Has anybody emailed or called WL and voiced these concerns? I'm sure he would appreciate any feedback. If there is a problem, he needs to know about it before he can fix it. I doubt that he monitors this thread.
The Wizard Labs Thread.
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I have mixed many different vendor flavors and each one has its own sweet spot, as for the TFA Raspberry it taste fine to me but dose require steeping to get the best flavor out. you can also order TFA from TFA if WL is out of stock even tho I like WL for small amounts of flavor, I just ordered about 250 dollars of TFA from TFA and around 350.00 from FW, some of it came in today.
if your new to DIY it is best to stay with single flavors for a while until you get the hang of it, then try 2 flavors together. For new peeps it is not a good idea to try the 3-7 flavor mixes as you will probable end up tossing them out and wasting your goods. a lot of the single flavors are great alone and it will give you a lot of confidence when you can make the single flavors pop for you. hope this helps.
if your new to DIY it is best to stay with single flavors for a while until you get the hang of it, then try 2 flavors together. For new peeps it is not a good idea to try the 3-7 flavor mixes as you will probable end up tossing them out and wasting your goods. a lot of the single flavors are great alone and it will give you a lot of confidence when you can make the single flavors pop for you. hope this helps.
Certain flavorings taste nothing like their names. Honey doesn't taste anything like honey, the raspberry tastes like nail polish remover, and there are a few others that taste like crap. Its not even subjective. Its fact. No way and hell I'm the only one who thinks this. I highly doubt that TFA made these flavorings and thought they were good. I think its a problem with wizardlabs storage of them. I think that some go bad and oxidize/ferment.
Most of the flavors are safe, yes. With the exception of vanilla custard(iirc) because it contains diacetyl(?) or some other chem that can be damaging when inhaled.
TFA lemon is decent. NY style cheesecake is DELICIOUS.I would try making the recipe at 2-6% cheesecake and 4-7% lemon cheesecake, depending on what ratio and nic strength you like your juices at.
I have no problem with TFA raspberry from WL. I use it often in one of my mixes. There's a few flavors I didn't like (root beer, I'm looking at you) but the fruit flavors have been fine.
I have TFA Raspberry (sweet) from WL and it smells like raspberry. It tastes fine in the raspberry cheesecake liquid I made. I don't do straight fruit flavors, so can't tell anyone how it tastes on its own.
My experience has been that any flavor varies in taste according to the percentage used and also to the other ingredients in a recipe.
My experience has been that any flavor varies in taste according to the percentage used and also to the other ingredients in a recipe.
Perhaps we received flavors from a separate batch...
I messaged WL a while back(like 6+ months ago) about the coffee flavoring tasting off but didn't get a reply back...Perhaps it was overlooked.
I messaged WL a while back(like 6+ months ago) about the coffee flavoring tasting off but didn't get a reply back...Perhaps it was overlooked.
I use it in my blue raz and after a week it's ready to vape.
Some of the flavors do taste like crap I'd say Strawberry Banana for example is terrible out of the gate as is Mocha. But given the right amount of time they do come to life and take shape. My method is attaching 50ml bottles to a drill which greatly speeds up the mixing process. It especially helps when testing new mixes as it guarantees a good mix. But nothing replaces the aging process which helps the molecules to fully bond together.
There is no doubt a flavor could be slightly off from the supplier itself. However WL fills so many orders constantly so there is no chance that anything is going bad. Not to mention many flavors especially those with alcohol would simply evaporate as they cannot oxidize the way Nic does. And John really knows his stuff so if there was a potential issue he would surely look into it. I have also seen with my own eyes the containers used to store the flavors and they are leak proof/air tight stainless cylindrical flasks. I wont buy my Nicotine anywhere else PERIOD and i'd only source from TFA direct for bulk flavoring.
I agree, mocha is crap.
EDIT- sorry, I misread what you said. You're implying high turnover rate means he flavors never sit around for long. You don't know that for sure though...
Are you being sarcastic? If he's filling so many orders wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he has a lot of the flavoring stocked up, oxidizing...?
EDIT- sorry, I misread what you said. You're implying high turnover rate means he flavors never sit around for long. You don't know that for sure though...
Ok I received my big order of flavorings today from Wizard Labs, mostly TFA but some LA as well. I got about roughly 40 flavorings, and about 7 more coming in the mail. Not gonna list them all, but I did open and take a whiff of each one. Overall, I am pleased by the way they smell, most of them smell the way I expect them to. A few of them smell a little weird, I assume they need to steep or something.
Butter Rum (LA) - this smells like straight up nail polish remover and was the only one that did. Hope this mellows out... its really pungent and unappetizing as it is right now based off smell.
Black tea (TFA) - This smells like gin and tonic with lemongrass. Very herby and sharp, not what I expect tea to smell like.
Peach (LA concentrate) - smells like peach gummy rings + a little bit of nail polish remover
Light Brand tobacco (SM) - smells like absolutely nothing. The only one that had no smell at all to my nose
And another note was that most of the vanilla/cream type juices have a very faint smell compared to the other bakery/fruit flavors. The only vanilla that had a strong scent was the vanilla bean ice cream. Now that I have just about everything, should I leave the tops off of some of the juices to air out or is there some other way people 'steep' the flavorings?
Butter Rum (LA) - this smells like straight up nail polish remover and was the only one that did. Hope this mellows out... its really pungent and unappetizing as it is right now based off smell.
Black tea (TFA) - This smells like gin and tonic with lemongrass. Very herby and sharp, not what I expect tea to smell like.
Peach (LA concentrate) - smells like peach gummy rings + a little bit of nail polish remover
Light Brand tobacco (SM) - smells like absolutely nothing. The only one that had no smell at all to my nose
And another note was that most of the vanilla/cream type juices have a very faint smell compared to the other bakery/fruit flavors. The only vanilla that had a strong scent was the vanilla bean ice cream. Now that I have just about everything, should I leave the tops off of some of the juices to air out or is there some other way people 'steep' the flavorings?
You don't steep flavorings only premixed juice. Some of these flavorings will taste a lot different then they smell.
Ok I just made a small batch. I made a 9ml mix of 70%VG and 30% PG and 12mg nic, then added about 5 drops of the lemon, cheesecake, cupcake, and vanillin. I wasn't sure how to calculate the flavoring percentages after the fact since I did not use them in the original base mix. I've never worked with 100% VG before and by golly, this stuff is super thick!! Like goo! I'd like to thin it out a bit.. should I try water or use more PG? I also shook up the bottle and immediately tried dripping it. Can't really taste anything. Should I wait a bit or add more flavorings? I know 5% is pretty weak but I added 4 different things.
You can dilute it with distilled water, PG or alcohol but you'll lose some of the flavor and slightly lower the nic level. Have you tried the e-juice calculator? It's free and highly recommended.
Edit: PG might enhance the flavor and alcohol will enhance the throat hit.
Edit: PG might enhance the flavor and alcohol will enhance the throat hit.
I did use the calculator, but not knowing how much flavoring I wanted, I just made the nic base first then added the flavoring after. Probably not the best way to go about it, but even if I did use the calculator, if I wanted to add more flavoring after, how would I record that into the percentages?
I use 100% VG also and I mix up my base first. I dilute the base with 5% distilled water and that thins it enough for me. When I add more flavor I just guess at the % and increase by that much in the calculator. It's trial and error.
I just got a new flavor today and I made 3 5ml batches. 1 at 5%, 1 at 10% and 1 at 15%. Now I'll let them steep for a week. This gives me a ball park % of what I want. If one is right on the money in a week then I'll mix the other 2 together and tweak them so I don't lose my nic and flavoring.
I stopped by WL today picked up a big order of flavors and had a discussion about this with John directly. In his own words the flavoring can vary slightly from one batch to the next and or the recipe can totally change which does happen from time to time. His labels should however always reflect any recipe changes which is out of his or even TPA/TFA's hands. He said the staff filling the bottles are/should be checking every batch to note any major or known changes. I don't know if the same holds true for LA flavors because for the most part I only use TFA and never thought to ask.
Yes they have huge amounts of flavoring and nic on hand but also by his own words the flavors cannot oxidize. The only oxidation that can and will or should ever occur in ejuice is from the nicotine. By no means am I trying to be sarcastic and to the contrary. I don't want someone to be mislead into thinking the wrong thing. But instead of just giving my opinion I decided it would be best to get an answer directly from John who knows far more then me. I would therefore have to assume the recipe you got had in fact changed. So in the future it would probably be best to check the new bottles against the old.
I would like to add to what Crunktanium has said. I've talked to John many times on the phone when I've had a question or didn't understand something. He welcomes interaction with his customers. He will give you very detailed information and won't just brush you off to get you off the phone. So rather than complain and spew accusations and misinformation about WL, pick up the phone and give him a call. You will learn a lot in just one conversation with him.
I'm gonna pick up some distilled water tomorrow I guess. So the flavorings themselves CANNOT be steeped? Only when they are combined with nic juice? My random lemon cheesecake juice (didn't really keep track of how many drops of everything I put in there... oops) tastes OK right now but not quite what I was aiming for. I guess I'll let it sit overnight and see if it improves? It smells good but it doesn't taste as full bodied as I'd like. I suppose I'd like more creaminess?
Never go by smell it will always smell different than it tastes. And how the juice tastes today can be 100% different next week. This is why master mixers get a premium for pre-steeped and well perfected formulas. I did some testing with caps off and caps on too and this will also impact the flavor intensity. I have some that came out good and others that taste like flavored water. But with steeping it's just a term for aging so think of it like aged wine. The longer you age the more time the molecules have to react. There are also mixes that wont age well and will fall flat from steeping.
So my suggestion would be to make some 3ml batches to start. Maybe half a dozen and subject them to varied conditions. Let one sit in a dark cool place for two weeks and one just for a week. Then two more with caps off and do one for a day and another for 3-4 days. Then you can vape the remainders without messing with your test subjects. This way you are going to get a much better understanding of how those specific flavors react. Most people make lots of juice they like at once so they always have a batch or two steeping.
You wont get the perfect juice on your first try it will take time and experimentation. You could also try to search for things other people have made similar to yours. Then compare and tweak until you find what you like. Sometimes adding other things like a few drops of Ethyl Maltol or Menthol can work wonders if used very sparingly. You might not like Menthol but using a drop or two here and there you likely wont even taste it. I find it boosts the flavor intensity of certain flavors but again very little or you will taste it.
I made 2 mixes last night and they both just don't have a lot of flavor. My first mix, I don't remember the percentages, but each thing was probably at least 6% and I used lemon, vanillin, cheesecake, cupcake and a few drops of sour. It smells like yogurt to me and the flavor is barely there. I feel like I used a lot of flavoring though. It's been sitting overnight and is about the same when I tried it this afternoon. My other mix was a 5ml batch of black honey tobacco and ry4 double at 8% each and 6% french vanilla. It doesn't have much taste and has a slight baby powder after taste? I tried a hot water bath... not much difference. Should I keep adding stuff to it or just let it sit for a while?
On the bright side, you should be happy that it's only 'ok'. What if it had turned out to be indescribably delicious and you were never able to re-create it?
Seriously, part of the fun of DIY'ing is the 'tweaking' to your personal taste. But keeping decent notes is very important. And I strongly urge you to do some research on specific flavors to see what percentages other people like best. Your ending percentages might be different but it gives you a starting point.
I've also heard that too much flavoring can (paradoxically) mute the flavor. I don't know about 'muting' but I can confirm that it (more flavoring) doesn't necessarily make it (the flavor) stronger. I make 'pre-mixes' for a couple of flavors (add the various flavorings together in the correct proportions, then add that pre-mix to the nic base). I have accidently dripped a pre-mix (which is 100% flavoring) and it didn't taste strong.
Start simple and work toward more complicated.
Another fun thing to do with flavorings is tweak juices you already have.
6% each of four different flavors sounds like plenty, I suspect you just need to adjust the proportions (specifically less lemon, more cheesecake).
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