There is not just ONE elephant in the room!

[ScottP]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 14558375" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Sure. Let's all be dumb silent consumers of the great vaping industry.

Sure, let's all live in bubbles out of fear of the unknown.

 

[rgerber]

The second elephant in the room is too hard to keep lit....

Reverend Dickie

 

[Alien Traveler]

Sure, let's all live in bubbles out of fear of the unknown.

Nope. Let’s learn. Let’s know. Let’s not live in bubbles of self-assured righteousness.

 

[Bernard Marx]

At least if some large multi-nationals took over the industry we would know we were being screwed for sure.

 

[chopdoc]

The last thing any of us should want is government intrusion into the vaping industry for any reasons at all for if and when they do it will not be for our best interest. No, they will be looking out more for big tobacco interest than ours.

Does anyone really want to see these B & M shops closed down?
Does anyone really want to see us limited to only what big tobacco produces?
Does anyone really want to start paying the same amount you shelled out when you smoked?

I know that there is a large left leaning faction that believes we all need the government to control every aspect our lives but reality is you cant replace common sense with regulations. So far the vaping industry has shown remarkable diligence in policing themselves without any federal oversight. Lets keep it that way and keep the Feds out of the vaping industry.

 

[jpargana]

If it turns out that vaping is just one fifth as harmful as smoking do you see no problem with vaping spreading? Among non-smokers?

Let's not forget thar EVERY smoker was a non-smoker in the first place.

Even among non-smokers, I would rather see vaping speading, than smoking.

Current ANTZ logic is that it is a "tragedy" that a SINGLE non-smoking youth starts vaping.

"Obviously", that "child" could have had a full, satisfying, non-addicted life - if only it wasn't for the "evil" e-cigarette !!

How come it never crosses those people's minds that the "child" could have started SMOKING anyway, in the absence of e-cigarettes ??

I started smoking when I was fifteen - long before "evil" e-cigarette companies were making commercials "targeted" at ME, to "make" me vape, and then "proceed" to smoking...!

No, I do not even have that excuse to start smoking - I guess, stupidity alone cannot be ruled out...

 

[chopdoc]

Let's not forget thar EVERY smoker was a non-smoker in the first place.

Even among non-smokers, I would rather see vaping speading, than smoking.

Current ANTZ logic is that it is a "tragedy" that a SINGLE non-smoking youth starts vaping.

"Obviously", that "child" could have had a full, satisfying, non-addicted life - if only it wasn't for the "evil" e-cigarette !!

How come it never crosses those people's minds that the "child" could have started SMOKING anyway, in the absence of e-cigarettes ??

I started smoking when I was fifteen - long before "evil" e-cigarette companies were making commercials "targeted" at ME, to "make" me vape, and then "proceed" to smoking...!

No, I do not even have that excuse to start smoking - I guess, stupidity alone cannot be ruled out...

ANTZ is an extreme liberal group and like most groups of that nature wants nothing to do with facts nor the truth. Instead they base their attacks on scare tactics and falsehoods with no logic. ANTZ has been confronted countless times with the truth and continues to knowingly misrepresent in order to further their agenda.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Let's not forget thar EVERY smoker was a non-smoker in the first place.

Even among non-smokers, I would rather see vaping speading, than smoking.

Current ANTZ logic is that it is a "tragedy" that a SINGLE non-smoking youth starts vaping.

"Obviously", that "child" could have had a full, satisfying, non-addicted life - if only it wasn't for the "evil" e-cigarette !!

How come it never crosses those people's minds that the "child" could have started SMOKING anyway, in the absence of e-cigarettes ??

I started smoking when I was fifteen - long before "evil" e-cigarette companies were making commercials "targeted" at ME, to "make" me vape, and then "proceed" to smoking...!

No, I do not even have that excuse to start smoking - I guess, stupidity alone cannot be ruled out...

It looks like you are answering not to my post at all.
Let me repeat:
We cannot trust BP funded research.
We cannot trust CASAA funded research.
We are consumers, not manufacturers and resellers; we should be smarter.

 

[WattWick]

We can't child proof the world. The best we can hope for is to equip our children with the tools to cope with whatever life throws at'em.

We can dream and wish the best for our children, but eventually they're just like us: they're people. We all know a thing or two about that.

 

[chopdoc]

It looks like you are answering not to my post at all.
Let me repeat:
We cannot trust BP funded research.
We cannot trust CASAA funded research.
We are consumers, not manufacturers and resellers; we should be smarter.

I will agree that BP will pay to have a study in their favor and to disprove their study takes a costly counter study being performed along the same guidelines. Yet a group like CASAA is held to a higher standard for they cant afford to defend a fraudulent study as well as their reputation is on the line. I would give far more credence to a CASAA study on those reasons alone than I would give to a BP study.

 

[beckdg]

The "elephant" that I see isn't anything coming from China. It's the juice made right here.

I can't buy a cookie without every ingredient listed in order of concentration, an address of the manufacturer, a phone number, nutritional information, a warning if it has peanuts, gluten, or dairy, whether or not it's Kosher.... I think you get my drift.

I bought 3 bottles of liquid over the weekend from very reputable B&M stores. 3 different brands (premium brands) and the lack of information on the bottles is scary. I left a bottle on my desk at work today and caught a Co worker checking it out. It smelled great he said, could he taste it. He thought it was some sort of candy. That wouldn't have ended well had he taken a few dropper fulls down his throat.

I see this changing and changing fast. All it takes is One kid to down a bottle of juice that looks like a bottle of candy.

I enjoy the bottle art and cool flavor names but really, I love vaping more and would hate for this to be fodder for the regulators.

What scares me is the misdirection on the labels with all the information.

Sent from my device.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I will agree that BP will pay to have a study in their favor and to disprove their study takes a costly counter study being performed along the same guidelines. Yet a group like CASAA is held to a higher standard for they cant afford to defend a fraudulent study as well as their reputation is on the line. I would give far more credence to a CASAA study on those reasons alone than I would give to a BP study.

OK. Beliefs cannot be questioned.

 

[jpargana]

It looks like you are answering not to my post at all.
Let me repeat:
We cannot trust BP funded research.
We cannot trust CASAA funded research.
We are consumers, not manufacturers and resellers; we should be smarter.

Well, I was, actually...

"If it turns out that vaping is just one fifth as harmful as smoking do you see no problem with vaping spreading? Among non-smokers?"

There was no "research" mentioned anywhere. Just the fear that vaping might be as 20% dangerous as smoking, AND might spread among non-smokers.

I believe most of those non-smokers who try vaping from the start are those, like us, who would have tried smoking, if vaping wasn't available.

Thinking about my past school years, there were two types of kids: the "cool" ones, who tried cigarettes and alchool, and the "whimpy" ones, who were not interested in any of those things.

What ANTZ's are telling is something like "beer should be banned", bacause a whimpy kid might try it, and later become a heavy vodka drinker. And that would not have happened if it wasn't for that first, evil beer.

It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[jambi]

The three elephants...

1. Sheer stupidity / ignorance is indeed a behemoth. The best we can do is protect ourselves from getting stepped on (or stepping into what stupidity has left behind). It appears that, by preaching safety via forums like this, we're already doing that. Manufacturers also need to make an effort, such as voluntarily including clear, concise warnings/advisories with their products. Little guy manufacturers, are you listening? Now when the big mama gov-elephant comes calling, we'll be honestly able to say that we're already doing everything possible to prevent catastrophes.

2. Ah, the bright green elephant of jealousy/resentment. Be us wise to remember that this technology originated in China while the US was content to complacently ride the tobacco taxation cash-wave. Whatever you're vaping with right now, some element of it (if not the entire thing) was invented by Chinese ingenuity and created by Chinese hands. There are those who, powerless to actually prove 'complete lack of quality control in China', will resort to the '14 year old child-slave laborers' argument. Your own socio-cultural ideals aren't applicable in China. Your dollar, however, is...so either don't buy Chinese (thus forcing all those innocent factory workers into lives of pove-prosta-degra-inhudignity), or just be appreciative that they've provided you with the toaster and knife to butter your ever-loving bread. A cheap, never-ending supply of junk is what you wanted, right? China listened, and they deliver.

3. The sunglasses-sporting elephant of hipness. It's true. No matter how you atomize it, vaping is cool. IMAO, way too cool to even need to resort to the kind of advertising revealed in a Google 'ecig advertising' search. "Take back your freedom!" Come on! What would be uber-cool would be a self-imposed complete blackout on advertising (not to be confused with marketing), but that'll never happen as long as the 'Blu-clan' is in the mass market game. I'd say, (since the cake is a lie anyway) let the ANTZ have their cake by judiciously agreeing that TV, magazine, etc. advertising is a bad idea for this industry. Probably ultimately advantageous for lifer-vapers to put some categorical distance between ourselves and the Blu/Freedom Smokes interests, or any interests for that matter that are focused on simply mutating 'big tobacco' into 'big ecig'.

Regardless, vaping IS cool. Heck, after 5 months of exclusive vaping, I feel cooler in mind and body than I've felt in 15 years. To *insert expletive* with anyone who tells me it's wrong to feel this way.

 

[Israfil]

I bought 3 bottles of liquid over the weekend from very reputable B&M stores. 3 different brands (premium brands) and the lack of information on the bottles is scary. I left a bottle on my desk at work today and caught a Co worker checking it out. It smelled great he said, could he taste it. He thought it was some sort of candy. That wouldn't have ended well had he taken a few dropper fulls down his throat.

Did they have the warning labels on them? Did they have any identification of what they were? If so...good lord O_O some people try really hard to not live.

 

[Nermal]

I quit bothering to argue with idiots a long time ago.

The reality is that most non smokers think vaping is stupid, and the more you argue with them, the stupider you will look.
So save your arguments for where they serve a purpose. I'm sure there will be some sort of regulation being discussed in your community soon.

Well, Yeah! Anybody can vape. It takes a real man to face up to lung cancer.

 

[EBates]

Hi,

As you know from my thread about the smoking cessation workshop that I attended, I recently went to a seminar that was stridently anti-vape. There was absolutely no effort made to give a fair and impartial presentation of the information and research that is available on the subject. I’m also trying very hard to be fair and impartial myself, even though most people seem to be strongly anti-vape or pro-vape and seem to be happy to accept any information that their preferred side of the debate seems to offer. I’ve also been following the discussion about the “elephant in the room” which is about the question of vaping and children.

Having recently attended this seminar, I’m now familiar with many of the anti-vapers’ arguments. I think that there are other concerns that they have raised that also deserve logical, reasoned consideration by those of us who do vape. Let me present a few of these concerns:

1. There is the safety issue of the devices themselves. Many of us have probably met the guy who is a complete novice to vaping who nevertheless immediately goes out and gets himself a mech mod and a RDA and probably has no idea how to build a proper coil or even the foggiest idea of how to use an ohm meter. So, he immediately builds himself a bad coil that has a short in it and installs it in his new mech mod with an el-cheapo Chinese battery. He has, essentially, built himself a pipe bomb and doesn’t even know it. You can already Google “e-cig explosion” and see examples of these things blowing up. How fast do you think it will take the general public to have an over-the-top negative reaction when they hear the word “pipe bomb” and realize that these things – in the wrong hands – can literally explode in your face?
2. There is the issue of the absolute lack of quality control in China, which covers everything from the e-juices that are made there to the physical devices that we buy to vape on. There have been e-juices tested that include dangerous chemicals like cyanide and ammonia. How many of these bad e-juices does it take before the whole vaping movement gets slurred by the findings?
3. Much was made in the seminar about the fact that e-cigs could potentially make smoking seem “cool” again, after years of hard work trying to make them less appealing. Some of the ads for e-cigs look very much like the cigarette ads of the 60’s and 70’s, before these kinds of ads started to be banned. Do we really want companies to be allowed to make vaping look “sexy” when it has still yet to be determined that they are truly “safe” in the long term?

Just curious what your thoughts are about these issues.

1) There is No Cure For Stupid. In the animal world survival of the fittest has always applied.

2) Not isolated to China or any other region or race. Buyer Beware, Buy Cheap, You Get Cheap.

3) Anyone notice who is sponsoring these commercials? The FDA chosen one(s) to supply your vapes in the future.

 

[DrMA]

Whatever the elephants in the room may be, uncritically regurgitating ANTZ propaganda and other slurry disguised as "studies" isn't likely to expose them. What we need is a neutral discussion of the evidence, most importantly pruning away conflicted and junk studies gushing from the tobacco control industry and other interests vested in the continuation of the tobacco gravy train.

Then, we need to find realistic problems with vaping and come up with actionable and equitable solutions. Mindless bleating of thoroughly debunked ANTZ lies about "cyanide", "antifreeze", and "children" is not helping improve the safety of vaping. Real problems relate to potential unsafe use of batteries (that's on the user), potentially harmful flavors in juice (see research by Dr. F), materials safety for atomizer construction (wicking, wire, casing, etc.), and investigating vaporization temperature during realistic vaping conditions.

Finally, and in spite of alarmist and unsubstantiated propaganda from conflicted special interest groups, vapor product advertising is not about "appeal to kids" or "making it look cool". Rather, it's informing smokers about an attractive alternative that's 100-1000 times safer than smoking. The ads are necessary to distinguish the highly effective and appealing vaping alternative from the disgusting and ineffective NRT products (which, by the way, are allowed to be aggressively promoted by BP everywhere, including during prime-time on cable networks). Therefore, advertising for vaping should be encouraged and disseminated widely, including via public service announcements.

 

[ScottP]

1) There is No Cure For Stupid. In the animal world survival of the fittest has always applied.

This is part of the problem humanity faces today. We have stopped natural selection in our species, the chronically stupid and lazy have been allowed to flourish with our system of protecting these people from themselves. There IS a cure for stupid...leave them to their own fate and stop protecting them from themselves. the problem will work itself out. They will either learn from their mistakes or they will win a Darwin award.

 

[sub4me]

What about the pink elephant??