Titanium wires

[Aal_]

I think that oxidizing a coil (by torch, or dry burning) creates an external coating - oxide, in fact - which is amorphous, thus separates us from (and keeps inside) the metal particles underneath it..

So far, I've always thought of that as a *good thing* for vaping. We vape not on a metal but on an amorphous oxide layer above it.

Then we can argue that not all oxides are created the same , and probably Ti oxide is better than Nichrome or Kanthal oxide, but the underlying principle should stay the same IMO.

I'm looking for the post where u read something like that. Give me some time. I don't think we vape kanthal oxide but something else.

 

[xpen]

If only I could remember where I've read that, here on ECF.. It was a very detailed discussion, with some scientific facts to go with it.. Couple years ago, I think.

 

[Paul.K]

Is there a chance of TiO2 forming on the coils at all? I'm not a chemist so I have no idea but the debacle with Cutwood Unicorn Milk has me worried.

 

[xpen]

Titanium dioxide is just the normal oxidation of Titanium, according to Wikipedia. Used for sunscreens and food coloring, among other things, it shouldn't be that bad..

 

[Paul.K]

There was a lot of discussion with TiO2 at the time. It is well known that we can ingest a lot of it and is totally safe. Vaping it is a whole different story. Even small amounts is known to be carcinogen.

 

[xpen]

Uhm, we need a real chemist, here.. And possibly a doctor as well. Sorry I'm not qualified as either, I'm a humble engineer.

 

[soulseek]

There was a lot of discussion with TiO2 at the time. It is well known that we can ingest a lot of it and is totally safe. Vaping it is a whole different story. Even small amounts is known to be carcinogen.

Similar to how you can ingest large amounts of cinnamon but vaping it not so much...

 

[imeothanasis]

all oxides are bad xpen. The layer that is produced keeps the metal inside as you said. But we need the metal not its oxide. We want the pure metal and its properties, not the oxide they produce when they get burned.

By the way, my wife is chemist and her sister is a doctor but neither of them know anything about those things. And I dont think that anyone on this field knows something exept from people that work on this field and make the experiments with animals. So what we have to do is to read carefully the articles on internet.
I am telling you again to read articles about metal oxides. Tjhey are very harmful for human body. The most of the times the pure metal is harmful and its oxide too. The metal that is bio compatible is titanium and it has the properties we need for vaping. Its the only solution and fortunately the best one

Dont burn metals guys, no one in this world uses burned metals for any reason, especially when you put its oxide direct to his lungs

I think that oxidizing a coil (by torch, or dry burning) creates an external coating - oxide, in fact - which is amorphous, thus separates us from (and keeps inside) the metal particles underneath it..

So far, I've always thought of that as a *good thing* for vaping. We vape not on a metal but on an amorphous oxide layer above it.

Then we can argue that not all oxides are created the same , and probably Ti oxide is better than Nichrome or Kanthal oxide, but the underlying principle should stay the same IMO.

 

[oplholik]

ecf has sort of a resident chemist, but darned if I remember his screen name. He could be of help here, maybe I'll recall his name eventually.

 

[Aal_]

I'm pasting my buddy Bill's quote on the subject.

What I have found with my builds is that the greater the tension that I impart, the tighter the coil, and the greater the coil memory. With kanthal, and using a coiling jig, I can get the coil tight enough to resist uncoiling and maintaining its shape rather well without annealing, or torching. I insert the coil and then begin prepping the circuit. Here's a coil made without torching or annealing:

View attachment 306203

Now, the heat is critical to preparing the coil for use. Kanthal has some superb properties which surprisingly include both thermal conductivity and electrical resistance. My friend, State O'Flux, has an excellent blog (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/state-o-flux/5429-micro-coils-why-they-work.html) about why kanthal needs to be heated/pulsed in preparation for vaping:

"It is not voodoo... it's the way the wire is designed - and this "feature" of Kanthal has been well known since before you were born, and just one of the qualities that make it so common and useful.

When heated, Kanthal wire (iron-chromium-aluminium) builds up an aluminum oxide insulative coating on it's outside surface that protects the individual coils from shorting, one to another. This is called alumina (Al2O3).

This is most clearly noticed when you test fire a well compressed coil... the coil initially shorts and heats unevenly. The more you fire it however, the more evenly it heats - from the center out. This is the alumina layer building up and insulating the coils surface.

That is it. No magic... unless a self-generating, protective oxide layer is considered magic. Maybe it is magic - Kanthal wire is both thermally conductive and electrically resistive. Pretty convienent for us, and several billion other handy applications for heating coils.

Consider as well... for a given length and thickness of wire, the resistance does not change whether it's a 7 wrap conventional coil or a 7 wrap compressed coil.
Again, resistance for a given length does not change any appreciable amount - what does change is the amount of heat the "compressed coil" is capable of generating. Reduced to a short, concentrated segment or element, the heat generated for a given resistance/area can be greater than the sum of parts.

Why you ask? A simplest answer.
As stated, you have concentrated the heat generated by the individual coils into that smaller, more cohesive heat generating "element".
So, if you're still on the fence, consider this analogy. Ten matches, lit and separated by 1 inch per match, generate the heat of... 1 match or individual heat source per inch.
Now, ten lit matches, all within one square inch... 10 times the heat concentration / compressed down to one square inch.

Last, although "micro" is used to define a small diameter (1.5mm or 1/16" - or less), compressed coil heating element, you can compress a larger diameter vaporizer coil and have the same result of greater heat concentration for a given dimension of resistance/area occupied."

What seems to often get confused is the need for heat to help the coil with the need for heat to prepare the insulated cover of alumina oxide when firing the coil. They are two different issues. Heating the wire before or after wrapping can and does remove the springiness, but so does tension, which also imparts strong coil memory and superb tightness, compression and adhesion. This is what Mac has been talking about for a while. I can't get that kind of tension in the coil myself by hand, so I've resorted to the use of jigs, and I'm continuing to refine them. All I know is that they work great in creating the coil, pulsing my battery after coil installation works great in preparing the coil for vaping. Together, the "magic" of the kanthal micro coil/COIL is focused concentrated heat right where we need it for our best vaping. My two cents. YMMV. Good luck!

 

[imeothanasis]

be safe guys, thats what we all want. No reason to search if you dont want to search. Just think simple. We need healthy materials, thats why we always looking for these materials. We use glass for water as I said before. We use SS for water, we use titanium for water. We use special plastics for water.

We dont use burned or oxidised SS, burned or oxidised titanium, melted plastics, etc. And we dont use nickel bottles or chromium bottles or kanthal bottles. Its that simple

 

[imeothanasis]

aluminium oxide (alumina) is a hard material but it brakes easily even in low temperatures aal. If you want to know what alumina can do to your body if you inhale it, just "google" this: inhaling aluminium oxide

There is no safe metal oxide. Please dont burn your metals and use only bio compatible ones that is titanium. Its also the only one with the properties we need for resistance

I'm pasting my buddy Bill's quote on the subject.

 

[Borescoped]

Here's some google-fu for you folks (with links, to back up what I'm putting here):

Kanthal (Wikipedia): For heating, resistance wire must be stable in air when hot. Kanthal FeCrAl alloy forms a protective layer of aluminum oxide (alumina).[1] Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity; special techniques may be required to make good electrical connections.

Ok, so Kanthal produces an aluminum oxide... here's an MSDS for you on it:

Aluminum Oxide (ESPI Metals - espimetals.com): Keep in mind, the word "may" is not the same as "shall" or "will".

Acute Effects:
Inhalation: Inhalation of finely divided dust may cause coughing, mucous production and shortness of breath.
Ingestion: None recorded.
Skin: May cause irritation.
Eye: Dust may cause eye irritation.

Chronic Effects:
Inhalation: Inhalation of finely divided dust may cause lung damage affecting breathing capacity.
Ingestion: None recorded.
Skin: None recorded.
Eye: None recorded.

Ok, so there's Kanthal wire's oxide, aluminum oxide for ya, quickly, with references I've used... Also, please note that those references on the MSDS state "dust".
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Let's look at Titanium now!

Titanium (Wikipedia): Like aluminium and magnesium metal surfaces, titanium metal and its alloys oxidize immediately upon exposure to air.|||||Oxides, sulfides, and alkoxides: The most important oxide is TiO2.

So, now, let's look at the MSDS's for Titanium Oxide (TiO) and Titanium (TiO2):

Titanium Oxide (TiO) (ESPI Metals - espimetals.com): Once again, please keep in mind, the word "may" is not the same as "shall" or "will".

Acute Effects:
Inhalation: Dust may cause irritation to the upper respiratory tract and mucous membranes.
Ingestion: No acute health effects recorded.
Skin: Prolonged or repeated contact may cause irritation.
Eye: Prolonged or repeated contact may cause irritation.

Chronic Effects:
Inhalation: May cause slight lesions in the lungs, lung fibrosis, bronchitis and emphysema. No other chronic health effects recorded.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Titanium Oxide (TiO2) (ESPI Metals - espimetals.com): Once again, please keep in mind, the word "may" is not the same as "shall" or "will".

Acute Effects:
Inhalation: High concentrations of dust may cause mild, temporary irritation to the upper respiratory tract and mucous membranes.
Ingestion: No acute health effects recorded.
Skin: May cause mild irritation.
Eye: May cause 'foreign body' irritation.

Chronic Effects:
Inhalation: Long-term exposure to high concentrations may cause increased mucous flow in the nose and respiratory system, decreased lung function, mild fibrosis, and thickening of the lining of the lung cavity.
Ingestion: No chronic health effects recorded.
Skin: No chronic health effects recorded.
Eye: No chronic health effects recorded.

Medical Conditions Possibly Aggravated by Overexposure: Pre-existing respiratory disorders.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok then! That was a lot to hyperlink/cut/paste ect. So I went ahead and added all the info that folks were asking for. Now, when the Ti wire comes out, will I be afraid to use it? Heck no! I'll gladly try it out and see if it's better. <----- anyonee can quote me on that statement by the way!

Having said that, after looking at what I just posted here (with links to MSDS's), I can't see how Kanthal is substantially (even remotely) worse than the Titanium. If there is something out there that shows that the Kanthal is worse for us, would anyone please educate us (me) by showing us the document(s)? As far as I'm concerned, no matter if the metal I'm using for my coils is Kanthal or Titanium, it's still WAY better for me than cigarettes..

 

[Aal_]

I will get Ti wire because it seems better in terms of performance. With regards to health I'm sorry but I need the proper documentation telling me kanthal is more hazardous than Ti. that's my final opinion regarding safety. I will keep on discussing performance though and I feel Ti might be better.

 

[Borescoped]

I will get Ti wire because it seems better in terms of performance. With regards to health I'm sorry but I need the proper documentation telling me kanthal is more hazardous than Ti. that's my final opinion regarding safety. I will keep on discussing performance though and I feel Ti might be better.

Yup, I actually believe the Ti wire might perform better (I'm waiting for the adventurous ones to try it out first ), but I agree that there isn't a problem with kanthal... In my opinion (<----I stress that), based on the MSDS's/documentation I've looked at so far. If it was bad for us, ECF and folks WAY smarter than I am would have had a warning (along with everyone else in the world) about using it.

 

[imeothanasis]

bor and aal, you really missing the point here lol

Bor, you just said exactly what I am saying for 2 years now. DONT BURN THE METALS!

Also, PLEASE USE BIOCOMPATIBLE METALS

I will copy-paste for one more time what I said above:

be safe guys, thats what we all want. No reason to search if you dont want to search. Just think simple. We need healthy materials, thats why we always looking for these materials. We use glass for water as I said before. We use SS for water, we use titanium for water. We use special plastics for water.

We dont use burned or oxidised SS, burned or oxidised titanium, melted plastics, etc. And we dont use nickel bottles or chromium bottles or kanthal bottles. Its that simple

 

[xpen]

I'm not debating that.. I'm just thinking out loud

If Titanium can be used for coils without annealing it (not even for removing production oils/chemicals, if any), great I'm sold.

But even if it needs to be annealed, that would be no different from what we already do for Kanthal or Nichrome.. So, again, no problem

On a side note, I'd really like to see evidence that I've been doing bad service to my health for the past 2+ years, by annealing coils..

all oxides are bad xpen. The layer that is produced keeps the metal inside as you said. But we need the metal not its oxide. We want the pure metal and its properties, not the oxide they produce when they get burned.
(...)
Dont burn metals guys, no one in this world uses burned metals for any reason, especially when you put its oxide direct to his lungs

 

[imeothanasis]

Bor just posted the evidences xpen

 

[Jerms]

Bor just posted the evidences xpen

A truer answer to his question would be that there is no evidence that what he's been doing the last couple years has been detrimental to his health. That evidence Bor posted states that both aluminum oxide and titanium oxide MAY be harmful. It doesn't mention the dose for that harm, just that the potential danger is there at a high enough dose.

Just like saying that nicotine can be a very a dangerous poison, can cause either instant death or slow and painful death, it's the dose that makes the poison. Is the amount of oxide we're exposed to from the coil is actually a minute amount that has no effect? From what I've read, we're actually exposed to and inhale aluminum oxide on a regular basis. Is Kanthal use increasing that level in a noticable way?

 

[Borescoped]

bor and aal, you really missing the point here lol

Bor, you just said exactly what I am saying for 2 years now. DONT BURN THE METALS!

Also, PLEASE USE BIOCOMPATIBLE METALS

I will copy-paste for one more time what I said above:

I don't think I'm missing the point.
The point is that you want everyone to be safer by using Ti wires. I get that.
You are pretty sure that Ti wires are better performing. I get that.
Also that you feel that open flames shouldn't be applied to the wires. Gotcha.

I didn't state anything about burning/not burning the metals. I just want to see you link us something (instead of telling us to google it) or a little better explanation (even just a little something) that says the kanthal is bad for us... Kanthal looks about the same as Titanium when I looked at that MSDS, regarding hazards (sure, worded slightly different, but basically the same).

I'm not debating that.. I'm just thinking out loud

If Titanium can be used for coils without annealing it (not even for removing production oils/chemicals, if any), great I'm sold.

But even if it needs to be annealed, that would be no different from what we already do for Kanthal or Nichrome.. So, again, no problem

On a side note, I'd really like to see evidence that I've been doing bad service to my health for the past 2+ years, by annealing coils..

I'm sold to!

Bor just posted the evidences xpen

What I posted for the Kanthal is basically the same for the Titanium, no substantial hazard differences between the two that I can tell, just worded a little different. Over exposure to either MAY cause problems (but then again, over time at any given measureable volume of particulate matter, possibly not... /shrug, I'm not a doctor/scientist, just some guy at his computer reading MSDS's at home, instead of at work).

My point is, saying that Ti wire is better than Kanthal performance wise, I've got no problems with it. I won't argue that point with you Imeo.

Saying that Kanthal is bad for you and will kill you (perhaps a SLIGHT paraphrase there).... well, as far as I can tell, NO ONE has any studies that I've heard of saying inhaling Kanthal oxide byproducts (aluminum oxides) are going to kill me. Not even Dr. Farsalinos or Dr. Polosa.

If you make the claim that the Kanthal is bad, folks just want to see what documentation you are referencing, that's all. If no one cared, they wouldn't ask you for it. Many folks trust you when you tell them things (just as they trust using all of your products). I think this is one statement that they just want to verify themselves with references provided by you for your claims.

I'm out!