The Mythology of Steeping Part II

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RobertNC

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The primary thing to understand about aging liquids is ideas of physical changes which have been described, which I will describe as "partitioning effects" - partitioning between solids, partitioning between PG and VG - do not occur. In reality all changes which you observe in taste of a liquid have a common underlying cause - a change in chemical composition of the liquid.

There are several major categories of change which can be applicable in any given liquid system:

1) Loss of components.

2) Degradation or reaction of components.

3) Changes in ionic state, i.e. pH effects.

These may be inter-related, for example, degradation or reaction of a component necessarily means some of that component is also lost. The distinctions should become clearer on further consideration.

1a) Loss of components by deposition. In this case the concentration of a component in a liquid solution is lowered because the component is either adsorbed out of the solution by the container or the component may be only marginally stable in solution and falls out as either a visible or possibly not easily visible film or layer on the container.

This mechanism of composition change is likely to be fairly unimportant as long as you are using decent quality vessels and quality ingredients. The exceptions are certain extracts such as tobacco Absolutes. When making tobacco Absolute stocks from TA and PG or PG/EM, a ring of resin or oily material is typically deposited on the container. You can account for this loss in several ways, I personally allow TA dilutions to stand a few days and then carefully decant the liquid into a new vessel. The resulting clear or nearly clear stock is then stable for a long time.

1b) Loss of components by volatilization. This is a very important mechanism of flavor change. Ethanol is a common ingredient of flavors, and is lost be evaporation over time. Certain top-notes, commonly esters or volatile aldehydes or carbon ring compounds such as terpenes can be fairly volatile, although less so than ethanol. These are lost over time by evaporation as well.

2) Degradation or reaction of components. These phenomenon result in loss of an original component, and commonly the introduction of new components which may or may not also have flavoring characteristics. Reactions can occur between flavoring components. Oxidation can also be important - PG and VG both adsorb considerable amounts of oxygen from air as well as providing a base medium that supports formation of reactive peroxygen compounds.

Oxidation (and probably cross reaction as well) is particularly important when nicotine is added to a flavor liquid. Nicotine base in dilute form is fairly unstable. Darkening of liquids can often be attributed to oxidation of nicotine and other components. Many liquid formulations may be relatively stable in the absence of nicotine. Addition of nicotine in a short time can introduce both oxidation products of the nicotine itself, and from my observations changes in the initial flavoring composition as well.

3) Changes in ionic state i.e. pH effects can have considerable impact on taste. Organic compounds are one of three types:

Acids - certain phenolics and carboxylic acids.
Neutral - ketones, aldehydes, alcohols, cyclic and acyclic carbon compounds.
Bases - amines.

It is already well known that pH itself can have a major impact on the taste of a liquid. Taste can change as salts are formed between acids and bases, and also as ionic state itself changes. An acid which is in a basic environment may be anionic (negative), while in acidic medium it may be protonated and effectively electrically neutral. pH can affect both the flavor and odor imparted by a component as well as affecting it's volatility when vaporizing. Over time the pH of a liquid can also change, usually the result of reactions. Reactions can remove the amine components in a liquid, depending upon the mechanism of xidation this can result in lower pH. Oxidation may also give rise to new acids. Not always, but in more cases than not pH will usually fall not rise over time.

Although we may not have means available to actually determine how all these changes in chemical composition affects taste of a liquid, these are still the major phenomenon which are occurring during aging of a solution.

How does this help you in formulation? Well there is no magic bullet or playbook for an empirical and subjective process. However, rejecting concepts such as the idea that flavorants in PG require any substantial time "to move into" VG right away raises the question is aging even required at all? Some formulations improve upon aging, but many do not, It is certainly not a given that lengthy aging is a requirement or even an improvement.

Also eliminating these fundamentally flawed concepts allows you to easily understand the nature of quick aging processes: all with the exception of seeding involve adding energy, usually heat, but ultrasound is not radically different. Adding thermal energy increases rates of reaction in almost all cases, as well as accelerating the removal of volatile components. The results are not always the same as slow room temperature aging because increasing the temperature may give rise to different reaction pathways which may or may not result in improvement in taste.

Seeding processes are fundamentally different because people generally add more than just a little of the old liquid, so in effect they are adding flavor. I noticed that there was some validity to the concept of seeding in the course of making up liquids I liked using the same unwashed bottle I had made a previous batch in. So I was adding considerable residual flavor. There is also the possibility that seeding is in fact resulting in pH modification.

There is some merit in at least some aging. Many flavorants contain ethanol and other solvents and components that can result in a harsh and/or chemical initial taste. Beyond a little preliminary removal of some low boiling point materials I find that in general prolonged aging does not really improve taste - either a formulation does or just does not taste good and/or eventually with time most formulations in a general category such as "tobacco" end up tasting roughly similar.

What you can do right now to improve your formulations? With just an understanding of the basic processes you can acquire a better empirical understanding of how aging affects your formulations and what you are really trying to achieve. Here is a simple way to begin using this knowledge. Based on the valid phenomena which are occurring, a clearo provides a very useful empirical tool. It is a rapid way to evaluate the effects of both heat and oxidation on your liquids.

Make up a batch of one of your simpler formulations that you feel requires some aging but not a lengthy one. Leave the nicotine out if you use it. Heat in a hot water bath for maybe 15 minutes occasional cracking the top. This will allow some volatiles like ethanol to escape. Allow the liquid to cool and add nicotine if you use it.

Now put about 1 mL in a clearo - I like the metal ones with a glass window, but whatever you prefer. Now give it a good pull. Continue the experiment and make notes of how the flavor profile changes, and evaluate the results in the context of the phenomena that have been described.

What I find with my typical tobacco formulations is usually this pattern:

The initial taste is often a little harsh and/or chemical. These are typically low molecular weight esters, alcohols, ketones etc.

After about maybe 0.1 or so mL, most of these volatiles have been pulled out and a better, rich and complex taste emerges. This is what I am looking for, and something that would be lost if I habitually aged liquids extensively. This often lasts for roughly 0.6-0.7 mL.

The last 0.2 residual liquid usually has diminished taste, and a significant color change is now observed, indicating reactions/oxidation. pH change at this point is likely a factor as well.

Your formulations may vary but this process gives you an idea of what if any pre-aging is likely to be optimal for your tastes. Maybe you need extensive aging, but maybe you just want to lose some of the initial highly volatile components. Maybe you are observing the best taste at the end. This could indicate more extensive aging is required, but you could also experiment and see if addition of a little malic or citric acid gives you a similar taste without prolonged aging.

Try it and see if you find it useful! Also try to describe the tastes you experience. It is quite difficult, but attempting to do so should impress upon you that use of terminology is in fact very important!
 
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dannyv45

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I think what you say is reasonable but very technical and I'm not sure it will really be comprehended by the less technical thinkers among us. I do disagree on using a clearo to test your theory, especially the taste of the last ml or so. You did not compensate for degradation of the coil and wick as the tank empties which will also influence taste. Heat required for vaporization far exceeds that which is used in the average aging process of speed or natural steeping. What you are doing is vaporizing and not steeping in a clearo. The heat produced from vaporization which radiantly heats or warms the liquid within the clearo tank itself is negligible and inconsistent with the steeping process because you are constantly heating and cooling back down. (Sorry about the steeping reference I know it's a debatable term but one I've grown accustom to using). All in all your comment was well written.
 
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Mr.Mann

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Robert, now that last post of yours was a good read (though I don't think the concept of aging is a fundamentally flawed concept -- at least experience tells me otherwise). In the end though, there is little information most of the time that we have on these flavors, so to the average DIYer (or even the most hardcore) the majority of the info will be based on experience, and that is most often what is shared here. We are not flavor chemists, at least I know I am not -- but that sure as hell does not preclude us from making liquids that are just right for our palates, no matter what we have to do to get them to that point.
 

Hoosier

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No magic bullet, that's a fact that, thankfully, seems more accepted than it once was.

I'm still trying to figure out how seed steeping does what it does. (I've used the term for too long to change.). I only have one recipe that needs a long steep, just one out of....dang, I don't think Hoosiers can count that high...recipes. I leave a couple ml's in the bottle and mix a new batch in that bottle and it's good to go the next day. Not bad right away either. Without that seed, vaping it fresh is a nasty experience. It works, but it makes no sense as to why it would.

Trial and observation is the only way for me. It has led me to try some stupid stuff with the expected stupid results, but every once in awhile something great happens that leads me to try something stupid in the future.
 

RobertNC

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It is not the same, and I would say there is only a rough correlation between what you observe in a clearo and the results you will obtain in (example heat based) ageing.

However it can be a very useful tool for assessing the properties of your flavorants and at least formulating some overall philosophy towards where to start in an ageing protocol. For example, IMO if you have gone through ~80% of 1 mL in a clearo, and the formulation still tastes abysmal, it probably always will (although I still put them on the shelf and revisit them 2 weeks and possibly 2 weeks later).

Consider a different scenario however, one in which I feel this technique can be very useful. Suppose you have a formulation, and the initial taste is very sharp and chemical in nature. Now, these systems may not appear to produce much heat, but in fact at a local level they do produce quite a bit. 200C+ at atmospheric pressure is, in terms of organic chemistry, very hot.

When you vape this mixture, it is hot enough that even the glycol is volatilized enough that by the time it passes through a relatively cool metal or glass tube, it is still in aerosol form. These sharp components are typically alcohols like PGA and lower MW lower boiling point ester such as ethyl acetate and other low carbon chain esters. These are rapidly vaporized and you are also pulling them out as you heat. Some may make it through the entire system even, but if they do not the aerosol will no doubt be highly enriched by these components.

The next piece of the puzzle is the mass transfer effects after you have pulled out a vapor sample. The wick will be depleted to some degree. It will also contain residual higher boiling point material that has had a significant amount of lower boiling point materials removed. Your surrounding liquid may still be roughly the same as when you charged the clearo, but it does not stay that way for long. VG is certainly viscous, but relatively speaking it is still on the low side, nothing even close to polyacrylamide solutions or even heavier grade motor oil for that matter. Dissolved components left in the wick may briefly have a different, higher boiling point overall profile but this does not remain static very long. As liquid adsorbs into the wick from the clearo some of the residual material left will actually migrate out The entire system will rapidly reach a new equilibrium throughout, with the overall composition being lower in low boiling point components.

Hit it again, again you pull out a vapor sample that is enriched in the lower boiling point materials, a new equilibrium will be reached, and so on, The net effect is that while you are not bulk heating the entire volume of liquid at once, essentially all of it is exposed to the heat at the coil over a relatively short period of time. You would accomplish the same thing by making up a batch of say 5 mL liquid, quick heating 0.25 mL to a relatively high temperature, mixing that back into the original liquid, shaking vigorously, and repeating a number of times.

I don't recommend that. What I am suggesting is observing how your flavor changes over time in the clearo. If you find the initial taste is harsh and chemical in nature, you may be able to reduce this by taking your mixed liquid and quick ageing with the cap off for a relatively short time in a relatively hot water, or even hot PG bath.

Of more interest to me is that I have noted that in many blends I need to hit it a few good times to "pull off the esters and alcohols" and then once most of the initial harsh or chemical taste is gone, I often find the remaining liquid has a very rich and complex character. This tends to not persist throughout the life of the liquid and is probable due to less volatile but still relatively quickly lost top-notes that I like. If I simply tasted chemical or harshness initially and decided the liquid needed a prolonged or aggressive ageing, I would probably miss these entirely.

I don't push my coils and wicks hard, and I certainly don't vape a clearo dry. In fact I have found that the Kanger systems (not the ones with the strings!) are quite robust and have successfully washed and reused them using water and PGA.

The general idea is to try to empirically assess how the flavor profile changes. Initial harshness or chemical taste is very common. If that is quickly followed by a very tasty liquid, then I know I have something that I do not want to age for any prolonged period. Anything that does not improve over the life of 1 mL may or may not improve with conventional ageing. I always keep them and try but to me this is usually and immediate signal to reformulate, not wait weeks.

To answer another poster question, I find this to be a useful experiment over an extended session. You may need to take some breaks, if the initial taste is harsh/chemical you may eat dinner or a piece of bread and a little milk etc. I usually start one of these up in the early evening and by bedtime I am really evaluating the flavor. Then again the next morning, and after that I will probably revisit it in a couple of days, or else vape like a fiend and mix more.

But all the elements of ageing or "steeping" as others refer to it are in fact there. Heat, air flow, loss of volatiles, reaction/oxidation. It is on a more accelerated schedule in some respects because of the heat of the coil, somewhat different in that you are not bulk heating at a lower temperature, but qualitatively a similar process. Highly volatiles will be lost first, and that consumes much of the initial thermal energy. After that reaction/oxidation/pH effects are likely to be the primary effect.

The idea is not so much to mimic "steeping" or ageing, but rather to get a more detailed picture of how your flavorants taste and behave over time, and also in a very realistic setting - you are sampling taste as you vape after all. It is not a new process or concept, I am just mostly eliminating the ageing concept and going almost directly to a more comprehensive flavor profile evaluation.

I don't personally believe ageing (beyond maybe a day which is usually a good idea for most mixes) is required, an improvement, or even desirable. I use this flavor profiling to try to make formulation or component adjustments. Tobaccos, for example, classic case where everyone insist they require lengthy "steep" (ageing). I see this is largely a result of use of TFA Tobaccos. Not to knock them, I do a lot of business with TFA, their RY4s are mehh OK, I use their current ordinary Tobacco as an adjunct regularly but any given version tends to not stay on the market long because no one else seems to buy them, but for the most part IMO their tobacco flavors suck. They do improve a little with time - mostly because they lose flavor which was not good to begin with. But rather than get caught up in elaborate or lengthy aging processes I would rather just reformulate using something else. Inawera has some good products, FA is hit or miss, but have some I can work with.

My perspective is that extensive evaluation and formulation is key, I am not interested in spending a lot of time on "steeping" or "steeping methodologies" one because I really do not buy into it much, and two because I want to get flavors and understand as much about them as I can because I believe at some point they will mostly go away. The "spice" components as manufacturers refer to them are the key, I figure one day I will be relying on whole leaf extracts and by that time I need to have some good "spice" or "flavor essences" that are non-tobacco based pretty well nailed down.

So my emphasis is on formulation and assessment, I have largely abandoned the concept of ageing as a significantly valuable tool ...
 
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