Titanium wires

[Rossum]

and any oxide of any metal is dangerous

Whether something is dangerous is always determined by its concentration or dose, and the nature of the exposure. Titanium dioxide and iron oxides are both ubiquitous in our environment, and we don't consider them particularly dangerous. What matters to vapers is not whether such compounds are present on the surface of our coils but how much of them end up in the vapor that we inhale.

cold, dont be confused buddy. Titanium is used too as a heating material but its expensive and because it doesnt offer anything more than other wires, we dont use it.

But the fact that it self-destructs (by turning into titanium dioxide) at temperatures that Kanthal and nichrome just laugh at has nothing to do with the fact that titanium is rarely used as a heating element?

All existing heating materials were not made to come in touch with things we put to our body like food, water, fumes. These materials were made just to be heated in a sealed environment.

Sure, this is a sealed environment:

And so is this, right?

 

[Rossum]

On a side note, for 29$ +S&H everyone could have 200ft of 30 Gauge Grade 1 Titanium Wire from here: Titanium Laser-Weight Round Wire, 30-Ga., Soft

Yep, that's the stuff I've been doing my testing with.

Now if Imeo truly believes that titanium is safer and actually wants people to use it, he'll leave your link up.

 

[CaptSteve]

Rosum I have tested dry burning different grades of Titanium wire and you are right that some grades do develop Titanium oxide if dry burned (exactly like the link you put up). However the Titanium wire e-smokeguru is selling does not. I have only tested his ready wires (NR-R-NR) and am waiting to get his plain spooled Ti 26g and 24g to test as well.
When I tested his ready wires (NR-R-NR) they did not show any signs of Titanium oxide and I dry burned them for a long while. They remain dark with no signs of white oxide residue on them. However the other type of Titanium wire I tested turned white instantly once dry burned and I mean instantly.

What Imeo is saying is that we should avoid dry burning altogether no matter if we use kanthal, nichrome or titanium.

Once I receive the spooled Ti wire from E-smokeguru I'll run a test on video of his wire vs another Titanium wire and you can all see the difference of the grade he has.
We all want to make sure we vape healthy here rest assured and this from someone who is vaping right now a Kanthal microcoil which was well dry burned and pressed

No, the important part is that rust is an iron compound.

Now is anyone interesting in actually testing this hypothesis that titanium is safer to use than Kanthal or nichrome?

The claim has been made that Kanthal and nichrome are "unhealthy" to use. Why don't we try to find out if that's true instead of engaging in speculation?

The claim has also been made that torching and/or dry-burning are problematical. It's plain to see that this is true of titanium. Let's find out if there is actually a concern when this is done with Kanthal and/or nichrome.


You come across almost like a religious fanatic. "I know the truth but I can't show you any actual evidence".

 

[CaptSteve]

I would love to see a lab test wire residues in e-liquid and vapor but I believe that it's no cheap matter which any one individual can afford

 

[imeothanasis]

Cold, I am sorry if sometimes I am harsh to my opinions. Many times people dont like me because of this. But when things are obvious then I cant continue talking.
Anyway, I have to tell you that your question is the wrong one. Dont search about witch oxide is worse. Just dont produce oxides!

I'm wondering though if the oxides created by titanium burning are so bad for us that they might be why we don't see it used anywhere where burning could possibly occur.

I understand completely the "all oxides are bad" discussions and completely agree. My question is which oxides are worse for me in a scenario like an accidental dry hit. Or what kind of heat ti can withstand before it changes the chemistry of the metal to cause it to emit harmful things into my body.

 

[ZeroOhms]

Yep, that's the stuff I've been doing my testing with.

Now if Imeo truly believes that titanium is safer and actually wants people to use it, rather than just being interested in helping his friends sell wire, he'll leave your link up.

Now we are talking.
Could you share your test result on Ti coils? Performance, flavor, longevity?
If we get some useful info regarding the actual usage of Ti coil, it would be very helpful. For example, if it turns out Ti builds up less gunk than Kanthal, I would switch just for that. (yes, whatever helps with my lazy ....)

@Zanzibar: thanks for the link. I might get a spool at this price just to play with it.

 

[imeothanasis]

Ros, I have to ask you to forgive me if I am harsh to my opinions, just like I asked Cold. But why we search about the obvious???

ok, let me answer your questions one by one:

You said that the dose of a material is dangerous. Things are like that of course! But we dont know the dose, we dont know what does to our body, etc. So why we have to take the risk? Only because we want to burn the wire? And for what purpose? Is this purpose serious or we just like to see red hots wires?

Also, titanium is used as a heating element rare because a) there is no reason to use an expensive material instead of a cheap one for heating elements and b) titanium doesnt have steady resistance while is heated, something that makes heating elements to not work right

As for the sealed environment and the pictures you posted, dont forget that we are talking about wires that touch our liquid that we inhale and not about just a heating element as in your pics.

Whether something is dangerous is always determined by its concentration or dose, and the nature of the exposure. Titanium dioxide and iron oxides are both ubiquitous in our environment, and we don't consider them particularly dangerous. What matters to vapers is not whether such compounds are present on the surface of our coils but how much of them end up in the vapor that we inhale.


But the fact that it self-destructs (by turning into titanium dioxide) at temperatures that Kanthal and nichrome just laugh at has nothing to do with the fact that titanium is rarely used as a heating element?



Sure, this is a sealed environment:

And so is this, right?

 

[imeothanasis]

Yep, that's the stuff I've been doing my testing with.

Now if Imeo truly believes that titanium is safer and actually wants people to use it, he'll leave your link up.

Ros, you have the wrong impression about me. I dont delete serious posts, I only delete posts irrelevant with the subject and posts that insult people. Maybe because you think like that about me, thats why you made that post?

Guys, as I said in my previous posts, please stay on subject and dont leave any kind of impressions. Its a bad tactic on a serious forum like GG is.

Ok, back to titanium wires.

 

[imeothanasis]

I too agree tree! And what I dislike most is the fact that everyone suggests everything and people just follow without doubt! Thats why I am trying here to convince people to do the right thing for themselves

I couldn't agree more brother . I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting we be more lenient, I can see how it could be taken that way. For the record, we should always research and make sure something isn't harmful because like you said, us vapers are inhaling the stuff all day. There's no doubt in my mind that titanium wire is a much safer alternative for a metal coil, especially if not dry burned. I was just comparing the mesh, silica, and cotton wicks from a medical standpoint, because I think it's fun .

But I totally hear what your saying Imeo, we should NOT be relaxed about any old thing we vape on, it can even be dangerous if not looked into. I make a habit of thorough researching the empirical/scientific information of everything new in the vaping world, simply because it's fun to me, and of course I want myself (and ECF) to stay healthy and away from danger. I really appreciate the effort your putting in to eliminate all health risks associated with vaping! I fully support that, and I think titanium wire will certainly be a safer alternative to the coils we have currently. I've been making my own liquid recently for the same reason you vape unflavored , I only use U.S. made 100% Organic and pharmaceutical grade Vegetable Glycerine (Essential Wholesale & Labs), as well as U.S. pharm. grade nicotine, and organic flavorings from organic ingredients I pick out myself! I even like unflavored every now and then myself, VG tastes pretty good by itself (I know I'm weird ).

Much respect brother, for the record I humbly agree; I don't think we should just vape anything, I think we should research the heck out of whatever we're inhaling scientifically, and definitely don't take it lightly. Hope I didn't sound like I was against anyone, I was simply stating some facts about the different wicks.

 

[imeothanasis]

I agree again tree. I too dont like "sides". We are one team here, trying for the best. There are people here that dislike me and make unnecessary noise and also confuse the rest of people with fake opinions just because I am harsh many times with them but thats me and it has nothing to do with our health

Iron isn't the only metal that can rust, the Nickel in Nichrome will also rust, especially when in contact with liquid (acidic e-liquids) and extreme heat. I've used both Kanthal and Nichrome alot, and Nichrome definitely oxides almost immediately (it turns black after basically one dry burn session), however it's designed so that oxide layer protects the inner layers like a skin (and some Nichrome does in fact have iron in the mix). Kanthal on the other hand straight up rusts like any other iron alloy, after about a month of vaping and dry burning, usually it's basically covered.

I'm not saying that either ones dangerous or picking "sides", I'm just pointing out the *real empirical facts on the alloys, that's all. It's really easy to find the substances in Kanthal, Nichrome, or Tianium by just an intelligent google lol. Check out the Material Safety Data Sheets, wikipedia, credible scientific material sites etc. I can tell you now (I've looked into everything, and for all three metals the risk is pretty negligible, BUT of course we all want the safest metal possible, even if it's only a slight advantage, such as the hypoallergenic properties of Titanium, or even it's renound resistance to oxidation.) that basically all there is to research is the effect from the oxides each produce from bonding with oxygen and the heat stress. I certainly haven't found any other catalysts for any of the coils, that actually change the elements affect on the respiratory system.

All three oxides are basically not a great risk (under normal circumstances), the long term chronic inhalation of the oxides are comparable to those that work around sawdust all day. Unless your actually allergic to any of the metals, then it's basically the physical or mechanical irritation resulting from the matter being in your lungs (if any). Literally microscopic abrasions (assuming there aren't any processing chemicals/substances, and all wires are truly and only what they claim to be) are the main negative effects. The effects can range from minor asthma/weezing, to non-cancerous lesions, either way you won't be seriously damaged for life in any vaping situation.

HOWEVER, Titanium (empirically/scientifically) is the best bet for oxidation resistance, as well as being safer when accidentally inhaled. So why wouldn't you use the medically safer wire, even if only a slight improvement? Plus it looks like it kicks ....! That heat up time, and low resistance appear to be amazing. And titanium is used in prosthetic body part replacements, dental applications, and many other medical practices because it's such a robust and neutral metal. I'd imagine if it's used as someones hip in the wet environment of the human body over decades, then it can't be all that bad. (HOWEVER, I know that can be a different situation. It could be a different type of titanium, or covered in something etc.) Just my , I don't want to ruffle any feathers I promise, I frankly don't think this is worthy of super serious heated debate, it just needs to be looked into, and physically tested.

Let's all be ladies and gentleman here, and not be on "team kanthal/titanium". We should just all look into it at the best of our abilities, and see if it's a better wire. Personally, I'm confident I'm rather adept at material science, as I have a passion for it, and Biological Sciences is my current major. And I've already looked into (pure elemental) Titanium wire, and I haven't found an inkling of risk, especially considering how low the stress of vaping will cause it to be under, particularly if not dry burned like many suggest.

Vape on friends!

 

[Rossum]

Rosum I have tested dry burning different grades of Titanium wire and you are right that some grades do develop Titanium oxide if dry burned (exactly like the link you put up). However the Titanium wire e-smokeguru is selling does not.

So the implication is that you are not using Grade 1.

I have only tested his ready wires (NR-R-NR) and am waiting to get his plain spooled Ti 26g and 24g to test as well.

You realize that commercially pure titanium in those gauges will have resistance equivalent to 21 gauge and 19 gauge Kanthal respectively?

I have tried some plain-spooled 24 gauge Grade 1 as well. It takes an absurd amount of it it make any reasonable resistance:

In order for 26 and 24 gauge wires to produce useful coils for our purposes, it seems to me they cannot be pure titanium; it's resistivity is too simply too low. Of course there are alloys of titanium that have higher resistivity than commercially pure titanium. If indeed these wires are an alloy rather than commercially pure titanium, I believe the alloy's other constituents should be disclosed.

When I tested his ready wires (NR-R-NR) they did not show any signs of Titanium oxide and I dry burned them for a long while. They remain dark with no signs of white oxide residue on them. However the other type of Titanium wire I tested turned white instantly once dry burned and I mean instantly.

Well, then I will test E-smokeguru's "better" titanium wires as well -- order placed.

What Imeo is saying is that we should avoid dry burning altogether no matter if we use kanthal, nichrome or titanium.

Yes, his opinion on that is quite clear. However, I think it is also unrealistic to believe that people will follow such advice.

Once I receive the spooled Ti wire from E-smokeguru I'll run a test on video of his wire vs another Titanium wire and you can all see the difference of the grade he has.

And once I receive the (NR-R-NR) wires that E-smokeguru has, I will post some results as well.

We all want to make sure we vape healthy here rest assured and this from someone who is vaping right now a Kanthal microcoil which was well dry burned and pressed

Wait, why are you still vaping Kanthal if titanium is so much better?

 

[soulseek]

While I agree that the solution is to not dry burn your wires, someone is bound to do it just because they can, that doesn't mean they should.

Best of both worlds would be if we could prove that dry burning isn't significantly harmful, until then use it this way at your own risk.

 

[Rossum]

Now we are talking.
Could you share your test result on Ti coils? Performance, flavor, longevity?

So far, I haven't figured out how to make a coil from it that I consider vapable.

 

[Rossum]

I would love to see a lab test wire residues in e-liquid and vapor but I believe that it's no cheap matter which any one individual can afford

At least one individual here is willing to make a substantial contribution toward the cost of getting that testing done.

 

[CaptSteve]

Wait, why are you still vaping Kanthal if titanium is so much better?

I don't use NR-R-NR anymore in any of my atties so until I find a better substitute to Kanthal I'll continue with Kanthal. If E-smokeguru's plain spooled Ti is the same grade as his NR-R-NR I will certainly try that. I do agree with you over the issue of it's low resistance and you're right probably 24g will be too low.

I did try his NR-R-NR Ti and I must admit it had a much cleaner, purer taste compared to Kanthal. I got the impression that the flavor of the e-liquid came out much better IMHO.

 

[Rossum]

But why we search about the obvious???

Because things that may appear "obvious" are often wrong.

You said that the dose of a material is dangerous. Things are like that of course! But we dont know the dose

Then let's find out!

Also, titanium is used as a heating element rare because a) there is no reason to use an expensive material instead of a cheap one for heating elements and b) titanium doesnt have steady resistance while is heated, something that makes heating elements to not work right

Actually, in many applications, a positive temperature coefficient is considered desirable. As the element heats up, its resistance increases. This allows one to design an element that has a degree of self-regulation with different thermal loadings.

In another life (when I was still smoking) I designed power supplies for industrial furnaces, so heating elements are not much of a mystery to me.

As for the sealed environment and the pictures you posted, dont forget that we are talking about wires that touch our liquid that we inhale and not about just a heating element as in your pics.

Right, they do not touch the liquid we vape, but the elements in the pictures I posted are within a few mm of food we eat and directly in the stream of air we breath respectively. In any case, they are not "sealed".

Look, I understand that English is not your first language. It isn't mine either. But it is the language we are conversing in and words like "rust" and "sealed" mean very specific things.

Ros, you have the wrong impression about me. I dont delete serious posts, I only delete posts irrelevant with the subject and posts that insult people. Maybe because you think like that about me, thats why you made that post?

Well, you deleted a large number of posts before I saw them, so I can only speculate why you might have deleted them.

Again, my problem with this whole thread is not that you are advocating the use of titanium wires; it is that you are implying that the alternatives are "unhealthy" and/or "dangerous" without providing any evidence. You keep resorting to, "it's obvious". Well, no, IMO it isn't obvious.

 

[ZeroOhms]

Ok. We are heading in the right direction. Let's keep at it and maybe we will end up with something very useful.
To sum up:
- Spools of Ti are available for lower cost. So "high cost" factor can be removed from the argument. (all pre-made coils are expensive even Kanthal compared to spooled wires)
- Oxidation rate varies quite a bit depending on Ti grade. So we need to use the "right" grade. (Capt)
- Resistance level can be too low to build a coil with reasonable level of wraps. (Rossum)
- ESG Ready made Ti "could" have the right combination to address these issues. To be confirmed by people using them.

We are yet to get the feedbacks on
- Is the heat distribution better for performance and flavor?
- Any potential of "metallic" taste which is common on some of Kanthal coils?
- Is it easier/harder to wrap coils?
- I am really hoping that it does better in the "gunk department"

I am kicking myself for not including some Ti wires in last order.

 

[soulseek]

It's been mentioned a few times already that Ti wires don't have the same metallic taste.

 

[Zanzibar]

Yep, that's the stuff I've been doing my testing with.

Now if Imeo truly believes that titanium is safer and actually wants people to use it, he'll leave your link up.

Honestly supprised it wasn't, lol. And, ZeroOhms, don't go buying up all my wire, haven't had a chance to order my own spool yet ;P

 

[Zanzibar]

What gauge Ti are you testing with Rossum? Using Steam Engine with Vwls's chart I've found that 30 ga with a 25/24 coil and a 2mm ID you get 1.8 Ohms (using default coil spacing of 0.01mm and 0mm total leg length) which should make a coil with at total width of 6.3mm.

Here's a link to the specific test I ran: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

EDIT: Another thing to keep in mind is how using different coiling techniques (twisting, braiding, parallel, and sequencing) can alter the final Ohms. To be honest I have no clue what changes they make and looking around hasn't dug up any definitive answers, if someone would be kind enough to explain I'd be highly grateful. I know some setups will multiply the end result while others will divide but now clue as to which or how lol