."
"A pet food maker in Missouri, where in December 2012 inspectors found the company used products that could release diacetyl into the air. The company did not have a formal respiratory protection plan. Two employees were diagnosed with serious lung disease."
so we have one case from 2004,some respiratory problems and one serious case
of un-named lung illness and two making dog food also with an un-named illness.
apparently all not having used protective measures.
aside from the two workers in Texas not a single case of popcorn lung
from after 2004.
according to government publications i can not find any references to
OB being reported in the industry prior to 1999.
all together not a bad record for an industry that employs over a million
and a half people.
regards
mike
As someone that chain vapes Milk Man, the low percentage of popcorn lung isn't really scaring me. I live in Vegas where 60 pedestrians were struck and killed by cars in 2013. I am a pedestrian. I'll take my chances with Milk Man.
I have to admit these creamy vapes taste lush, they are very addictive. I didn't fancy going back over this entire thread to check but Vaporshark has the analysis report about The Milkman & The Muffin Man, of course they contain Diacetyl. All these creamy juices, custards and the like do, of course they do!!! The fact that they do and the company lied, these companies buy their ingredients and mix their juice, Diacetyl is an additive that makes creamy juices creamy. These people are making big money fast, they do not want to rock their own boat.so we have one case from 2004,some respiratory problems and one serious case
of un-named lung illness and two making dog food also with an un-named illness.
apparently all not having used protective measures.
aside from the two workers in Texas not a single case of popcorn lung
from after 2004.
according to government publications i can not find any references to
OB being reported in the industry prior to 1999.
all together not a bad record for an industry that employs over a million
and a half people.
regards
mike
The only reason this whole issue started is because a renowned surgeon & scientist who supports vapers Dr Farsalinos reckoned these chemicals were iffy, he would rather see them excluded and us have a safer ejuice, what is so wrong with that?? What could be more worse, a few years down the road & thousands of us start contracting lung cancers due to vaping vast quantities of these ejuices. At least with smoking it was blatantly making us ill, this stuff could sneak up and bite us all in the .....
There's lots of words I could use to describe your apathetic behaviour, are you in some of these vendors pockets? Do you make your own creamy ejuice and sell vast quantities for tens of thousands of dollars/pounds. These vendors are milking us, creaming us lol excuse the puns they could be potentially killing us, but who would know, and you don't even care!!! Are you a scientist?? do you have the same kind of skilled trained knowledge as Dr Farsalinos?? People perish through a lack of knowledge, I personally would like to see all ejuice vendors with info like Vaporshark has. That way its out there, the choice is yours. I would also like to see some serious in depth studies into vaping these chemicals.
So what so some guy asked, I asked my vendor to provide proof, almost demanded, if he wants my over a £1000 annual business then I want some facts. These people need to provide the information, or regulation will be required, better we do it ourselves, and fast, before governments figure it out too!
Ever seen those signs at the side of the road "falling rocks" the potential to be a dangerous environment, would you rather those signs didn't exist, would you prefer we chance our arm and if a landslide happens and we get crushed tough ...., people like that should be treated with the contempt they deserve, this is my two penneth of contempt ; )
i believe the good Doctor referred to these as a potential risk
and could and or should just be avoided.
his own estimates indicated less than one in a thousand cases
of serious lung illness over a 30 to 40 year exposure.
what does that mean to you and me? nothing.
at a rate that low it couldn't be proven what caused the illness.
regards
mike
i believe the good Doctor referred to these as a potential risk
and could and or should just be avoided.
his own estimates indicated less than one in a thousand cases
of serious lung illness over a 30 to 40 year exposure.
what does that mean to you and me? nothing.
at a rate that low it couldn't be proven what caused the illness.
regards
mike
Dr. F has never made such an assertion. You have been called on it and asked for a source numerous times and repeatedly failed to provide one.
The one in a thousand number you hurl around, is a NIOSH estimation of the chances of developing a serious lung disease, if it's recommendation of 5 parts per billion in ambient air in the work place is followed, in addition to proper ventilation in the work place. Dr. F has extrapolated those numbers to arrive at 65 parts per million in eliquid for diacetyl and 130 for AP.
As you are well aware the numbers in just one ml ( let alone 5 or 10 mls that some vapers consume ) of some eliquids is way higher than those limits.
At some point we have to consider that the constant repetition of your ( unvaryingly and invariably ) false " talking points ", is not just an inability to properly comprehend scientific studies, but a deliberate attempt to spread misinformation.
The problem I always see in these type of threads is that people want a perfectly healthy smoking alternative which just doesn't exist. You know marijuana is now legal in Colorado and causes much more damage to lungs than vaping. But we don't see people complaining about it. Dr. F. is one guy and just because a doctor says something doesn't make it the holy trinity. I've said this numerous times. Vaping "is" bad for you. It may destroy your lungs or cause cancer. But the risk just from personal experience will tell one that it is healthier than smoking. Much healthier. But here's the thing. If you're vaping now and your 22, for example, you might very well have some complications when you get older. Just like smoking. What you're doing is making that point further down the line and even lessening that risk to potentially "0".
The report recently released by the UK states that vaping is 95% less risky than smoking. That is significant. And should tell one that ones risk is greatly reduced but not eliminated.
Another point. Pain is the great indicator. If one is experiencing pain while they vape then they need to change something. Remember smoking? Yea that thing that many of us have no interest in anymore. What were the indicators/pain. They were coughing, wheezing, difficulty breathing, low exertion, light-headedness, aching gums, sore throats, colds etc. etc... . These are all indicators that something was wrong. Cancer is sort of a different animal because there are a fair amount of people who get cancers that didn't smoke or do behavior bad for them but die horribly. Doctors are still baffled by people who get cancers and can't always show a direct relation to bad behavior.
But you can guarantee that if you are harming your lungs, there will be pain. Popcorn lung doesn't just happen overnight. There are indicators.
Does diacetyl cause popcorn lung.....maybe. Will you get popcorn lung, very likely not. Cigs had tons of the stuff in them. Much more than e-liquid. Should you be vaping it no. No one should vape anything except maybe some eucalyptus distributed by a humidifier.
The report recently released by the UK states that vaping is 95% less risky than smoking. That is significant. And should tell one that ones risk is greatly reduced but not eliminated.
Another point. Pain is the great indicator. If one is experiencing pain while they vape then they need to change something. Remember smoking? Yea that thing that many of us have no interest in anymore. What were the indicators/pain. They were coughing, wheezing, difficulty breathing, low exertion, light-headedness, aching gums, sore throats, colds etc. etc... . These are all indicators that something was wrong. Cancer is sort of a different animal because there are a fair amount of people who get cancers that didn't smoke or do behavior bad for them but die horribly. Doctors are still baffled by people who get cancers and can't always show a direct relation to bad behavior.
But you can guarantee that if you are harming your lungs, there will be pain. Popcorn lung doesn't just happen overnight. There are indicators.
Does diacetyl cause popcorn lung.....maybe. Will you get popcorn lung, very likely not. Cigs had tons of the stuff in them. Much more than e-liquid. Should you be vaping it no. No one should vape anything except maybe some eucalyptus distributed by a humidifier.
the Doctor has referenced these figures in his presentations. whether
or not they were his own I don't recall.
as far as what you consider false,misleading,or repetitious,
I believe it would be fair to say there's plenty to go around on
both sides.
I however am not pretentious enough to be pointing fingers.
edit:I have provided sources in the past.
Regards
mike
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Dr. F : The high levels of diketones in some eliquids in the market is of serious concern .... Niosh has recommended an average exposure of no more than 5 parts per billion in factory settings in order to keep the odds of developing serious lung disease in workers to less than one in one thousand.
Skoony : Dr. F himself has estimated that there is less than one in one thousand chance of developing serious lung disease in vapors after 30 to 40 years of exposure !!!
Me: You have been called out on this gross distortion of Dr. F's position numerous times, and yet you keep on repeating it.
Skoony : I don't care if you think it is false or misleading or a lie, because i believe the other side does it too, and if you call me out on it it must be because you are pretentious !
Priceless !
Huh?
Mike is sometimes blunt. And sometimes I have to read what he's written a few times to understand. But I have NEVER seen him grossly misrepresent anything. A few others in this thread however...
Mike is sometimes blunt. And sometimes I have to read what he's written a few times to understand. But I have NEVER seen him grossly misrepresent anything. A few others in this thread however...
I have no issues at all with his " bluntness " nor do i have any problems understanding what he is trying to say. But if :
his own estimates indicated less than one in a thousand cases
of serious lung illness over a 30 to 40 year exposure.
is not a gross misrepresentation of Dr. F's position on the diketone issue, i don't know what is. Dr. F has been a pioneer on vaping related studies and one of the most pro vape scientists around, but he has expressed a concern regarding diketones in numerous interviews and articles. So much so that some vapers who don't agree with his position, have labelled him a " fear monger " on this issue. His position on this issue is not equivocal.
I don't have a problem with vapers who disagree with his position, but i do have a problem with those who distort his message.
If you think that my summary of our exchange, distorts it's true nature, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Btw, i believe it's admirable that you are sticking up for your friend, so long as you don't distort Dr.F's message in the process ( and you haven't ).
I don't have Dr F's exact quote in front of me, but it sounds like he's extrapolating industrial exposure stats to vaping... which, imo, is a mistake, because it's not apples to apples, but one in a thousand, over 30-40 years, still sounds high for the industrial setting, much less for vaping.
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